Cadia Falls...

[WarriorFish]

There are plenty of Cadians all over the galaxy, so it never would be the end of them. Or at least shouldn't be but from what I've seen who knows? I know GW's lore stuff can leave something to be desired but this reads... poorly. I'll give it all a detailed read when I get more time.

[Frater Cornelius]

Maybe we'll get Cadian Ghosts :O

[Sete]

Or turn the actual survivors of Cadia a bitter and hungry for vegeance veterans.

[Lord Marshal]

Or they'll just Squat them. 

 

I mean it would make Games Workshop about a million times happier if they could produce nothing but Space Marines and only Space Marines, so. 

 

Looking at Age of Sigmar and how if you want to play humans you better darn grab those Sigmarines it wouldn't surprise me. Imperial Guard will exist in the same purgatory as the Empire/Bretonnia, in that you can techncially play them but good luck if you want any actual gameline support for it.

[Inso]

Space marines need stuff to fight against... They won't become exclusive :)

[Brother Talarian]

What do you guys think of there being several scion troops packaged in those big bundles? Simply trying to sell the models, or perhaps something in the pipes for them?

[WarriorFish]

Hard to say, but given the MT codex was a test case for the smaller army book they are deserving of an enhancement. I wouldn't hold your breath at this stage though, just focus on what's in front of you :tu:

[elmo]

Looking at the GW home page it shows the phrase "Save Cadia from annihilation" - I still have hope that Cadia will survive, sorely tested but unbroken.

[Otto von Bludd]

Or they'll just Squat them. 

 

I mean it would make Games Workshop about a million times happier if they could produce nothing but Space Marines and only Space Marines, so. 

 

Looking at Age of Sigmar and how if you want to play humans you better darn grab those Sigmarines it wouldn't surprise me. Imperial Guard will exist in the same purgatory as the Empire/Bretonnia, in that you can techncially play them but good luck if you want any actual gameline support for it.

 

I have a feeling this is what is going to happen but if they don't produce some decent rules for guard soon it is just as well, as much as it pains me to say it.  I've always played guard but after playing with space marines for a while it is painfully apparent just how bad and outdated our codex and formations are. 

[Indefragable]

What do you guys think of there being several scion troops packaged in those big bundles? Simply trying to sell the models, or perhaps something in the pipes for them?

 

Every release of late has had one or two "front window" new models backed by Formations and rules that greatly incentivize (if by offering no other option) kits they want to move.

 

It's really not surprising that Sisters, BT, and Scions are all wrapped up in one grand formation. Smacks of "fire sale" to me.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Looking at the GW home page it shows the phrase "Save Cadia from annihilation" - I still have hope that Cadia will survive, sorely tested but unbroken.

Rumors I saw show Cadia is outright destroyed, not merely lost.

Apparently, Crawl thinks he can activate the pylons and close the Eye. Turns out he can't.

[Ulfast]

For me it´s fine if Cadia falls as I want the story of 40k to progress. And I think cadians always knew that one day there homeworld will fall but that doesn´t meen Cadians as a people will fall or give up. I just hope GW give us AM players a bone or something so we not only lose but gain at leasts something back too.

[Captain Tezdal]

Even if Cadia fell there will still be tons of Cadian regiments out there scattered across the galaxy, plus who knows how many worlds settled by Cadian vets that emulate their honeworld one would expect.

[Hfran Morkai]

Remember Cadia is not just a world, it's a way of life.

[Indefragable]

I don't mind Cadia falling in order to "progress the setting." That has needed to happen for a long time, so I applaud the efforts. What peeves me is the fact that (so far) the great battle of our time focuses on everyone but the Cadians themselves....on their homeworld....which happens to be the second-most fortified world in the Imperium after Terra itself. And there's all this info from GW about "What is Cadia?" "Notes about Cadia," blah blah blah.....but nothing for the Cadians themselves. It's no surprise that there is a thread in another part of these forums called "Are Astra Militarum relegated to NPC status in 40k." 

 

"Remember the Alamo!" has way less significance when the story focuses on what everyone but the troops manning the Alamo's walls themselves. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

I'm actually a bit disappointed. I quite liked the idea that the Imperium would lose the war in the stars, but not on Cadia itself per se. While Abaddon's fleet sweeps Battlefleet Cadia aside and sends it fleeing before him, giving him access to the wider Imperium, Cadia is besieged and unable to mount a proper effort to stall the advance.

 

Those that want to, then attack Cadia, as a last bitter act of kicking them while their down. Under their void shields, garrisoned in their Kasrs, the Cadians hold out as the hordes of Chaos assail their home. They dig in Stalingrad-style, fighting to the bitter end in Kasr after Kasr, holding out for an awful long time, giving hope that they might one day be relieved, (the higher-ups hide the knowledge that Battlefleet Cadia is either in ruins or fleeing, in order to save morale.)

 

Instead we got something a bit different. Was hoping for Kasrkin and grizzled veteran Cadians for the new release. :/

[Inso]

It'll be like Return of the Jedi... Chaos infiltrators will get down to the surface and blow up the field generators... then the massed armies of Chaos sit back while the planet is virus bombed from orbit

And if you think I am being a bit negative... I'm a Squat army builder... Anihilation is part of the backstory :D

[Brother Captain Ed]

This is one of those head-scratchers about the 40k-verse that never made sense to me.  Why is space-based firepower so incredibly destructive, but ground-to-space defensive weaponry is basically non-existent?

 

I mean, yeah, ok, I get that this is a setting where the existence of fantastic ranged weaponry capable of slagging entire continents doesn’t remove “I want to hit them with my magic-science sword” as a valid school of martial thought.  Ok.  But, even with the certainty that military tactics and doctrine play second fiddle to The Rule of Cool here, it still doesn’t make sense.  A planet is capable of constructing power sources, cogitator banks, and simply utilizing square footage in a way that dwarfs the capability of a starship…even the titanic ones of the Imperial Navy.

 

Fortress worlds like Cadia should be capable of at least delaying space-based weapons platforms from annihilating the world and moving on.  As it stands, Abaddon should have simply drawn the battlefleet out of orbit and then warped in a single ship with a cyclonic torpedo salvo half a dozen crusades ago.

 

Did I miss something, somewhere?

[VulkansDynasty]

I always liked to think of it like this:

 

Abbadon has something to prove. If you read in the new Traitor Legions book, he literally had to scrape and scrabble his forces: quote from the book: "Abbdon and his warriors fought hard to rebuild their pride and reputation, battling in the most dangerous conflicts they could find. At first, Abaddon won the grudging respect of the surviving Traitor Legions, but as his deed grew bolder and mightier, respect turned into support."

 

Now, all he got was their support, not their unwaivering loyalty. And to keep that support and respect he has to prove his prowess as the "New Warmaster". This leads to repeated acts of glory, culminating in his black crusades. While the fluff never really touched on it, I imagine his reputation with some legions was tarnished a bit when the 13th failed. Now he's gotta go back in and prove he can do what he tried to do the first time. That's why he doesn't just bomb it. Not a tactically sound strategy, but we also don't have the WHOLE story on Cadia. What if there's a reason they need to have boots on the ground? What if one or more of the Chaos Gods demanded he do it this way? What if there's an artifact he needs, or the pylons themselves are the key to him being able to bring his entire force to bear and if he wipes out the planet he hurts himself as much as the Imperials? We don't know, only GW may know.

 

Now as to why the planets don't have massed anti-space batteries. Maybe they do, but in true WH40K style they've forgotten how to upkeep them, we all know that Imperial technology is far too religiously handled than would make sense, even for the Space Marines who are supposed to know better.  Defense Lasers exist (though they all come from the dark age of technology, so we assume can't be replaced), but outside of the 13th black crusade (Look up Duty's Fist) all their references I could find are from Battlefleet Gothic, which seems to be a bit of dying lore as of right now. So maybe the Imperium's planet based defenses are for all intents and purposes locked behind a veil of superstition and lost knowledge. Cadia never replacing it's lost weapons after the last crusade (...stupid Khârn and Greater Daemons who wrecked them).

 

Overall, a perfect answer, but then again we wouldn't have anything more than "meet me on this deserted planet so we can duel" Or "Oh man, they blew up every planet, lets just fight on ships, or in space, we are Space Marines! There's a codex entry somewhere on how to fight in zero gravity"

[Indefragable]

Regarding anti-ship weaponry on planets, and so on...

 

I feel it's glossed over for the sake of getting to the boots on the ground stuff. Kind of like how running a sports team involves contract negotiations, injury reports, player rotations, farming people from minor leagues, etc...but really the only part people care about is the actual on-the-field game. Not the greatest analogy but I think you see my point. The story always picks up when the invaders first forces hit the ground.

 

Besides, naval stuff is probably deliberately glossed over so that they caned-sell the same exact material in a Battlfleet Gothic re-released

[Marshal Rohr]

This is one of those head-scratchers about the 40k-verse that never made sense to me. Why is space-based firepower so incredibly destructive, but ground-to-space defensive weaponry is basically non-existent?

 

I mean, yeah, ok, I get that this is a setting where the existence of fantastic ranged weaponry capable of slagging entire continents doesn’t remove “I want to hit them with my magic-science sword” as a valid school of martial thought. Ok. But, even with the certainty that military tactics and doctrine play second fiddle to The Rule of Cool here, it still doesn’t make sense. A planet is capable of constructing power sources, cogitator banks, and simply utilizing square footage in a way that dwarfs the capability of a starship…even the titanic ones of the Imperial Navy.

 

Fortress worlds like Cadia should be capable of at least delaying space-based weapons platforms from annihilating the world and moving on. As it stands, Abaddon should have simply drawn the battlefleet out of orbit and then warped in a single ship with a cyclonic torpedo salvo half a dozen crusades ago.

 

Did I miss something, somewhere?

I think it's just a plot required inconsistency. I can't remember where I read it, but I HAVE read it before. Ground based missile systems and lasers are actually more powerful than their ship based equivalents because they are able to generate more energy with ground based reactors than space based. In the lore I read one of the main reasons armies need either drop pods to deploy or landing zones thousands of miles away from the enemy cities is because of those missiles and lasers. You can see a few of them in the art here and there, they are huge cylinders with the massive lasers on top. It might've been Vraks. The Siege Army had to land so far away because the Citadel was covered in ship killing lasers. IIRC, Cities of Death and later Badab 2 also mentioned strike forces having to destroy the reactors for the laser silos before the full Loyalist army and Legions of Heresticus stormtroopers could land.

 

Edit: Also, the void shields protecting cities and such are so powerful they are impervious to orbital bombardment. I.E. Horus's fortress on Isstvan V

[Indefragable]

It would be great to have a narrative that covered exactly what would actually happen when side A invaded side B in 40k. 

 

Such as...

Hidden Content

1. Recon forces infiltrate out asteroid belt to disable early warning sensors

2. Defenders notice this and send x ships to the belt in anticipation of enemy fleet approach

3. ....Attackers knew this would be the reaction and so it was a faint to draw the defending ships from orbit..

4. ....because they STILL have the orbital defense platforms to bash through in order to launch a lightning assault on the planet......

5.  .....so that they can take out the Anti-orbital missile silos and jigawatt laser batteries...

6. ....so that the attacking fleet is clear to move in and capture some more of the orbital defense stations in order to turn those defences around on the world's fleet returning at breakneck speed from the feint in the asteroid belt. Even if the fleets were evenly matched, the defenders have the advantage of terrestrial defenses that tip things in their favor. So the attacker's only hope is to create a multi-zone "beachhead" on one side of the planet and catch their breath.

 

Because that's Phase 1

 

Phase 2:

 

Actually taking the planet

 

 

Something like that would be really cool....show the progressions and steps necessary to actually take a semi-defended world. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

This is one of those head-scratchers about the 40k-verse that never made sense to me. Why is space-based firepower so incredibly destructive, but ground-to-space defensive weaponry is basically non-existent?

 

I mean, yeah, ok, I get that this is a setting where the existence of fantastic ranged weaponry capable of slagging entire continents doesn’t remove “I want to hit them with my magic-science sword” as a valid school of martial thought. Ok. But, even with the certainty that military tactics and doctrine play second fiddle to The Rule of Cool here, it still doesn’t make sense. A planet is capable of constructing power sources, cogitator banks, and simply utilizing square footage in a way that dwarfs the capability of a starship…even the titanic ones of the Imperial Navy.

 

Fortress worlds like Cadia should be capable of at least delaying space-based weapons platforms from annihilating the world and moving on. As it stands, Abaddon should have simply drawn the battlefleet out of orbit and then warped in a single ship with a cyclonic torpedo salvo half a dozen crusades ago.

 

Did I miss something, somewhere?

I think it's just a plot required inconsistency. I can't remember where I read it, but I HAVE read it before. Ground based missile systems and lasers are actually more powerful than their ship based equivalents because they are able to generate more energy with ground based reactors than space based. In the lore I read one of the main reasons armies need either drop pods to deploy or landing zones thousands of miles away from the enemy cities is because of those missiles and lasers. You can see a few of them in the art here and there, they are huge cylinders with the massive lasers on top. It might've been Vraks. The Siege Army had to land so far away because the Citadel was covered in ship killing lasers. IIRC, Cities of Death and later Badab 2 also mentioned strike forces having to destroy the reactors for the laser silos before the full Loyalist army and Legions of Heresticus stormtroopers could land.

 

Edit: Also, the void shields protecting cities and such are so powerful they are impervious to orbital bombardment. I.E. Horus's fortress on Isstvan V

 

I think you're probably right about plot requirement.  The more advanced and lethal warfare becomes, the less narrative it is.  Most modern warfare is actually quite boring.

 

As for pods and such, yes, you are correct, but that is really ground-to-air capability, not ground-to-space.  Very rarely is the battle barge endangered by surface weaponry, even if the pods, Thunderhawks, assorted landing craft, etc. are.  

 

And, yes, of course you are right about Vraks.  But they were also attempting to take the planet.  Not merely hit it from space.  I don't recall reading in IA, or anywhere else, that the fleet was hindered by ground weaponry.  Usually the "problem" with Exterminatus is having to deliver the device by hand because of plot reasons.

 

Anyway, it's not a big deal.  Just strange to me that void combat is almost always ship-to-ship or ship-to-station.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm probably misremembering what I did read, it's been a while. Maybe it's just certain things like Chapter monasteries or big enough Hive Cities.

[Indefragable]

Morbid discussion time. Ye of weak knees or sensibilities carry on. 

 

Exterminatus, unless its the virus bombs on Isstvaan or something, is never actually described in great detail. We don't have a manual on how it's performed or anything. Not to be so glib about the annihilation of every living creature on a world, but it's always portrayed as being quick enough to fit into a 22min cartoon episode. Like there's an Exterminatus button and poof! It's done! 

 

I imagine it's a far more methodical and logistical operation, with the first concern being the number of ships with enough big guns available to actually glass part of a continent. Secondly would be all the secondary ships necessary to completely blockade and seal the airspace to prevent escape from the surface. 3rd would be a coordinated, methodical sweeping of the planet from pole to pole or such grid-by-grid type destruction. I imagine even with a sizeable fleet it takes months ("hey Admiral, you missed a spot!") 

 

I would bring up real world points of reference for comparison of timetables, but that soils the mood and is not a pleasant topic at all. So maybe, for a fantasy setting that's supposed to be enjoyable to explore, the cartoonish big red button is best.