Scribe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Because its in you as a man, to fight back, to spit at the darkness, and to hold to your own ideals. The entire things relies on ignoring metaphysics of the universe. If you live in 40k, you are adding strength to the Dark Gods. If you have a family in 40k, the moment your children are born, they are doomed to be tortured in the eternity by the neverborn. Every effort you put towards saving the Imperium of Mankind dooms more and more people to eternal damnation, because there is no alternative to eternal damnation in this universe. This though..man that was beautiful. EDIT: Rohr ninja'd me, but thats the point of resistance right there. To not be a pathetic quitter, and to go down swinging. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The struggle is Boromir's death. Chaos is the Uruk-Hai. The chieftain (Abaddon) is killing him. But Boromir is still swinging his sword. Every time he kills an Uruk, that's an imperial battle group breaking a chaos invasion. Every time he's hit with an arrow the size of a branch, that's Abaddon achieving a victory. You know his wounds will kill him, but he's kicking ass anyway. There are two types of people: the kind that watch that scene and cry because the good guy died and the bad guy won, and the people who cry because Boromir died a good death and there is honor in that. 40k is best viewed the second way. A good death is a victory all it's own. Then answer me this: Would you think the same if the book ended with Sauron winning and every protagonist being dead, their souls tortured? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Just a reminder that the topic is about the Emperor being a jerk, not B&C members... Please respect other opinions, and avoid the pitfalls of Internet discourse. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Back to the topic...I respectfully disagree with DukeLeto69's concept. I do agree with the idea that the Emperor uses his not-quite-omniscience to steer Humanity. I also agree with the idea that the Emperor has to *nudge* things to get to the destination he's hoping for. That having been said, I think the idea that the Emperor somehow desired the Horus Heresy or the Imperium as it stands ignores a theme that is both very key to the setting but is nonetheless not mentioned enough in the fiction:The Emperor's central mission was to shepherd Humanity through its evolution into becoming a psychic species. Navigators, Warp-capable ships, Geller fields, etc., were all just necessary evils - means to an end, if you will, which was to secure the unification of the species. The whole point of the Webway, as stated in Master of Mankind, was to remove any dependence Humanity had on the Warp, and thus any exposure to the Ruinous Powers, until the species was capable of defending itself from the hellish reality that defined the universe. To put it in perspective, Master reveals that what is done as a matter of daily course - feeding a thousand psykers to the all-but-dead Emperor - was considered a worst-case scenario measure that was only put in place at the very darkest hour of the War in the Webway, when the Emperor absolutely had to enter the battle and save the day. I just don't see a scenario wherein the Emperor worked toward a dystopia that literally relies on the sacrifice of the creatures he sought to protect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The whole point of the Webway, as stated in Master of Mankind, was to remove any dependence Humanity had on the Warp, and thus any exposure to the Ruinous Powers, until the species was capable of defending itself from the hellish reality that defined the universe. I still have no idea how that one was supposed to work, frankly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The whole point of the Webway, as stated in Master of Mankind, was to remove any dependence Humanity had on the Warp, and thus any exposure to the Ruinous Powers, until the species was capable of defending itself from the hellish reality that defined the universe. I still have no idea how that one was supposed to work, frankly. It prevented people from having to travel through it. Since all communication and travel was warp based, we were dependent on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Its a wider topic though that I dont think we have an answer for. Lets say they make it so no psyker is needed (including Astropath's and Navigators) Ok, so we still have rampant mutation leading to psyker births. Speculation: Galactic peace is ours, humanity lives without the warp via Web Way navigation and runners doing he communication (I guess?) and under that umbrella of peace...the Emperor institutes a practice like the Black Ships, and genetic modification to soul bind psykers in the womb to Himself? Humanity ascends as a Psyker race like the Eldar, but safe and bound to the Emperor? Totally making that up, but thats how I could picture it. A galactic genetics program with the Emperor at the top, binding humanity to him...sure? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Okay gang, the polite nudge was ignored, so let me be crystal clear: If so much as a mouse fart off topic or less than polite post occurs here I'm locking the topic and the poster(s) will receive further discipline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Its a wider topic though that I dont think we have an answer for. Lets say they make it so no psyker is needed (including Astropath's and Navigators) Ok, so we still have rampant mutation leading to psyker births. Speculation: Galactic peace is ours, humanity lives without the warp via Web Way navigation and runners doing he communication (I guess?) and under that umbrella of peace...the Emperor institutes a practice like the Black Ships, and genetic modification to soul bind psykers in the womb to Himself? Humanity ascends as a Psyker race like the Eldar, but safe and bound to the Emperor? Totally making that up, but thats how I could picture it. A galactic genetics program with the Emperor at the top, binding humanity to him...sure? Being soul bound does not prevent you from being corrupted, as far as I know. Nor does it help against predations of Daemons. Nor are psykers necessary for cults to form, as far as I am aware. It is part of the reason the entire webway project falls flat to me. So we won't have to use warp for communication and transportation and... what? I don't see how solves the problem, considering how impossible to get rid off Chaos influence is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 "Soul-Binding is necessary to gird the psyker's soul against the predations of the Warp and provide the discipline required to use their powers effectively without endangering others." I dont have a book in front of me, but the various wiki's seem to be in agreement with the concept that the Soul Binding offers protection for the psyker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 "Soul-Binding is necessary to gird the psyker's soul against the predations of the Warp and provide the discipline required to use their powers effectively without endangering others." I dont have a book in front of me, but the various wiki's seem to be in agreement with the concept that the Soul Binding offers protection for the psyker. It offers protection, not certainty. The psyker might still succumb to voices or perils. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Without the webway, the following is the case: "Psykers are the links that hold Mankind together--psychic communication is the only means the Imperium has to communicate over the vast distances of space. Without psykers, the Imperium of man would fall apart... however, every psykers is also a grave danger to those around them. Each psyker is a gateway through which the daemons of the warp may enter the material world and bring destruction to Mankind." -Only War, page 222. So with the webway complete, the Emperor could cleanse all psykers until humanity was ready for them. It would allow them to eliminate a huge threat (and all fluff talks about how big a threat is, and it's almost always described as a constant battle to keep chaos at bay), while he prepares the Imperium and Humanity for the next step. We never see the next step because he never finishes the first one. So every time they send a message there is a chance of disaster. Every power used, every transition into the warp, every message made attracts daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 There is that more grim alternative to my other post. Psykers, are mutations. If you literally control the Galaxy, have the ability to travel instantaneously, you have the means to obliterate the 'psyker genes' and REALLY lock out the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Skitarii codex has a blurb about the Omnicopeia that has the STCs necessary to control psychic birth rates and reignite the evolution of humanity into a psychic race for what it's worth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The struggle is Boromir's death. Chaos is the Uruk-Hai. The chieftain (Abaddon) is killing him. But Boromir is still swinging his sword. Every time he kills an Uruk, that's an imperial battle group breaking a chaos invasion. Every time he's hit with an arrow the size of a branch, that's Abaddon achieving a victory. You know his wounds will kill him, but he's kicking ass anyway. There are two types of people: the kind that watch that scene and cry because the good guy died and the bad guy won, and the people who cry because Boromir died a good death and there is honor in that. 40k is best viewed the second way. A good death is a victory all it's own. Then answer me this: Would you think the same if the book ended with Sauron winning and every protagonist being dead, their souls tortured? even though the good guys win, there's still a decline. the elves sail away and the great kingdoms recede, humankind's lifespans reduce and magic leaves middle earth. the decline of the imperium is far more dramatic (which 40k is generally compared to LotR) but humanity will continue to exist, their empire just won't be top dog anymore. i think a direct comparison between the two is probably a mistake though, 40k defines itself as distinct and different to the majority of other settings that follow the traditional heroic tropes. all empires end. 10, 000 years is a great innings for such a stale culture by any standard. you're putting forward an extremely literal interpretation of events and themes. chaos doesn't need to work exactly like entropy to be an effective metaphor for it. just as the portrait of dorian gray doesn't need to function exactly like the id to be analogous. there needs to be room for creative license and...well, art. what you're asking for is a dulling of art and for entropy to only be portrayed as...entropy. fun. as for the big e's plan and jerk factor; laurie g posted an interesting interpretation of the his plan on TFE boards. i won't quote it here (already got my slap on the wrist once before), but scroll down a little on this page: http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1979&st=75 he discusses the possibility of the emperor engineering the horus heresy and it spiraling out of control thanks to another primarch. the whole thread is full of stuff that will be of interest to peeps on this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Lets say they make it so no psyker is needed (including Astropath's and Navigators) That's the thing, Scribe. The implication (EDIT) doesn't seem to be that Humanity won't need psykers; it's that the species will eventually become psychic as a whole, and that the Webway would minimize its exposure to the Ruinous Powers during this process. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Lets say they make it so no psyker is needed (including Astropath's and Navigators)That's the thing, Scribe. The implication seems to be that Humanity won't need psykers; it's that the species will eventually become psychic as a whole, and that the Webway would minimize its exposure to the Ruinous Powers during this process. Yeah I'm certainly not tied to anything regarding 'the after' it's not defined how it would go since the E got sidetracked with near-death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Scribe, my apologies! I meant to say the implication wasn't that Humanity wouldn't need psykers. I edited my original post. Agh! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Great discsussion although my head is spinning a bit trying to reconcile all the points being made :-) Purely on the topic of "Chaos ultimately wins" well I do not see how that is incompatible with my original (admittedly personal view) speculation on the motivation of the Emperor. If you separate out the idea of Chaos Gods = Bad and God Emperor = Good and focus on simply having a pantheon of Gods that each reflect and are empowered (even brought into existence) by an aspect of sentient being behaviour and emotions, then the Emperor becoming one of the pantheon is no different and he is in fact, arguably another of the (chaos) Gods. If so then what is "chaos" actually winning? The ultimate aim of "chaos" (or the Pantheon) cannot be the utter destruction and extinction of humanity because that would also result in their own destruction as there would be nobody empowering them. The "game" must surely be one of who has the upper hand and biggest power through control of the resource that empowers them - so control of the human race not extinction of the human race! The "game" is who of the Gods is the biggest cheese at the expense of the others at any moment. Also... There is the concept of "counter daemons", that is the concept of "good" daemons. In most real world religions there are the agents of God(s). The bad ones are daemons, the good ones are angels. They are two sides to the same coin. The (chaos) Gods each have greater and lesser daemons that are ostensibly allied with them (thematically if not in an army based sense). It is not a stretch to see that the Emperor was creating his own counter daemons or good daemons or "angels" through the Primarchs and the Astartes (the former being Arch Angels the latter being Angels). They are not human. They cannot breed or reproduce. They are transhuman but bear some resemblance to humans. Like Angels. So I posit that the Emperor could see the future, needed to become a God, needed some of his Angels to turn against him to enable this. It doesn't answer the question about Him losing some/all of his Arch Angels, except that if they could in fact still be operating besides the Emperor in the Warp. Corax vanished. Russ vanished. Khan vanished. The Lion and Gullieman are in stasis. What if all of them have been actually battling in the psychic realm next the the Emperor all along? Just a thought :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Emperor's metaphor about travelling across the sea in Master of Mankind is important. Even if he did foresee X eventuality, that does not mean that Y occurring as X unfolded was foreseen. Even if he did foresee the possibility of Y occurring, he may have had to take that risk as part of an attempt to prevent Z from coming to pass. The Emperor may have planned for Horus to rebel, or he may have predicted that a Primarch might rebel and, considering the possibilities, concluded that promoting Horus to Warmaster as and when he did was the safest choice. Maybe he expected a slightly higher chance that another Primarch might have been the one to rebel, and believed that promoting Horus as Warmaster might push that Primarch into rebellion out of jealousy and resentment - even though he also predicted doing so would increase the chances of Horus being the one to rebel himself, feeling abandoned after so much time in what seemed like the Emperor's closest confidences. That goes for everything. Did he want Lorgar to promote a belief in his divinity? Maybe - but that doesn't mean he wanted Lorgar to be so slow and relatively ineffective in the Great Crusade. Perhaps he expected the chastisement at Monarchia to cure one but not the other, at least on the balance of probabilities. If nothing else, I think part of the problem with whatever plan the Emperor had has to be that he simply didn't expect other human beings, Astartes or otherwise, to have such an influence on the decisions of the Primarchs. I've noticed before how powerful personalities in the Legions are sometimes as important as their Primarchs, if not more so, when it comes to the big moments in the history of 40K. It's Typhon who maroons Terminus Est deliberately in order to infest it with Nurgle's daemons. It's Kor Phaeron and Erebus who talk Lorgar into pursuing the truth of the Covenant to the Eye of Terror. And so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster The Lobster Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Lots of Y,x and even Z´s in this thread. I think the nature of foreseeing is explained in all its beauty and hardships in MoM. In short, you don´t know if a road is dangerous until you start to walk down it. And regarding the promotion of Horus as warmaster, Basically everyone in the series has as one point or another said that its impossible to hate Horus. Which should imply the reputation he had. Which probably affected the Emperor when he had to decide on the future on the crusade.. If nothing else, I think part of the problem with whatever plan the Emperor had has to be that he simply didn't expect other human beings, Astartes or otherwise, to have such an influence on the decisions of the Primarchs. I've noticed before how powerful personalities in the Legions are sometimes as important as their Primarchs, if not more so, when it comes to the big moments in the history of 40K. It's Typhon who maroons Terminus Est deliberately in order to infest it with Nurgle's daemons. It's Kor Phaeron and Erebus who talk Lorgar into pursuing the truth of the Covenant to the Eye of Terror. And so on. I do think a lot of people forget about the mystic and the legend of a first captain or similar position. A Primarch is forged by the Emperor´s own hands, and their legend is assured since birth. But an Astartes who have earned the respect of tens of thousands of his peers and his father, is a legend in his own rights, and who´s voice in the legion rivals his father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Skitarii codex has a blurb about the Omnicopeia that has the STCs necessary to control psychic birth rates and reignite the evolution of humanity into a psychic race for what it's worth. It's a shame the all knowing Emperor didn't use this to complete His "Great Plans for Humanity". Such a jerk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4614966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixOfOne Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The Skitarii codex has a blurb about the Omnicopeia that has the STCs necessary to control psychic birth rates and reignite the evolution of humanity into a psychic race for what it's worth. It's a shame the all knowing Emperor didn't use this to complete His "Great Plans for Humanity". Such a jerk. That may have been his long-term plan. But there's no point controlling psychic birth rates until the webway project is completed as up until that point humanity is still dependent on the warp for travel and communication. The Great Crusade also wasn't finished so being able to travel is a larger priority. You can't skip straight to step 2 without doing step 1 otherwise the whole thing isn't going to work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4615079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 So you're saying He's a good project manager? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4615174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 So you're saying He's a good project manager? Yeah, until his employees unionized. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/2/#findComment-4615182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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