Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[Mellow]

The problem is that all the fans of their own favourite Legions all want their favourite Legions to be super special snowflakes. But Legions are not super or special. They are all the same.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That's...

 

Forget it. I'm tapping out of this conversation.

[LJF]

Honestly, its all Prospero Burns' fault. That book was so poorly done in setting expectations its taken how many years to correct?

No Legion should ever have been elevated, the concept of the Wolves being the Executioners of other legions was a mistake.

1. PB wasn't even an actual SW novel, there wasn't that much there that I as a fan was pleased about, but unfortunatelly it's the best one we've got

2. There was some serious "clarifying" going on after that regarding the SW no other legion has suffered from. No matter how you slice it that just isn't cool

Rather than something for SW fans to get upset about, I think the fact that they have taken some high-profile beatings in the Heresy actually makes them more impressive, because BY GUM, they still come out swinging! They can be mauled to within an inch of their lives, facing almost total destruction, and yet still be something that Horus himself fears enough to try and hurry the endgame of the Siege of Terra.

That's not weakness. That's a KILLER reputation.

It all sounds nice and good when you write it like this on the forums but it wasn't represented like that in the books at all. It seems that their current state in HH was probably the worst possibility picked. Over the years I came across no source that stated they were constantly losing like this. The only available informations were some vague descriptions of the Prospero battle and them not being able to reach Terra because they were held up by AL.

The reason why they had only one successor chapter was because A they said to Guilliman and his codex and B they were a smaller legion to begin with

[LaurieJGoulding]

Runefyre, we all all grown ups, but the moment I see people trying to cheese away every codex kills that notion for me xD.

We all are grown ups except when it's about our little plastic soldiers

[Sete]

The problem is that all the fans of their own favourite Legions all want their favourite Legions to be super special snowflakes. But Legions are not super or special. They are all the same.

The Imperium would be a better place if the only legion was the Ultramarines. Everyone else is a bit rubbish and has no idea how to empire build.

 

[LaurieJGoulding]

The reason why they had only one successor chapter was because A they said to Guilliman and his codex and B they were a smaller legion to begin with

They only have 2,000 guys? No wonder they get pimp-slapped by everyone, in every single book...

I think you might be taking a Codex entry from a few years ago, mixing in a little bit of internet wisdom, viewing it through a half-finished novel series and proclaiming that you can see all the way to the horizon, here. Let's just wait and see before saying that GW and the authors have gotten it wrong, and only the fans truly understand the IP.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

But they are astartee sith lords each in their own right. (Believe they are jedi but then *something something DARK SIDE*
 

[Scribe]

I still dont get it, the only way the protestations saying the SW have not had a fair shake make sense, is if the expectations where not correct in the first place.

 

Did the Thousand Sons get smashed, shattered to the point where they had to drop back into the Eye of Terror and actually go down to 1000 marines?

 

Yes, yes they did.

 

Did the Wolves come out far better by comparison, before 2 betrayals beat them up even further?

 

Yes, yes they did.

 

So not only did the wolves complete their objective and terminate a legion (for all intents and purposes, they where a 'Shattered Legion' at that point) but they did so requiring 2 further beat downs to arrive at a 'broken' state themselves.

 

You all can argue all day that the novels did not do them justice, but from a setting perspective, they did exactly as they should have, and did it well.

 

At this point, I just dont understand what the complaint could be unless it IS 'we didnt get to look awesome enough in ''our'' book'. Which would still confuse me actually, because in the action scenes, the Wolves did fine, and you all got your specials names and all that cultural stuff, so you dont even have to be called Space Wolves anymore and you can run around calling yourselves the Rout.

 

Honestly, whats the problem here? Canonically Wolves did 1 major thing in the Heresy, that was done, accomplished, and they where shattered after it. Its the same as my issue with ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL the words put towards the Shattered Legions. Fine for the fans of those Legions I guess, but shattered is shattered.

[helterskelter]

One "win" without moral (or any) ambiguity I think is the issue.

Like spiderman said "Everybody gets one"

Like the lion gets to do all the time because he's super Loyal :devil:

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I hear the Lion is the Most loyal...........according to dark angels.

[Legatus]

The reason why they had only one successor chapter was because A they said to Guilliman and his codex and B they were a smaller legion to begin with

They only have 2,000 guys? No wonder they get pimp-slapped by everyone, in every single book...

I think you might be taking a Codex entry from a few years ago, mixing in a little bit of internet wisdom, viewing it through a half-finished novel series and proclaiming that you can see all the way to the horizon, here. Let's just wait and see before saying that GW and the authors have gotten it wrong, and only the fans truly understand the IP.

Well, yes, he seems to be referencing the Codex Space Wolves. And in the 5th Edition Codex the Legions were still described as 10,000 strong, with the Space Wolves being known as one of the smallest Legions. Obviously with the BL change of the Legion size to 100,000 the explanation of them having been a small legion no longer makes sense. BL will have to provide a different explanation for why the Space Wolves only produced a single Successor Chapter. Perhaps something like refusing an Imperial decree. Or maybe only very few Space Wolves made it back out of the Eye of Terror after pursuing the traitors into it.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think the Prospero, Alaxxes, Yarant arc kind of explains why there's only a few thousand left. If the losses at all three engagements were comparable to the Fists who were a similarly sized small Legions (98K recorded at the outbreak of the Heresy), then it lines up pretty well with the three successors the Fists broke into.

 

I think there was a misconception when all this started that larger Legions meant more legionaries left at the end of the Heresy, but FW has been pretty clear the casualty figures are staggering. Something like 3000 Salamanders survived Isstvan and that mice with the detachments not present is all they had for the next seven years of continuous fighting (not taking into account new recruits, of course).

[Sete]

Think there is at least 5 if second founding sucessors.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think I am not in a position to comment on exact numbers of anything. I'm speaking in broad generalizations. We know from the Apocrypha how many successors the Apocrypha lists. It could be more, it could be less. It's like the King James Bible. It's just the information I have at hand that I can digest and use for conversation.

[DarkChaplain]

Think there is at least 5 if second founding sucessors.

 

As per The Beast Arises, we know for sure there's Fists Exemplar, Excoriators, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, Crimson Fists. So 5 seems accurate for the information we have.

[Scribe]

One "win" without moral (or any) ambiguity I think is the issue.

Like spiderman said "Everybody gets one"

Like the lion gets to do all the time because he's super Loyal

Why? Whats the point?

Moral ambiguity is the name of the game.

[Arkangilos]

I think we shouldn't base our numbers as hard coded based on an incomplete list that is even stated as being incomplete an inaccurate. It's entirely possible that the chapters do have more successors than we originally believed.

 

You also have to remember that the legions would still be recruiting to some degree.

[Legatus]

We know from the Apocrypha how many successors the Apocrypha lists. It could be more, it could be less.

 

That the Imperial Fists created specifically two Second Founding Successor Chapters is not just taken from the "Apocrypha" Successor listing, it is also frequently explained in the Imperial Fists' Chapter history.

 

E.g. the 6th Edition Codex Space Marines:

 

"Only at the brink, when the newly founded Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle, did Dorn realise that his self-imposed quest for vengeance had blinded him to wisdom. So it was that Dorn finally relented and agreed to the founding of two new Chapters from his Legion - the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars."

- 6th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 42

 

That particular passage is a repeat from the 4th Edition Codex Black Templars, page 6.

 

It was also described explicitly in the Crimson Fists' Index Astartes article:

 

"The matter came to a head when the Imperial Fists' strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. To his eternal credit, Rogal Dorn relented rather than plunge the Imperium into another bitter, internecine war. As did his brother Primarchs, he divided his legion into three Chapters: the die-hard followers of the Primarch retaining the livery and title of the Imperial Fists, the more zealous brethren becoming the Black Templars, and the more recently initiated and level-headed members, the Crimson Fists."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Crimson Fists

 

So it was fairly definitively described that the Imperial Fists split into those particular three Chapters. But after the introduction of the "Templars" formation within the Imperial Fists Legion it already seems very likely that some of the details of the Imperial Fists' Second Founding will be retconned, so why not rewrite the entire thing while they are at it.

[LaurieJGoulding]

BL has already justified it - I think everyone is sort of just waiting for the last few vocal fans to accept it, and move on.

 

I really don't accept the "well this Codex from X years ago says Y". If the more recent publications contradict it, you have two choices:

 

1) Accept the new one

2) Consider WHY there's a contradiction, and look for the storytelling opportunities in there

 

BL don't make this stuff up - most often, GW makes changes and BL has to justify it. Or sometimes authors go too far in the world-building... and yet still the publishers get the flak. If a book is a success then the author is heralded as a genius, and if it's not then it's the publisher's fault?

 

I've made my peace with that. My job for the past six years has been to make all this madness and made-up toy soldier fluff make sense.

 

(One of the ideas I've had for my video blog thing in 2017 is "the hierarchy of canon", talking about exactly this sort of thing. I'm definitely thinking it might be useful.)

 

EDIT: On their own, the 'Index Astartes' articles are not canon anymore, especially where they contradict more recent stuff. Sorry.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

We know from the Apocrypha how many successors the Apocrypha lists. It could be more, it could be less.

That the Imperial Fists created specifically two Second Founding Successor Chapters is not just taken from the "Apocrypha" Successor listing, it is also frequently explained in the Imperial Fists' Chapter history.

 

E.g. the 6th Edition Codex Space Marines:

 

"Only at the brink, when the newly founded Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle, did Dorn realise that his self-imposed quest for vengeance had blinded him to wisdom. So it was that Dorn finally relented and agreed to the founding of two new Chapters from his Legion - the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars."

- 6th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 42

That particular passage is a repeat from the 4th Edition Codex Black Templars, page 6.

 

It was also described explicitly in the Crimson Fists' Index Astartes article:

 

"The matter came to a head when the Imperial Fists' strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy. To his eternal credit, Rogal Dorn relented rather than plunge the Imperium into another bitter, internecine war. As did his brother Primarchs, he divided his legion into three Chapters: the die-hard followers of the Primarch retaining the livery and title of the Imperial Fists, the more zealous brethren becoming the Black Templars, and the more recently initiated and level-headed members, the Crimson Fists."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Crimson Fists

So it was fairly definitively described that the Imperial Fists split into those particular three Chapters. But after the introduction of the "Templars" formation within the Imperial Fists Legion it already seems very likely that some of the details of the Imperial Fists' Second Founding will be retconned, so why not rewrite the entire thing while they are at it.

I'm just saying, for the sake of discussion and relevant to the Apocrypha. It sounds like LG is saying that all these thing will be fleshed out in the near future, but I may be reading to much into it. I'm not particularly concerned about it because I'll probably not adhere to the new Templar fluff when I restart my guy's and go full fledged JJ Abrams alternative reality with their background to avoid any conflicts with the new lore for them.

[Scribe]

LG (if I may, ADB is easy to phone type.. ) I would love some discussion on canon.

 

While there are those who pick and choose, and those who hold it all to be true, your view on it would be a good data point.

[Legatus]

BL has already justified it - I think everyone is sort of just waiting for the last few vocal fans to accept it, and move on.

 

I really don't accept the "well this Codex from X years ago says Y". If the more recent publications contradict it, you have two choices:

 

1) Accept the new one

2) Consider WHY there's a contradiction, and look for the storytelling opportunities in there

 

BL don't make this stuff up - most often, GW makes changes and BL has to justify it. Or sometimes authors go too far in the world-building... and yet still the publishers get the flak. If a book is a success then the author is heralded as a genius, and if it's not then it's the publisher's fault?

 

I've made my peace with that. My job for the past six years has been to make all this madness and made-up toy soldier fluff make sense.

 

(One of the ideas I've had for my video blog thing in 2017 is "the hierarchy of canon", talking about exactly this sort of thing. I'm definitely thinking it might be useful.)

 

EDIT: On their own, the 'Index Astartes' articles are not canon anymore, especially where they contradict more recent stuff. Sorry.

 

Oh, I'll go for the author if a particular book contains some questionable material. In the case of the 100,000 strong Legions that was something that came up with the Horus Heresy series (or the Collected Visions book before that), but then certain 5th Edition Warhammer 40,000 sourcebooks still described the 10,000 strong Legions after the HH series had already made up its mind on the matter (IIRC it was not fully decided in the beginning). So that particular matter looked like a difference between GW WH40K and BL HH to an outsider.

 

 

As I have elaborated on earlier occasions, I will take an older WH40K source over a newer BL or WF source. The Warhammer 40K game is released and marketed in something like 10+ language regions all over the world. In comparison, the Black Library material is only released in something like 3 languages (at least the last time I checked, which was one or two years ago, so maybe they have increased the range by now) , and the HH series in particular was not released in my native language for the first few years, IIRC. Forgeworld material is only released in english, unless I am mistaken. Myself and I am sure many WH40K fans all over the world do speak english, but there are many others who do not. So I am not a fan of the notion that those that do not speak english are somehow denied the "true" canon material, and have to make due with the "lesser" or "outdated" material that GW has released in their language. So as far as I care, the Warhammer 40K game system and its sourcebooks are the "core" of the Warhammer 40K lore, while the Black Library and Forgeworld material is optional extensions. And "core" lore can only be superceded by newer "core" releases.

[Scribe]

Yes, this will go just as planned. :)

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

BL has already justified it - I think everyone is sort of just waiting for the last few vocal fans to accept it, and move on.

 

I really don't accept the "well this Codex from X years ago says Y". If the more recent publications contradict it, you have two choices:

 

1) Accept the new one

2) Consider WHY there's a contradiction, and look for the storytelling opportunities in there

 

BL don't make this stuff up - most often, GW makes changes and BL has to justify it. Or sometimes authors go too far in the world-building... and yet still the publishers get the flak. If a book is a success then the author is heralded as a genius, and if it's not then it's the publisher's fault?

 

I've made my peace with that. My job for the past six years has been to make all this madness and made-up toy soldier fluff make sense.

 

(One of the ideas I've had for my video blog thing in 2017 is "the hierarchy of canon", talking about exactly this sort of thing. I'm definitely thinking it might be useful.)

 

EDIT: On their own, the 'Index Astartes' articles are not canon anymore, especially where they contradict more recent stuff. Sorry.

Oh, I'll go for the author if a particular book contains some questionable material. In the case of the 100,000 strong Legions that was something that came up with the Horus Heresy series (or the Collected Visions book before that), but then certain 5th Edition Warhammer 40,000 sourcebooks still described the 10,000 strong Legions after the HH series had already made up its mind on the matter (IIRC it was not fully decided in the beginning). So that particular matter looked like a difference between GW WH40K and BL HH to an outsider.

 

 

As I have elaborated on earlier occasions, I will take an older WH40K source over a newer BL or WF source. The Warhammer 40K game is released and marketed in something like 10+ language regions all over the world. In comparison, the Black Library material is only released in something like 3 languages (at least the last time I checked, which was one or two years ago, so maybe they have increased the range by now) , and the HH series in particular was not released in my native language for the first few years, IIRC. Forgeworld material is only released in english, unless I am mistaken. Myself and I am sure many WH40K fans all over the world do speak english, but there are many others who do not. So I am not a fan of the notion that those that do not speak english are somehow denied the "true" canon material, and have to make due with the "lesser" or "outdated" material that GW has released in their language. So as far as I care, the Warhammer 40K game system and its sourcebooks are the "core" of the Warhammer 40K lore, while the Black Library and Forgeworld material is optional extensions. And "core" lore can only be superceded by newer "core" releases.

Legs, it's common knowledge true enlightenment is only available to English speakers. That's why all the great Chinese and Arab mathematicians wrote in English.

[mc warhammer]

 

whenever abnett writes a legion, whether it's lunar wolves, space wolves, alpha legion or ultramarines- the book itself always paints that particular legion as the best of the best.

 

I somehow must have completely missed that in 'Know No Fear' where the Word bearers succeed at Calth and Guilliman is beaten up by Kor Phaeron, or 'Unremembered Empire' where a Space Wolves squad and Vulkan have to protect Guilliman's mom and Guilliman is beaten up by a squad of Alpha Legionaries.

 

sure, let me clarify; the "best of the best" imo isn't about always winning a battle/never getting beat up (and to be fair, no legion would have fared better than the ultramarines in their place at calth. some might even have come out worse). the SoH didn't do so well on the world of murder in "horus rising" either. it's more a thematic presentation of that particular legion;  those books really played up the strengths of each legion and the idea that (from their pov) they had something special that no other legion did. taken as a whole, i never really understood the allegations of elitism leveled at the SW or AL. we're all the heroes of our own life stories.

 

"unremembered empire" is the exception there, but i didn't really consider that an ultramarines book in the same way as "know no fear".

 

as for the "over correction" of the course that some people see with the SW getting whittled down and two depictions of their primarch physically beaten, couldn't the same be said of other legions at the forefront of the war? WS and ultras for instance.