randian Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 One thing I hope is explained about the final showdown is why the Emperor put himself on the golden throne rather than reincarnate. He's supposedly a perpetual. Having your arm ripped off and guts ripped out is not a long-term problem (thought it is a lot of short-term suffering) for a perpetual. Why not ask to be beheaded ("don't worry I'll come back. really!")? Either something about how Horus attacked him removed his ability to reincarnate, and he knows it, or he doesn't know for certain he's a perpetual (though presumably he knows about them generally as he's met perpetuals before) since he's never been near death before and is afraid to risk it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 It could be that there is no time. If he died, he wouldn't instantly reincarnate, and it might not even be on Terra, but he was needed at Terra at that moment. Without him getting back on the throne, hell would have literally broken through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Also, do we KNOW he is perpetual, or is that something the other perpetuals (thanks a :cussing lot Abnett...one more thing I have to ignore) choose to think he is because he's been around a good while? I may need to take a break from the forums today, since the thread in News and Rumours got locked I cannot refute a number of incorrect statements and its tilted me pretty hard... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 That was the worse and most trajic thing I read in the Horus Heresy. When Horus was so willing to adapt and listen. When loken spoke with the guardian about how they were so willing to embrace one another. Then religious zealot mcnob head stole the anathema to break the trust. Sad thing is Horus felt that was his fault. I even feel sorry for lorgar. Abused by the very people he was created to lead and protect. All because of the human want for more power and greed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Also, do we KNOW he is perpetual, or is that something the other perpetuals (thanks a :cussing lot Abnett...one more thing I have to ignore) choose to think he is because he's been around a good while? Didn't think about that, but you're correct that's a third-hand characterization. It could be that there is no time. If he died, he wouldn't instantly reincarnate, and it might not even be on Terra, but he was needed at Terra at that moment. Without him getting back on the throne, hell would have literally broken through. Which would be a horribly perfect fate if you're the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 We don't know He's a perpetual. Oll Person refers to the Emperor as a "thing" so although He's perpetual in the sense of not aging He may or may not have the same abilities. Surely He can't have all the immortality, all the psychic power and all the answer. Maybe the catch is He doesn't have reincarnation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Also, do we KNOW he is perpetual, or is that something the other perpetuals (thanks a :cussing lot Abnett...one more thing I have to ignore) choose to think he is because he's been around a good while? Didn't think about that, but you're correct that's a third-hand characterization. It could be that there is no time. If he died, he wouldn't instantly reincarnate, and it might not even be on Terra, but he was needed at Terra at that moment. Without him getting back on the throne, hell would have literally broken through. Which would be a horribly perfect fate if you're the Chaos Gods. in addition, even if he is a perpetual, it seems that the function of their resurrection/immortality isn't consistent across the board or maybe the emperor wanted to resurrect but he wasn't able to consciously object to being strapped into the throne, which then stopped his process Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Some resurrect straight away. Others need to be reborn. I think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 The ability to resurect might be removed, it has been done for Grammaticus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I think even bl are struggling with the context of the latest story development. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4616692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 The ability to resurect might be removed, it has been done for Grammaticus. Pretty sure it was shown in one HH novel where a male or female perpetual was helping someone on board a ship. Damon I think it was. He kept getting killed whilst saving someone but kept coming back looking different each time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4617103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 We don't know He's a perpetual. Oll Person refers to the Emperor as a "thing" so although He's perpetual in the sense of not aging He may or may not have the same abilities. Surely He can't have all the immortality, all the psychic power and all the answer. Maybe the catch is He doesn't have reincarnation. John Grammaticus talk about Emperor as being the most powerful Perpetual in the Universe. The ability to resurect might be removed, it has been done for Grammaticus. But it was in extreme conditions - he actually gave his immortality to Vulkan. I think even bl are struggling with the context of the latest story development. They already struggling. I think the first point was Outcast dead where their narrative start struggling with the Emperor persona. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4617390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 We don't know He's a perpetual. Oll Person refers to the Emperor as a "thing" so although He's perpetual in the sense of not aging He may or may not have the same abilities. Surely He can't have all the immortality, all the psychic power and all the answer. Maybe the catch is He doesn't have reincarnation. John Grammaticus talk about Emperor as being the most powerful Perpetual in the Universe. The ability to resurect might be removed, it has been done for Grammaticus. But it was in extreme conditions - he actually gave his immortality to Vulkan. I think even bl are struggling with the context of the latest story development. They already struggling. I think the first point was Outcast dead where their narrative start struggling with the Emperor persona. Did he? I thought he just allowed him to be resurected. Has it been revealed that Vulkan is perpetual again? And mind, fighting Chaos-boosted Horus seems to qualify as extreme conditions. And I actually think the depiction of the Emperor in the Outcast Dead was pretty good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Well yeah ... Vulkan came back to life so he must be perpetual again. Lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 There's never been any great reason to think that reincarnation would work in a logical, chronological order. I die, but reincarnate as a baby? How and when do I get my old memories and personality? Day 1? Conception? Let's say it's 'seamless' in terms of consciousness - is there a gap of time? Eg one moment I'm being killed in 998M29, next moment I'm a child of 7 in 005M30? 998M29? When? Is there rhyme or reason? Why not 110M26, but half a galaxy away on a world no-one will ever know of? To put it mildly, the Perpetuals seem no more 'consistent' than psykers. Casting them all as 'one group' is perhaps wholly getting it wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 In old Lore The Emperor gradually remembered His past lives. He wasn't born with their knowledge/experiences from day one. Or even if He was it took a while for His brain to open up and remember. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 In old Lore The Emperor gradually remembered His past lives. He wasn't born with their knowledge/experiences from day one. Or even if He was it took a while for His brain to open up and remember. What old lore is that? The lore I recall wasn't that of 'past lives', but of the New Man awakening with the memory of all those Shamans who had sacrificed themselves to lead into His creation. It's not exactly the same thing. --- I do love how very Thorian this has gotten. :) =][= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Well yeah ... Vulkan came back to life so he must be perpetual again. Lol ... Not really? People have came back to life in 40k without becoming perpetuals before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4619915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Have they? Have you got any examples as I would be interested to read about them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4620225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Have they? Have you got any examples as I would be interested to read about them. Kharne, supposedly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4620232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfburk Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 traitors dont count on that one. Lucius has come back too but he isnt a perpetual. Thats just the chaos gods doing weird :cuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4620315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Yeah! See. I'm right. Good point Wulfburk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4620622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 I like the "no time" theory. If he reincarnates Malcador probably dies before he comes back. The psychic wards on the webway disappear and the daemons invade Terra. The traitors haven't time to evacuate yet after Horus' death so they're still on the field. Even if it's only an hour or two for him to come back that could spell the end of Terra. Therefore the Emperor must sacrifice himself and stay on the golden throne. It's an appropriately horrible fate for this universe. Then there's the End Times stuff where his physical body finally dies. Even if he's a perpetual and reincarnates there's no Malcador to hold the line for him so the daemonic invasion begins as soon as he dies. Probably not instant doom for Terra but even with a reincarnated Emperor (whom the population might reject as an imposter) fighting it's a bad situation. I doubt he can take an entire army of greater daemons by himself. You could have a fight on your hands for years, and it would be a trigger for Abaddon to make a push for Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4620648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Until something further appears in the HH as of TMoM I'm of the opinion that the webway has been shut and The Emperor is free to move around Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4621133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Until something further appears in the HH as of TMoM I'm of the opinion that the webway has been shut and The Emperor is free to move around ??? But the Emperor had to sit down on the throne to close it. Why would he be free to move again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/4/#findComment-4621142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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