Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[Runefyre]

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

 

RE: Ultramarines vs Night Lords, this is from the timeline document that we've compiled as the HH bible for all GW departments. Taken from a sideways reference in ADB's novels.

 

216.M31                  The Ultramarines and their Successor Chapters symbolically reform the XIII Legion in order to drive the Night Lords from Tsagualsa

 

RE: 'Inferno', it feels like a lot of people are hoping that this will be the great return to the days of when Dan's depiction of the VI was new and bright and exciting. Alan Bligh and his team have said at TWO events now, that they aren't following 'Prospero Burns' any more than any other source.

 

(Also, and I know this is an unpopular truth here for some reason, the background in those books is deliberately written to be a potentially unreliable narrator - the mysterious "A.K." So it's no more "true" than any other historical essay, written by the victors...)

Well that's....depressing. So was it a waste of money to even buy it? Tbh I don't grasp why everybody's up in arms over the "executioner" moniker like it means the Wolves are better than everybody else. The Wolves die like red-shirts in star trek when the Battle of Prospero comes around. If anybody is "too strong" it's the Thousand Sons (which is a little easier to explain, I'll admit).

[HeritorA]

Yes the Ultramarines performed admirably at the walls of Terra.

LOL

 

The Traitor Legions were utterly defeated by the Ultramarines during the scouring.

 

That Chaos bloke from TTOH even remarks upon that fact.

And their successors and SW too

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Isn't everyone secretly and alpha legion member anyway?

[LaurieJGoulding]

 

Well that's....depressing. So was it a waste of money to even buy it?

 

Come on now, you guys have already done this on here. ADB put this argument down at the time, so let's just leave it there...

 

The A.K. narrator thing has been very clear since Book 1. Is it a waste of money? No. Why must it be so binary? Do you really see them as diminished in value just because the content is subjective? Are you buying these books so you can have complete knowledge of everything in the world, from an unbiased, god's-eye view? Or are you buying an exciting, evocative background for your toy soldier universe? Because that's what they are, across every department of GW.

 

The rules are the rules, plain and simple. The scenarios are the scenarios, designed to help you enjoy the rules.

 

The background of the FW books is subjective, and always deliberately shown as being an in-character essay by the mysterious A.K. That has ALWAYS been the case. You're not reading the words of Alan Bligh, Neil Wylie, Andy Hoare, John French and Emma Ayres - you're reading the scribed account of a loyalist who claimed to have been there at the time.

[HeritorA]

Don't quote rumour-mongers like they are real people...

 

And Andrey, settle down. As I've told you about nine times, a novel is anything 40,000 words or longer. 'The Beast Arises' and 'The Primarchs' were commissioned at 50,000 words, and most of them are about 10% longer, give or take. 'The Horus Heresy' tends to be 90,000+ but there are exceptions: 'Tallarn: Ironclad', 'The Honoured', 'The Unburdened', 'Sons of the Forge'. Cost of production has LITERALLY nothing to do with these decisions, so hush up and eat your vegetables.

 

Now, every time you complain about book length, I'm going to get Dan to add another week onto his writing time for 'The Warmaster'...

Point taken - shutting down logic congitators

 

Lady Atia is a dude. EVERYTHING you have been told is a lie.

Alpharius has been shaming :)

 

There were only 23,000 Ultramarines left at the end of the Heresy...

And you get that info from?...

[HeritorA]

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

What Laurie said. He is always an amazing fella to chat with. And he knows more about timelines then we all combined.

And of course SW blunted their teets - Prospero, Alaxxes, then attack on Horus (who expected it and prepared, so wolves suffered major defeat) and later Yarant.

Wolves are depleted to the point of 2-3 companies for sure, don't think that they have more than 15k legion. left. And they never had big numbers as Forge World stated to us.

 

Don't really see how SW are faring worse than other loyalist legions

 

Every loyalist legion has taken a beating up to now

 

DA - Tied up at Thramas, need a magical xenos tech to win

 

WS - Lose half their fleet making it back to Terra

 

IF - Have their Solar and Terran defenses humiliatingly compromised by the AL

 

BA - Savaged at Signus

 

IH - Istvaan

 

UM - Mauled by the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar

 

Sallies - Istvaan

 

RG - Istvaan

 

SW - Win at Prospero, lose at Alaxxes (of course they do), lose at Yarant (even more of a given)

 

We have no idea how Russ is wounded at Yarant. I doubt he fights Horus and survives.

He wounded in fight with Horus - Yarant goes after.

 

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

 

RE: Ultramarines vs Night Lords, this is from the timeline document that we've compiled as the HH bible for all GW departments. Taken from a sideways reference in ADB's novels.

 

216.M31                  The Ultramarines and their Successor Chapters symbolically reform the XIII Legion in order to drive the Night Lords from Tsagualsa

 

RE: 'Inferno', it feels like a lot of people are hoping that this will be the great return to the days of when Dan's depiction of the VI was new and bright and exciting. Alan Bligh and his team have said at TWO events now, that they aren't following 'Prospero Burns' any more than any other source.

 

(Also, and I know this is an unpopular truth here for some reason, the background in those books is deliberately written to be a potentially unreliable narrator - the mysterious "A.K." So it's no more "true" than any other historical essay, written by the victors...)

 

Yes, they are following PB - but it is about Prospero razing after all. So something of the wolves 'executioners' behavior. A.K - hmmmm, so whom that would be I wonder ;)

 

That moment when you guys don't realize you've been trolled for the past two pages, and have continued trying to debate him lul

Why not - it's always funny with popcorn and beer :)

[b1soul]

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

Strikes me as very odd that some SW fans insist PB is an objective declaration of SW superiority

[LaurieJGoulding]

Exactly. It's really, really not.

 

That's like saying the "Would you like to know more?" videos from 'Starship Troopers' are an accurate representation of the history and politics of the war against the Bugs...

[Runefyre]

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

I actually really like that perspective. Thank you.

 

However, it would be nice to see an example of why Horus thought they were a threat. Because it seems we can't even have one book (Prospero Burns) that shows the Wolves actually doing well without certain individuals crying "special snowflake" status.

[Mellow]

Exactly. It's really, really not.

 

That's like saying the "Would you like to know more?" videos from 'Starship Troopers' are an accurate representation of the history and politics of the war against the Bugs...

What?! I'm crushed.

[Sete]

 

 

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

I actually really like that perspective. Thank you.

 

However, it would be nice to see an example of why Horus thought they were a threat. Because it seems we can't even have one book (Prospero Burns) that shows the Wolves actually doing well without certain individuals crying "special snowflake" status.

That's 40k backlash I assume.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You'd think so, but even mention "Emperors executioners" as a joke and see posters foaming at the keyboard

[LaurieJGoulding]

See, this is the problem - if we show the SW as SUPER-MEGA AWESOME, we get a whole load of complaints from non-SW fans. If we show them as NOT SUPER-MEGA AWESOME, we get a whole of different complaints from SW fans...

 

If we show them as average, typical, just like any Legion with ups and downs, we seem to get complaints from both sides.

 

It happens with all the Legions, but for some reason SW is the most polarising.

 

I actually thought the SW were tedious and semi-comedy before I read 'Wolf King', 'Leman Russ: The Great Wolf' and 'Howl of the Hearthworld'. It was their flawed nature that makes them interesting, to me.

[Sete]

SW is suffering from the Ultramarines effect.

When back in the day Ultras were the bestest of all and everyone wanted to be ultramarines.

Now SW are at the forefront, and are receiving attention, people that like and dislike them will be more vocal about it.

[Marshal Rohr]

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

 

My quote button isn't working on my phone, bear with me.

 

Don't the Ultramarines and Fists get along with the Wolves? From the last few novels it has seemed like a positive, elder brother relationship between Russ and Guilliman/Dorn. Guilliman considers them part of his Dauntless Few and Dorn doesn't want to ask Russ to stay on Terra because he thinks Russ has a better idea of how to stop Horus, iirc. Of course, I'm not saying the Primarchs feeling would be mirrored by their whole legion, but I always liked the idea Russ and the two classic commander Primarchs got along well. I felt like that harkened back to the old fluff where Russ had lots of success as a strategic commander.

[Runefyre]

SW is suffering from the Ultramarines effect.

When back in the day Ultras were the bestest of all and everyone wanted to be ultramarines.

Now SW are at the forefront, and are receiving attention, people that like and dislike them will be more vocal about it.

Exactly. Except there's only afew books that are rather over-the-top power level wise.

 

Just read the Warzone Fenris series and you'll see the Wolves are anything BUT overpowered, even in 40k.

 

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

My quote button isn't working on my phone, bear with me.

 

Don't the Ultramarines and Fists get along with the Wolves? From the last few novels it has seemed like a positive, elder brother relationship between Russ and Guilliman/Dorn. Guilliman considers them part of his Dauntless Few and Dorn doesn't want to ask Russ to stay on Terra because he thinks Russ has a better idea of how to stop Horus, iirc. Of course, I'm not saying the Primarchs feeling would be mirrored by their whole legion, but I always liked the idea Russ and the two classic commander Primarchs got along well. I felt like that harkened back to the old fluff where Russ had lots of success as a strategic commander.

 

Yeah, well. It seems FW has saw fit to relieve the Wolves of almost all their GC victories, so it seems that's less a thing now.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think Forge World has ever written about the Wolves Great Crusade victories. Book VI portrayed them very positively, and Book III only added to the idea they are different by including them in the 3 special Legions.

[Sete]

Well,I have no interest in WZ Fenris :) (but I read what happened just to keep up with the lore)

Or in any other SM chapter besides Black Templars. Believe me I tried. But I also don't do Templars cause I'm a bit upset for the lack of love we get. Protesting with my wallet.

 

Just giving my opinion from a neutral point of view.

 

But I must say, I like 30k SW more than 40k.

Having a pet wolve, that's cool, riding a wolve not so much xD

 

Just give it some time, and ignore the jabs. It will blow over. Enjoy the love they are getting. ;)

[HeritorA]

Exactly. It's really, really not.

That's like saying the "Would you like to know more?" videos from 'Starship Troopers' are an accurate representation of the history and politics of the war against the Bugs...

But you know that you like to know more

You'd think so, but even mention "Emperors executioners" as a joke and see posters foaming at the keyboard

Ohhh - they will.

SW is suffering from the Ultramarines effect.

When back in the day Ultras were the bestest of all and everyone wanted to be ultramarines.

Now SW are at the forefront, and are receiving attention, people that like and dislike them will be more vocal about it.

Exactly. Except there's only afew books that are rather over-the-top power level wise.

Just read the Warzone Fenris series and you'll see the Wolves are anything BUT overpowered, even in 40k.

RE: 'Prospero Burns', that is a very subjective POV from outsiders within the Legion. They are believing the SW's hype, totally. If we saw the events of the book from someone else's POV, it would look very different, like if there had been an Ultramarine or an Imperial Fist there...

My quote button isn't working on my phone, bear with me.

Don't the Ultramarines and Fists get along with the Wolves? From the last few novels it has seemed like a positive, elder brother relationship between Russ and Guilliman/Dorn. Guilliman considers them part of his Dauntless Few and Dorn doesn't want to ask Russ to stay on Terra because he thinks Russ has a better idea of how to stop Horus, iirc. Of course, I'm not saying the Primarchs feeling would be mirrored by their whole legion, but I always liked the idea Russ and the two classic commander Primarchs got along well. I felt like that harkened back to the old fluff where Russ had lots of success as a strategic commander.

Yeah, well. It seems FW has saw fit to relieve the Wolves of almost all their GC victories, so it seems that's less a thing now.

And you get 'Inferno' on your hands to verify that? Inferno like the previous FW HH books will have a solid block of SW early campaigns and notable engagements. Same with the TS!

I don't think Forge World has ever written about the Wolves Great Crusade victories. Book VI portrayed them very positively, and Book III only added to the idea they are different by including them in the 3 special Legions.

As above - Inferno is a SW book same as TS.

Well,I have no interest in WZ Fenris (but I read what happened just to keep up with the lore)

Or in any other SM chapter besides Black Templars. Believe me I tried. But I also don't do Templars cause I'm a bit upset for the lack of love we get. Protesting with my wallet.

Just giving my opinion from a neutral point of view.

But I must say, I like 30k SW more than 40k.

Having a pet wolve, that's cool, riding a wolve not so much xD

Just give it some time, and ignore the jabs. It will blow over. Enjoy the love they are getting.

Riding a big hairy wolf. And people ask why SW are comical

[Runefyre]

Well,I have no interest in WZ Fenris (but I read what happened just to keep up with the lore)

Or in any other SM chapter besides Black Templars. Believe me I tried. But I also don't do Templars cause I'm a bit upset for the lack of love we get. Protesting with my wallet.

Just giving my opinion from a neutral point of view.

But I must say, I like 30k SW more than 40k.

Having a pet wolve, that's cool, riding a wolve not so much xD

Just give it some time, and ignore the jabs. It will blow over. Enjoy the love they are getting.

Riding a big hairy wolf. And people ask why SW are comical

I don't. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and even though I'm not terribly partial to certain aspects of current SW's fluff it is well within reason for those who do to expect a measure of respect from those who don't. We're all grown ups here, we shouldn't lower ourselves to ridicule other folks' favoured faction.

[Scribe]

 

 

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

I actually really like that perspective. Thank you.

 

However, it would be nice to see an example of why Horus thought they were a threat. Because it seems we can't even have one book (Prospero Burns) that shows the Wolves actually doing well without certain individuals crying "special snowflake" status.

They should never have 'done well' at Prospero.

 

The whole point of Prospero was to push the Sons into Horus' camp, and to shatter the wolves.

 

The filling out of the background has not changed that.

[Sete]

Runefyre, we all all grown ups, but the moment I see people trying to cheese away every codex kills that notion for me xD.

We all are grown ups except when it's about our little plastic soldiers :P

[HeritorA]

Runefyre, we all all grown ups, but the moment I see people trying to cheese away every codex kills that notion for me xD.

We all are grown ups except when it's about our little plastic soldiers

And painting skills

[Runefyre]

Runefyre, we all all grown ups, but the moment I see people trying to cheese away every codex kills that notion for me xD.

We all are grown ups except when it's about our little plastic soldiers

haha true enough lol

[Runefyre]

 

 

The Scouring begins, at least in theory, when the traitors are routed at Terra. That's in late 014.M31.

 

The Second Founding begins, on paper, in 021.M31. That's after the traitors have been completely driven back and Guilliman has returned to Terra, to take charge of the High Lords.

 

(Guilliman gets his throat cut in 121.M31, and the Third Founding is sometime around the turn of 000.M32, at Dorn's command. Unrelated, but good for context.)

 

As for the Wolves, I think there's a lot more to them. They certainly believe their own hype, and Russ totally made the title of Executioner his own. (I like the idea that he claimed it, and no one dared to oppose, even though it's not an actual job!) But I like the idea that they are one of the few Legions with a bit of a sense of humour, but not when their honour is at stake.

 

I wonder if they "blunted their teeth" by taking on all the biggest and most horrible foes. That gives them a sense of strength, alongside a sense of tragedy. They couldn't possibly keep that up forever - not even Russ himself.

 

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

 

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

I actually really like that perspective. Thank you.

 

However, it would be nice to see an example of why Horus thought they were a threat. Because it seems we can't even have one book (Prospero Burns) that shows the Wolves actually doing well without certain individuals crying "special snowflake" status.

They should never have 'done well' at Prospero.

 

The whole point of Prospero was to push the Sons into Horus' camp, and to shatter the wolves.

 

The filling out of the background has not changed that.

 

When I say "did well" I don't mean "curbstomped the enemy". I mean that the fight was fair and awesome for both sides (because in warhammer there are fans on both sides of every single engagement).

 

I don't deny that Horus used the Wolves to shatter/turn both the Tsons and Wolves at the same time (and in doing so became a pawn of Tzeentch to bring the already doomed Tsons into his fold). I merely want the conflict to be awesome for both sides, i.e. the Tsons valiantly defending Prospero with all they've got even though they're outgunned by the combined forces of the Wolves, Custodes, SoS, Legion Mortis. Or the Wolves actually surviving a full assault of a Legion homeworld (no small feat).