The Emperor being a jerk and that final Emp v Horus showdown

[Arkangilos]

Using psychic powers doesn't mean you make a deal with the gods... the warp (which is what the powers come from) is NOT the gods.

[HeritorA]

Using psychic powers doesn't mean you make a deal with the gods... the warp (which is what the powers come from) is NOT the gods.

It's not the point - Emperor wasn't been able to create Primarchs without Warp and it's influence (knowledge/chaos whatever). Magnus was created as a psychically gifted one to take the Emperor on the Throne, while Emperor will fulfill humanity dream. And finish/disect warp from humanity once and for all. 

 

As for the Warp - the 4 become Gods in everything. Lorgar saw this. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Using psychic powers doesn't mean you make a deal with the gods... the warp (which is what the powers come from) is NOT the gods.

It's not the point - Emperor wasn't been able to create Primarchs without Warp and it's influence (knowledge/chaos whatever). Magnus was created as a psychically gifted one to take the Emperor on the Throne, while Emperor will fulfill humanity dream. And finish/disect warp from humanity once and for all. 

 

As for the Warp - the 4 become Gods in everything. Lorgar saw this. 

 

 

 

Is Lorgar really a reliable source though? 

[HeritorA]

 

 

Using psychic powers doesn't mean you make a deal with the gods... the warp (which is what the powers come from) is NOT the gods.

It's not the point - Emperor wasn't been able to create Primarchs without Warp and it's influence (knowledge/chaos whatever). Magnus was created as a psychically gifted one to take the Emperor on the Throne, while Emperor will fulfill humanity dream. And finish/disect warp from humanity once and for all. 

 

As for the Warp - the 4 become Gods in everything. Lorgar saw this. 

 

 

 

Is Lorgar really a reliable source though? 

 

From the point of view of first HH stories and from the point of A D-B he is. From our point of view 43 books in - hes opinion differs and 'under question'.

In general - as someone said warp entities lie. But here we have a point - where they do not need to lie

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Where has A D-B said Lorgar is a reliable narrator?

 

Because I trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities. They lie and twist truths as easily as we breath

[HeritorA]

Where has A D-B said Lorgar is a reliable narrator?

 

Because I trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities. They lie and twist truths as easily as we breath

Did they lie to Horus telling him he will get Godlike powers at Moloch? Did they lie that if Lorgar and Horus loose - humanity will die a slow death of stagnation? Did they lied telling Argel Tal - he will under in the shadow of Imperial Eagle? etc.

Yes - they lie, and they do that a lot. Actually as a lot of human beings. That absolutely does not mean that 'you can trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities'

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Where has A D-B said Lorgar is a reliable narrator?

 

Because I trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities. They lie and twist truths as easily as we breath

Did they lie to Horus telling him he will get Godlike powers at Moloch? Did they lie that if Lorgar and Horus loose - humanity will die a slow death of stagnation? Did they lied telling Argel Tal - he will under in the shadow of Imperial Eagle? etc.

Yes - they lie, and they do that a lot. Actually as a lot of human beings. That absolutely does not mean that 'you can trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities'

Do you have a quote from A D-B stating Lorgar was a reliable narrator?

[randian]

 

Where has A D-B said Lorgar is a reliable narrator?

 

Because I trust absolutely nothing from any of the Warp based entities. They lie and twist truths as easily as we breath

Did they lie to Horus telling him he will get Godlike powers at Moloch? Did they lie that if Lorgar and Horus loose - humanity will die a slow death of stagnation? Did they lied telling Argel Tal - he will under in the shadow of Imperial Eagle? etc.

The lie they told Horus (or perhaps the lie he told himself) was that he took that power with no strings attached. They lie they told Lorgar was "we want symbiosis", when in fact they want ownership.

[Arkangilos]

Not to mention those "truths" they told would have been lies had they not manipulated the situation.

 

It's like me being a reliable source of truth when I say, "Your friend will die in three days" and then hire a hit man to kill your friend in three days.

 

"SEE! I told you! Oooo I am so truthful and my prophecies come true!"

 

The truths the gods said would happen would not have been truths had they not directly "hired" the people to make them the truth.

 

They lied, pure and simple, and that's what made their prophecies come true.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'm still just waiting for a quote from A D-B stating that Lorgar is a reliable narrator.

[HeritorA]

I'm still just waiting for a quote from A D-B stating that Lorgar is a reliable narrator.

Somewhere in the years of his forums threads and blogspot mentions. I do not owe you anything - you can ask him, or check for yourself. 

To have a bet with you is a no win scenario - if I did spend :cussload of time to find it (and found it I would have) you would say it's still a lie from deranged minister of Chaos.

In case I did not spend a :cussload of time to find it, as I do now - you would say 'see amazing and always right Wolf Lord Kieran' was right again.

Why bother?

[Arkangilos]

 

 

I'm still just waiting for a quote from A D-B stating that Lorgar is a reliable narrator.

Somewhere in the years of his forums threads and blogspot mentions. I do not owe you anything - you can ask him, or check for yourself.

To have a bet with you is a no win scenario - if I did spend :cussload of time to find it (and found it I would have) you would say it's still a lie from deranged minister of Chaos.

In case I did not spend a :cussload of time to find it, as I do now - you would say 'see amazing and always right Wolf Lord Kieran' was right again.

Why bother?

It's more of that you made a claim without support.

[Roomsky]

In regards to OP, I think the X-men Apocalypse style final battle could work well. In fact, I think I'd like the narrative focus to be on the "mind-battle" because I don't think the physical confrontation could ever live up to what we've been hyping all these years. I think I'd prefer a confrontation in the warp because it gives more opportunity for each to talk about how betrayed they felt by the other, something that would come across as a bit anime-esque (in all the worst ways) in an actual punching match.

 

On a side note, is it still canon that the Chaos Gods would've been hideously damaged if they hadn't fled Horus in the end? I guess Molech brings that into question, but I still like to imagine they all had their arms so far up Horus' behind, using him as a daemonic sock-puppet, that if they hadn't fled in time they would all have been crippled, for a time at least.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

I'm still just waiting for a quote from A D-B stating that Lorgar is a reliable narrator.

Somewhere in the years of his forums threads and blogspot mentions. I do not owe you anything - you can ask him, or check for yourself.

To have a bet with you is a no win scenario - if I did spend :cussload of time to find it (and found it I would have) you would say it's still a lie from deranged minister of Chaos.

In case I did not spend a :cussload of time to find it, as I do now - you would say 'see amazing and always right Wolf Lord Kieran' was right again.

Why bother?

It's more of that you made a claim without support.

Pretty much.

If I make a claim here, there is a page number to back up the claim.

 

Especially something that would fundamentally rock the setting and how characters are perceived.

Because Lorgar's views, being the architect of Heresy, are pretty important.

 

For an example, if I said that Russ was the most loyal son, I would link in the FW banner that gives some basis to that statement (regardless of how crazy that position may be)

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/HH%20Vlka%20Fenryka/802EE712-5560-4354-B1C3-20FAFA7AF3CB_zpsxzwkai1w.jpg

 

 

I do apologize for asking you to actually back up such a claim HeritorA, and will remember for future occasions that you are unable to do so. I think that'll save the both of us time and keep things amicable here.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Also, if A D-B were to write that First Claw infiltrated the Aett, murdered Ragnar in his sleep and choked Bjorn's barey alive corpse to death before riding Grimnar's chariot to escape, I'd buy the crap outta that

 

Because A D-B is always respectful of the background, and loves the setting more than most of us do. He'd write the above so awesomely I'd love it.

 

Because I can enjoy a well done story, regardless of my in universe favorites

[HeritorA]

 

 

I'm still just waiting for a quote from A D-B stating that Lorgar is a reliable narrator.

Somewhere in the years of his forums threads and blogspot mentions. I do not owe you anything - you can ask him, or check for yourself.

To have a bet with you is a no win scenario - if I did spend :cussload of time to find it (and found it I would have) you would say it's still a lie from deranged minister of Chaos.

In case I did not spend a :cussload of time to find it, as I do now - you would say 'see amazing and always right Wolf Lord Kieran' was right again.

Why bother?

It's more of that you made a claim without support.

 

Claim? There is a big difference between point of view and claim.

 

In regards to OP, I think the X-men Apocalypse style final battle could work well. In fact, I think I'd like the narrative focus to be on the "mind-battle" because I don't think the physical confrontation could ever live up to what we've been hyping all these years. I think I'd prefer a confrontation in the warp because it gives more opportunity for each to talk about how betrayed they felt by the other, something that would come across as a bit anime-esque (in all the worst ways) in an actual punching match.

 

On a side note, is it still canon that the Chaos Gods would've been hideously damaged if they hadn't fled Horus in the end? I guess Molech brings that into question, but I still like to imagine they all had their arms so far up Horus' behind, using him as a daemonic sock-puppet, that if they hadn't fled in time they would all have been crippled, for a time at least.

Ok the point is - we know how it went (if we do mind an old lore). They gave him power - but at Terra after Emperor struck they removed their support from him for a moment. But Horus asked his father to kill him, cause the felt that support is coming back. In general he was a puppet, but Chaos 'gods, forces, powers' whatever you like to call them, did not left him voluntarily. So thay were honest supporting him and that's much more then a lot of promises made by the Emperor.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

you do want to show whos is the boss here - be a happy bunny. You are - being a moderati, friend of admin etc. etc. This makes you happy, then ok be happy. Your posturing for Russ after what Laurie said to you personally, that Forge World HH books and Primarch stuff written by a suspicious narrator - gives you a long deserved position of SW fan. Nothing wrong with that.

 

As for the claim, which it wasn't - specially for you I will check his afterwords and blogs for you and will give you a direct quote. Ty for your important time.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

HeritorA, it's almost mindboggling how wrong you are seeing this.

 

I am not in any way trying to establish who is the boss here. Because it sure isn't me. At best I'm a beat cop walking the same route every day. I have a boss, any of the Admins, who I whole heartedly recommend you start a conversation with if you feel I am targeting you here.

 

My asking you for a source to back up your claim is not to discredit what you said, but an attempt to build a new view into the Heresy. If there is an new direction, as BL is prone to do with new releases, I wanna know what they are to modify my viewpoint. Because I love this setting and the fictional characters who live in it, with the exception of the Alpha Legion.

 

About the FW books, that wasn't a big reveal from Laurie. It has been signed by an unknown person since the beginning. I just happen to enjoy the Black books more than the majority of the HH novels released up to this point.

 

I do repeat, if you or any other poster feel like anybody on this site is targeting them, report it. Everybody here has a boss.

[Arkangilos]

How is it not a claim?

 

You said that ADB said a certain thing and thought a certain way. That is *you* making a *claim* about *his* point of view. As in, you made a claim he said something.

 

Like, just because it's your point of view doesn't mean it isn't a claim.

[HeritorA]

How is it not a claim?

 

You said that ADB said a certain thing and thought a certain way. That is *you* making a *claim* about *his* point of view. As in, you made a claim he said something.

 

Like, just because it's your point of view doesn't mean it isn't a claim.

Ok from the point of trolling I see how it goes, but 'said that ADB said' - is 'claim' buried somewhere here?

Wolf Lord Kieran

Maybe I did misunderstood you, if that the case I'm sorry. Anyway people become to harsh to anything. It's like any small action or word now should be validated by the high beings.

Sign... Anyway as soon as I get to my bookshelf or A D-B blog without work restrictions, I will check his phrase about  Lorgar for you.

[Xisor]

 

 

How is it not a claim?

 

You said that ADB said a certain thing and thought a certain way. That is *you* making a *claim* about *his* point of view. As in, you made a claim he said something.

 

Like, just because it's your point of view doesn't mean it isn't a claim.

Ok from the point of trolling I see how it goes, but 'said that ADB said' - is 'claim' buried somewhere here

Yes. "Said that ADB said" could equivalently be "Claimed that ADB said". We've no idea if you're an Internet bot of your word or not. In that sense, anything we report that might or might not be true (as a lie, an omission, an error, a moment of forgetfulness, profound slyness, who knows...) is a claim.

 

"Now, did ADB really say that?" is effectively what WLK's trying to ascertain. It's quite distinct from "HA is a fiendish liar" (which might or might not be true, we've no way to know... but who has time to speculate? :p ), so hopefully don't allow enmity between the two of you let anyone jump to that conclusion.

 

I digress.

 

---

 

ADB can say what he wants, he's not the boss of me. Other authors will... course correct.

 

---

 

That said, it's long been explicitly noted in many sources within 40k that the most prolific and effective Chapter, far eclipsing anything even the Legions ever did, is the Storm Giants.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

How is it not a claim?

 

You said that ADB said a certain thing and thought a certain way. That is *you* making a *claim* about *his* point of view. As in, you made a claim he said something.

 

Like, just because it's your point of view doesn't mean it isn't a claim.

Ok from the point of trolling I see how it goes, but 'said that ADB said' - is 'claim' buried somewhere here? Wolf Lord Kieran

Maybe I did misunderstood you, if that the case I'm sorry. Anyway people become to harsh to anything. It's like any small action or word now should be validated by the high beings.

Sign... Anyway as soon as I get to my bookshelf or A D-B blog without work restrictions, I will check his phrase about Lorgar for you.

Maybe this will help, what does a "claim" mean to you? I take it you aren't a native English speaker?

This is the definition of claim.

"claim

klām/

verb

1.

state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

"he claimed that he came from a wealthy, educated family"

synonyms: assert, declare, profess, maintain, state, hold, affirm, avow; More

noun

1.

an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.

"he was dogged by the claim that he had CIA links"

synonyms: assertion, declaration, profession, affirmation"

 

---

 

So as you can see, you said something as if it were truth. That means you made a claim.

[Arkangilos]

Like if I said, "Sanguinius has wings." I am making a claim. I can either support it with evidence or choose not to. In this case we all hopefully know, so I'm not going to. But if I said, "Sanguinius had four eyes" I would be making a claim that not everyone would know, and so it would be nice if I provided evidence to prove I was telling the truth. Now, if my "source" was "Well, Dan Abnett said it" I would be making a claim that he said it, and I would need to provide proof that he said that.

 

Anytime you make an argument (or make a point, a statement, etc) you are making a claim.

[A D-B]

I, um, find it difficult to believe I said that. Context, I suspect, will be everything. Lorgar has rarely actually been a narration-view character, so I'm not sure on what terms I'd say he was reliable or unreliable.

 

I'm finding this reeeaaaally hard to follow, but it looks like there's a mix-up between "AD-B said Lorgar was right" and "AD-B said Lorgar is a reliable narrator". Is that what's happening? Yes, Lorgar was entirely right about some stuff. And entirely ignorant and wrong about other stuff. It's Warhammer 40,000. Everyone's a little bit right and a lot wrong. That's nothing new. That's the point of it.

[Mellow]

I guess that's the problem with saying an author stated something ... especially when the author in question is an active poster.

 

That said Heritor appears to have this unique ability to read a sentence and come to a completely different conclusion to most readers. So half the time people are either confused by what he's saying or wondering what he's talking about. Lol

[WarriorFish]

I think we need to get back on track now please. Thanks.