Weregeld what happened to Russ? *spoilers*

[mc warhammer]

 

BL has already justified it - I think everyone is sort of just waiting for the last few vocal fans to accept it, and move on.

 

I really don't accept the "well this Codex from X years ago says Y". If the more recent publications contradict it, you have two choices:

 

1) Accept the new one

2) Consider WHY there's a contradiction, and look for the storytelling opportunities in there

 

BL don't make this stuff up - most often, GW makes changes and BL has to justify it. Or sometimes authors go too far in the world-building... and yet still the publishers get the flak. If a book is a success then the author is heralded as a genius, and if it's not then it's the publisher's fault?

 

I've made my peace with that. My job for the past six years has been to make all this madness and made-up toy soldier fluff make sense.

 

(One of the ideas I've had for my video blog thing in 2017 is "the hierarchy of canon", talking about exactly this sort of thing. I'm definitely thinking it might be useful.)

 

EDIT: On their own, the 'Index Astartes' articles are not canon anymore, especially where they contradict more recent stuff. Sorry.

 

Oh, I'll go for the author if a particular book contains some questionable material. In the case of the 100,000 strong Legions that was something that came up with the Horus Heresy series (or the Collected Visions book before that), but then certain 5th Edition Warhammer 40,000 sourcebooks still described the 10,000 strong Legions after the HH series had already made up its mind on the matter (IIRC it was not fully decided in the beginning). So that particular matter looked like a difference between GW WH40K and BL HH to an outsider.

 

 

As I have elaborated on earlier occasions, I will take an older WH40K source over a newer BL or WF source. The Warhammer 40K game is released and marketed in something like 10+ language regions all over the world. In comparison, the Black Library material is only released in something like 3 languages (at least the last time I checked, which was one or two years ago, so maybe they have increased the range by now) , and the HH series in particular was not released in my native language for the first few years, IIRC. Forgeworld material is only released in english, unless I am mistaken. Myself and I am sure many WH40K fans all over the world do speak english, but there are many others who do not. So I am not a fan of the notion that those that do not speak english are somehow denied the "true" canon material, and have to make due with the "lesser" or "outdated" material that GW has released in their language. So as far as I care, the Warhammer 40K game system and its sourcebooks are the "core" of the Warhammer 40K lore, while the Black Library and Forgeworld material is optional extensions. And "core" lore can only be superceded by newer "core" releases.

 

 

i can understand this, but can someone clarify for me: my assumption is that anything published by BL or FW would eventually find its way or be reflected in WH40k game fiction as well? if not now, then in the near future?

[Scribe]

Who knows, look at the train wreck that happened to the Iron Hands after Wrath of Iron.

[mc warhammer]

Who knows, look at the train wreck that happened to the Iron Hands after Wrath of Iron.

 

i'm not familiar with it?

[Scribe]

Did you read wrath of iron? If not its essentially the definition of 40K, I would put it against any 40K book, and most HH books.

 

It painted a grim picture, especially of the Iron Hands, and the denial, and fear, of failure. An amazing book.

 

The 7th edition Iron hands Supplement or Codex, I'll have to check, then pulled a 180.

 

The flesh was not weak, the IH chapter needed to embrace their feelings instead!

 

So yeah, while there may be some back and forth, GW and BL are not always on the page much to the sadness and dismay of us all...

[Legatus]

i can understand this, but can someone clarify for me: my assumption is that anything published by BL or FW would eventually find its way or be reflected in WH40k game fiction as well? if not now, then in the near future?

 

It might, or it might not. The 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves still adhered to the smaller Legion sizes, even after the larger Legions had already been described in the HH series. The 5th Edition Codex Grey Knights then went and described some four hundred Chapters created in the Second Founding, so was based on the new larger Legions. But the 6th and 7th Edition Space Marine Codices have gone back to the ~50 known Chapters created in the Second Founding. 40K Codices have only a limited amount of space for lore, and after the 5th Edition Marine Codex the subsequent 6th and then the 7th Edition Codex had much less material. So they might just not have the space to pick up on all of the new BL details.

 

Several years ago a then head editor at BL (George Mann?) was quoted saying that when writing new stories, only GW studio material was canonically binding reference, while BL material was not.

 

A short while after that Dan Abnett was quoted saying that the BL HH series was the absolute authority on what actually canonically happened.

 

Then, a few years ago, Gav Thorpe wrote on his blog explaining that sometimes GW studio writers might deem some BL matrial worthy to accept it into the 40K game lore. Or they might not. (Even though Gav had been arguing for not dismissing any material just based on where it came from.)

 

Not too long ago Aaron Dembski-Bowden has been saying that the three branches (GW/BL/FW) are now essentially "one", and there isn't really any distinction between them and who develops what.

 

To me it still doesn't seem entirely synced. E.g. BLs description of the Alpha Legion was very different from their GW descriptions (not utterly unrecognizable, just taken in a somewhat different direction), but then FW did a pretty good job trying to reconcile the newer description with the older one. But usually Forgeworld seems to be more interested to write about their own Chapters, not the big established ones, so they aren't exactly just an upscaled extension of the popular GW characters and factions. They do their own thing, just in the same universe.

 

The four earlier statements above were all from different stages in the development of the HH series, so probably represent a shifting or evolving paradigm how GW treats such matters of "canon". The one Laurie Goulding is thinking about writing about might be something different alltogether. Or maybe closer to what Aaraon Dembski-Bowden had been telling us earlier.

[bluntblade]

Wrath of Iron is one of Wraight's early works, right?

 

I'd also like to correct the Murder remark - the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children suffered, the forewarned and forearmed Luna Wolves invaded successfully.

[mc warhammer]

Wrath of Iron is one of Wraight's early works, right?

 

I'd also like to correct the Murder remark - the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children suffered, the forewarned and forearmed Luna Wolves invaded successfully.

 

to be clear, i wouldn't (and didn't) use the word "suffered". my memory is that the SoH weren't assured of success and that intervention from the interex prevented any resolution. though i might be wrong, it's been about 10 years since i read that book.

 

as for the stuff scribe (re wrath of iron) and legatus have said about the flow of canon between the different publications, it's interesting to hear as a BL only reader. isn't the official line from GW that "it's all true anyway"?

[Scribe]

Yes its one of his early books, and its amazing.

 

Guard, Mechanicum, Titans, and Iron Hands vs a Slaanesh corrupted world. I wont spoil it, I HIGHLY recommend you buy it and read it, tomorrow, if you have not already.

 

It is one, quite easily, one of the greatest 40K books we have, if not the greatest stand alone book.

[bluntblade]

 

Wrath of Iron is one of Wraight's early works, right?

I'd also like to correct the Murder remark - the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children suffered, the forewarned and forearmed Luna Wolves invaded successfully.

 

 

to be clear, i wouldn't (and didn't) use the word "suffered". my memory is that the SoH weren't assured of success and that intervention from the interex prevented any resolution. though i might be wrong, it's been about 10 years since i read that book.

 

as for the stuff scribe (re wrath of iron) and legatus have said about the flow of canon between the different publications, it's interesting to hear as a BL only reader. isn't the official line from GW that "it's all true anyway"?

All I got from Horus Rising was that Murder was a hard war, but with two Primarchs at the helm it was pretty much inevitable that they would finish the job soon.

[Kelborn]

Yes its one of his early books, and its amazing.

 

Guard, Mechanicum, Titans, and Iron Hands vs a Slaanesh corrupted world. I wont spoil it, I HIGHLY recommend you buy it and read it, tomorrow, if you have not already.

 

It is one, quite easily, one of the greatest 40K books we have, if not the greatest stand alone book.

Totally agree on this. I was a bit skeptical about it at first as the IH were never interesting to me but Chris proved me wrong.

 

As a standalone book it really excels in giving the reader a true insight of 40K. Even more than some entire series.

 

This book alone is the reason why I'd be curious about a HH depiction of both, IH Legion and Ferrus done by Chris!

[bluntblade]

I always liked the idea of the Iron Hands, hoping to get Meduson fairly soon.

[Plaguecaster]

Regardless of how ones legion has been treated I think most can agree the Iron Hands got the short end of the stick in regards to what happened to Ferrus and how one sided the novel Fulgrim was towards the Emperors children. I'd gladly take every defeat the wolves ever suffered if it meant Ferrus didn't die how he did (I'm a Iron hands fanboy who is in denial)

 

I generally consider everything canon as long as its by FW/ BL/ GW luckily I get distracted easily and forget what is and isn't canon as trying to keep track of everything can be hard some days :D

[LaurieJGoulding]

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "It's not available in my country, therefore it's not applicable" argument.

 

GW is a British company, based in England, writing in English. As a whole, every department does its best to publish and cater for customers in every country... and the ideal would be for us to release everything in every language, simultaneously. But the bottom line is, there's not enough sales in certain countries to justify it. That makes the background a little harder to access for people who don't speak English to a reasonable level. That's not a slight on my part, by the way, it's just being practically minded about this issue. If the sales justified it, GW would translate. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Chicken-and-egg? Sure, but that's the way it is. I don't like it any more than you do.

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

 

Aaaaaand, it's British, produced in England, in English. That means that the majority of the focus (and officialness, and "canon") is primarily in English to begin with, then in French and German second, then pretty much everything else as-and-when after that. Again, not intended as a slight, and I wish it were more universally available.

 

But to say you don't accept it because it's not (widely?) available in your language is like saying the new models of Ford vehicles are not available to buy in your country, and therefore they don't exist.

 

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning at all.

EDIT: I notice that very few people complain about board games companies not translating their products into EVERY SINGLE other language. They're happy to read the game as published, and translate it for themselves.

[mc warhammer]

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "It's not available in my country, therefore it's not applicable" argument.

 

GW is a British company, based in England, writing in English. As a whole, every department does its best to publish and cater for customers in every country... and the ideal would be for us to release everything in every language, simultaneously. But the bottom line is, there's not enough sales in certain countries to justify it. That makes the background a little harder to access for people who don't speak English to a reasonable level. That's not a slight on my part, by the way, it's just being practically minded about this issue. If the sales justified it, GW would translate. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Chicken-and-egg? Sure, but that's the way it is. I don't like it any more than you do.

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

 

Aaaaaand, it's British, produced in England, in English. That means that the majority of the focus (and officialness, and "canon") is primarily in English to begin with, then in French and German second, then pretty much everything else as-and-when after that. Again, not intended as a slight, and I wish it were more universally available.

 

But to say you don't accept it because it's not (widely?) available in your language is like saying the new models of Ford vehicles are not available to buy in your country, and therefore they don't exist.

 

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning at all.

 

EDIT: I notice that very few people complain about board games companies not translating their products into EVERY SINGLE other language. They're happy to read the game as published, and translate it for themselves.

i took it as legs saying it was his head canon. this is getting into if-a-tree-falls-and-nobody-hears-it territory. maybe he could clarify.

 

there's so much 40k and 30k to read, even as a native english speaker myself, i know my picture of the universe is incomplete. i supplement my knowledge through b&c and first exp but even then, i'm sure i only have a fraction of the universe in my head.

 

i don't think that means my experience of the universe is any less rich for it though.

[LaurieJGoulding]

IMHO, that's the right attitude. I know what I know about things that interest me, and I'm aware that there's a lot more that I don't... but it doesn't mean I enjoy any of it any less, or feel that other people shouldn't know more than me.

 

And refuting the source or veracity of that knowledge is pointless.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Even perspective itself is a matter of perspective. If Anything I think obscurity and unintentional ambiguity help to lend realism to writing. If being analytical comes into every facet of reader/writer interpenetration  it can ruin the story telling experience. That is not to say what is being written isn't understandable. Just like Laurie Says, open to cultural interpretation. 

[LaurieJGoulding]

Again, agreed.

[HeritorA]

One "win" without moral (or any) ambiguity I think is the issue.

Like spiderman said "Everybody gets one"

Like the lion gets to do all the time because he's super Loyal

Nothing funny - he is super loyal, and know how to behave. For example - not to bark on their betters. Or trying to to explain the charity and love to a maniac (Laurie whose idea was the Night of the Wolf? We laughted long...)

Think there is at least 5 if second founding sucessors.

As per The Beast Arises, we know for sure there's Fists Exemplar, Excoriators, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, Crimson Fists. So 5 seems accurate for the information we have.

And dozens more - someone reading without attention DC?

I hear the Lion is the Most loyal...........according to dark angels.

'No no no - space puppy the most loyal', - interred into dreadnought insane space dog with father complex.

[Runefyre]

One "win" without moral (or any) ambiguity I think is the issue.

Like spiderman said "Everybody gets one"

Like the lion gets to do all the time because he's super Loyal

Nothing funny - he is super loyal, and know how to behave. For example - not to bark on their betters. Or trying to to explain the charity and love to a maniac (Laurie whose idea was the Night of the Wolf? We laughted long...)

I actually agree with you on that one. I think the Night of the Wolf is a rather stupid idea (at least in my current understanding of the situation). Though contrary to what some claim, it's not because Russ got physically beat (because the evidence is definitely in favour of Russ holding back). I'm just not sure what Russ was hoping to accomplish there considering Angron is just a fountain of philosophical understanding lol.

I hear the Lion is the Most loyal...........according to dark angels.

'No no no - space puppy the most loyal', - interred into dreadnought insane space dog with father complex.

If you want the truth, the Space Wolves are the most loyal legion (I would say tied with the Imperial fists). And Bjorn is anything but insane btw. There's no need to spew Wolf-hate just for the sake of it. I'm really sick of your derogatory monikers.

Regardless of how ones legion has been treated I think most can agree the Iron Hands got the short end of the stick in regards to what happened to Ferrus and how one sided the novel Fulgrim was towards the Emperors children. I'd gladly take every defeat the wolves ever suffered if it meant Ferrus didn't die how he did (I'm a Iron hands fanboy who is in denial)

I generally consider everything canon as long as its by FW/ BL/ GW luckily I get distracted easily and forget what is and isn't canon as trying to keep track of everything can be hard some days

You gotta admit though, the Iron hands can call some pretty badass heroes their own. Not to try and diminish your position on Ferrus though (not being an IH fan myself, I can't fully empathize).

[HeritorA]

IMHO, that's the right attitude. I know what I know about things that interest me, and I'm aware that there's a lot more that I don't... but it doesn't mean I enjoy any of it any less, or feel that other people shouldn't know more than me.

 

And refuting the source or veracity of that knowledge is pointless.

Nothing wrong with English version. We always buy 'english' stuff - almost all of my friends can read/talk and easily translate. So any stones into 'localization' department are solely based on human laziness to study and learn.

'You gotta admit though, the Iron hands can call some pretty badass heroes their own. Not to try and diminish your position on Ferrus though (not being an IH fan myself, I can't fully empathize)'

- totally agree

[Marshal Rohr]

Warhammer 40k: Meant for the discerning young men of Albion. Not colonial peasants or the unwashed continentals.

[LaurieJGoulding]

LOL JOKES.

 

I would hope it's quite obvious that I'm not saying non-Brits can't enjoy Warhammer. I love 'Akira', and 'Battlestar Galactica', and any number of texts from other cultures - but I acknowledge their difference from British culture as being part of what makes them unique. This isn't flag-waving elitism, it's cultural theory.

 

TO RE-ITERATE: Warhammer is British, written in English, and very bleak because of the cultural mindset. It is, however, universal in its potential appeal, to people across every culture and nation. (And I hate that I feel I have to spell that out)

 

===

 

Weirdly, I heard that some frothing idiot online accused me of being racist and/or fascist the other day... Since I am the least racist or fascist that it's possible to be*, I can only assume it was someone lurking on this forum who completely misread my posts about the 40k setting.

 

Saying the word "fascist" does not make one fascist. (In fact, quite the reverse, surely? I thought that was supremely clear to anyone.) I'm not saying that Warhammer 40,000 is an amazing place and I want to live there because it's a fascist state - I was pretty clear that it's a nightmarish dystopia of religious zealotry and Orwellian facelessness.

 

(* = And not least, I'm a pro-Europe, anti-Brexit, fully paid up liberal. I'd rather be hated by right-wingers for that, than mistakenly accused of being racist or fascist.)

[Legatus]

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "It's not available in my country, therefore it's not applicable" argument.

 

GW is a British company, based in England, writing in English. As a whole, every department does its best to publish and cater for customers in every country... and the ideal would be for us to release everything in every language, simultaneously. But the bottom line is, there's not enough sales in certain countries to justify it. That makes the background a little harder to access for people who don't speak English to a reasonable level. That's not a slight on my part, by the way, it's just being practically minded about this issue. If the sales justified it, GW would translate. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Chicken-and-egg? Sure, but that's the way it is. I don't like it any more than you do.

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

 

Aaaaaand, it's British, produced in England, in English. That means that the majority of the focus (and officialness, and "canon") is primarily in English to begin with, then in French and German second, then pretty much everything else as-and-when after that. Again, not intended as a slight, and I wish it were more universally available.

 

But to say you don't accept it because it's not (widely?) available in your language is like saying the new models of Ford vehicles are not available to buy in your country, and therefore they don't exist.

 

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning at all.

 

It is probably more like saying when Ford sells several million silver street cars in countries all over the world and a few thousand range rovers in australia then it would be more accurate to say Ford was the company famous for their silver street cars, and not the company famous for their great range rovers. (Just an example, I have no idea what cars Ford is selling and is most famous for.)

 

I would love to know how many copies of the basic Codex Space Marines (any one edition) were sold worldwide in comparison to how many copies of "Horus Rising" or "Horus Heresy 1: Betrayal" were sold. Unfortunately such numbers are not publicly available, but I would wager that there were probably a great deal more Space Marines Codices sold. So people all over the world who want to know about Space Marines will get their information first from that Codex. But then they might learn in an international Forum that their information is allegedly no longer valid, because a different source book was released in a country on the other side of the globe, in only a very limited number, and not in their own language. In case of Forgeworld those limited source books also come with a considerable price tag.

To say that the material kept behind such a pay/language/limited number wall is the current "true" lore while the somewhat older Codex available worldwide for a reasonable price is superceded by it would be a policy that would be very comprareable to "pay to win", where the basic product is overshadowed by the premium content, whereas if the Codex Space Marines is considered the highest authority and the limited and pricy BL and FW material is optional additions then it would be more like "cosmetics", where the core product is all that is truly essential, but there is some optional "fluff" for those who are interested.

 

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

 

As an aside, that is why I could never really embrace the Tau. The 40K theme is heavily based in grungy sci-fi heavy metal covers (the musical genre, but also the comic magazine), while the Tau seem to come more from star trek or anime mecha in terms of their design and technology. (The Mechanoids of Masamune Shirow seem to be an obvious inspiration, or perhaps they are closer to the 'Heavy Gear' Mechs, which by themselvers where probably inspired by Shirow.)

 

The necrons where visually a better fit (and the concept had been around since Space Crusade, where they were still considered "Chaos Androids"), but their back story changed the scope and perspective of the entire 40K setting, shifted the status of the background factions around too much, devaluing both the Eldar and Chaos in particular.

 

 

- - -

 

Even perspective itself is a matter of perspective. If Anything I think obscurity and unintentional ambiguity help to lend realism to writing. If being analytical comes into every facet of reader/writer interpenetration  it can ruin the story telling experience. That is not to say what is being written isn't understandable. Just like Laurie Says, open to cultural interpretation.

 

Well, some ambiguity is ok, and present in most 40K sources, but even the staunchest proponents of the "loose canon" concept usually qualify that there are some ironclad "facts" of the 40K lore. Things such as the Ultramarines having blue armour, being based on Macragge, and Marneus Calgar being their current Chapter Master in 40K.

The difference between those (like me) who are calling for a "strict canon" and those arguing for a "loose canon" is more about where the line is drawn, with the "strict canon" people wanting to include much more things as being considered "facts" while the others might be more open to dismiss almost every background detail as "maybe true, maybe not", except for some unspecified smaller core of ironclad "facts".

 

For example, it is probably considered "fact" by all sides that the Ultramarines are based on Macragge, and in fact rule over the entire realm of Ultramar. But since it had been described in a number of sources (most notably the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines) I would have considered it as just as much of a "fact" that Ultramar had been essentially the same back during the great crusade as it is still today (minus Prandium). But then BL releases a new book where somehow Ultramar was 500 worlds during the Great Crusade. So now we are to consider the information about the 9 worlds of Ultramar during the Great Crusade as unreliable, faulty historical information. What the earlier Codices told us can no longer be considered accurate.

The rest of the Ultramarines background is still "fact" (blue armour, based in macragge, ruling over Ultramar, Marneus Calgar is Chapter Master). At least until the next BL book where they are based on the world of Astra Roma. Then all the previous information about Macragge will be demoted from "fact" to "unreliable information" as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "It's not available in my country, therefore it's not applicable" argument.

 

GW is a British company, based in England, writing in English. As a whole, every department does its best to publish and cater for customers in every country... and the ideal would be for us to release everything in every language, simultaneously. But the bottom line is, there's not enough sales in certain countries to justify it. That makes the background a little harder to access for people who don't speak English to a reasonable level. That's not a slight on my part, by the way, it's just being practically minded about this issue. If the sales justified it, GW would translate. Self-fulfilling prophecy? Chicken-and-egg? Sure, but that's the way it is. I don't like it any more than you do.

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

 

Aaaaaand, it's British, produced in England, in English. That means that the majority of the focus (and officialness, and "canon") is primarily in English to begin with, then in French and German second, then pretty much everything else as-and-when after that. Again, not intended as a slight, and I wish it were more universally available.

 

But to say you don't accept it because it's not (widely?) available in your language is like saying the new models of Ford vehicles are not available to buy in your country, and therefore they don't exist.

 

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning at all.

It is probably more like saying when Ford sells several million silver street cars in countries all over the world and a few thousand range rovers in australia then it would be more accurate to say Ford was the company famous for their silver street cars, and not the company famous for their great range rovers. (Just an example, I have no idea what cars Ford is selling and is most famous for.)

 

I would love to know how many copies of the basic Codex Space Marines (any one edition) were sold worldwide in comparison to how many copies of "Horus Rising" or "Horus Heresy 1: Betrayal" were sold. Unfortunately such numbers are not publicly available, but I would wager that there were probably a great deal more Space Marines Codices sold. So people all over the world who want to know about Space Marines will get their information first from that Codex. But then they might learn in an international Forum that their information is allegedly no longer valid, because a different source book was released in a country on the other side of the globe, in only a very limited number, and not in their own language. In case of Forgeworld those limited source books also come with a considerable price tag.

To say that the material kept behind such a pay/language/limited number wall is the current "true" lore while the somewhat older Codex available worldwide for a reasonable price is superceded by it would be a policy that would be very comprareable to "pay to win", where the basic product is overshadowed by the premium content, whereas if the Codex Space Marines is considered the highest authority and the limited and pricy BL and FW material is optional additions then it would be more like "cosmetics", where the core product is all that is truly essential, but there is some optional "fluff" for those who are interested.

 

But this material is SOOOOOO British in tone. I think that's why a lot of non-Brits have trouble understanding some of the nuance and bleakness - it's from a different cultural mindset. I can't even begin to articulate how inappropriate I find chibi-40k, and that's not because I dislike the style. It's just not how Warhammer was envisioned.

As an aside, that is why I could never really embrace the Tau. The 40K theme is heavily based in grungy sci-fi heavy metal covers (the musical genre, but also the comic magazine), while the Tau seem to come more from star trek or anime mecha in terms of their design and technology. (The Mechanoids of Masamune Shirow seem to be an obvious inspiration, or perhaps they are closer to the 'Heavy Gear' Mechs, which by themselvers where probably inspired by Shirow.)

 

The necrons where visually a better fit (and the concept had been around since Space Crusade, where they were still considered "Chaos Androids"), but their back story changed the scope and perspective of the entire 40K setting, shifted the status of the background factions around too much, devaluing both the Eldar and Chaos in particular.

 

 

- - -

Even perspective itself is a matter of perspective. If Anything I think obscurity and unintentional ambiguity help to lend realism to writing. If being analytical comes into every facet of reader/writer interpenetration it can ruin the story telling experience. That is not to say what is being written isn't understandable. Just like Laurie Says, open to cultural interpretation.

Well, some ambiguity is ok, and present in most 40K sources, but even the staunchest proponents of the "loose canon" concept usually qualify that there are some ironclad "facts" of the 40K lore. Things such as the Ultramarines having blue armour, being based on Macragge, and Marneus Calgar being their current Chapter Master in 40K.

The difference between those (like me) who are calling for a "strict canon" and those arguing for a "loose canon" is more about where the line is drawn, with the "strict canon" people wanting to include much more things as being considered "facts" while the others might be more open to dismiss almost every background detail as "maybe true, maybe not", except for some unspecified smaller core of ironclad "facts".

 

For example, it is probably considered "fact" by all sides that the Ultramarines are based on Macragge, and in fact rule over the entire realm of Ultramar. But since it had been described in a number of sources (most notably the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines) I would have considered it as just as much of a "fact" that Ultramar had been essentially the same back during the great crusade as it is still today (minus Prandium). But then BL releases a new book where somehow Ultramar was 500 worlds during the Great Crusade. So now we are to consider the information about the 9 worlds of Ultramar during the Great Crusade as unreliable, faulty historical information. What the earlier Codices told us can no longer be considered accurate.

The rest of the Ultramarines background is still "fact" (blue armour, based in macragge, ruling over Ultramar, Marneus Calgar is Chapter Master). At least until the next BL book where they are based on the world of Astra Roma. Then all the previous information about Macragge will be demoted from "fact" to "unreliable information" as well.

If my cursory understanding of markets is correct more people actually buy BL novels than codexes. Because anyone in the world can pop into a bookshop and snag a book because they like it's cover, but I would be tremendously surprised if there are over a million people who buy a codex. TT players are a minuscule community. I'm using the million number as a reference because I think that's the threshold for NYT bestseller.

[HeritorA]

LOL JOKES.

I would hope it's quite obvious that I'm not saying non-Brits can't enjoy Warhammer. I love 'Akira', and 'Battlestar Galactica', and any number of texts from other cultures - but I acknowledge their difference from British culture as being part of what makes them unique. This isn't flag-waving elitism, it's cultural theory.

TO RE-ITERATE: Warhammer is British, written in English, and very bleak because of the cultural mindset. It is, however, universal in its potential appeal, to people across every culture and nation. (And I hate that I feel I have to spell that out)

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Weirdly, I heard that some frothing idiot online accused me of being racist and/or fascist the other day... Since I am the least racist or fascist that it's possible to be*, I can only assume it was someone lurking on this forum who completely misread my posts about the 40k setting.

Saying the word "fascist" does not make one fascist. (In fact, quite the reverse, surely? I thought that was supremely clear to anyone.) I'm not saying that Warhammer 40,000 is an amazing place and I want to live there because it's a fascist state - I was pretty clear that it's a nightmarish dystopia of religious zealotry and Orwellian facelessness.

(* = And not least, I'm a pro-Europe, anti-Brexit, fully paid up liberal. I'd rather be hated by right-wingers for that, than mistakenly accused of being racist or fascist.)

You did found someone who actually has not even a yota of sarcasm? Wow - even me mindblown