Mellow Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 because the end of the story shows Him walking somewhere Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I was under the impression that was a vision, like what the Emperor had shown Ra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 What Marshal Loss said. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Yeah, the Emperor has shut the door, but on the other side, he is still holding back the hordes via mind powers. He's stuck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 It can't just be about daemons. As horrific as their onslaught from Magnus' Folly is shown to be, the Emperor must believe they can ultimately be driven back and contained enough for the damage to be repaired. Otherwise, what's the point of keeping the Ten Thousand and the Sisters of Silence within the Webway to die piecemeal? Nothing about the newest lore indicates that making new Custodians is either easy or quick (point of fact, it's not even clarified if anyone other than the Emperor possesses the knowledge to do so), which is only one reason as to why the war outside of the Imperial Dungeon still being waged, 10,000 years later, doesn't make sense. "I cannot leave the Golden Throne. Every route between the Imperial Dungeon and the Impossible City would shatter and flood with warp-born." This must be the key. Magnus damaged the Webway and provided a way for the Ruinous Powers to directly threaten the Imperial Dungeon, forcing the Emperor to take to the Golden Throne, which more or less crippled the Imperium. Had this not happened, I think it's far more difficult to see the Horus Heresy progressing much farther than the atrocities of Isstvan III. Two questions linger in my mind:1. Magnus appears genuinely contrite, to the point that he allows his adopted homeworld to be destroyed and his legion to be almost annihilated. I ponder why at that moment of understanding in the Imperial Dungeon the Emperor didn't convey to his son that it's pretty integral to the well-being of Humanity that he come atone by sitting on the Golden Throne. At the very least, I don't understand how it is not conveyed to Leman Russ that, whatever he, Horus, or anyone else thinks, nothing is more important to the Emperor that Magnus come back to Terra alive. 2. Unless knowledge of the fight in the Webway - or at least what its objective was - somehow perished between the events of Master of Mankind and the Emperor being mortally wounded, it feels odd that the Imperium of Man has done nothing to try to secure Magnus' Folly. It's clear no one considered the Emperor to be fully dead at any point. That the Imperial Dungeon hasn't exploded with daemons and that the Astronomican is still functioning are both facts that point to his continued life. Given this, I wonder why undoing the fifteenth son's damage didn't become the Holy Grail of the High Lords of Terra. At any rate, I can only begin to imagine the difficulty A D-B must have when trying to convey such concepts things through prose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Yes, I think the intent is in MoM that the Emperor is ACTUALLY holding back the Chaos Gods for a time, as the minor daemons get killed off. It was their Salvation, they needed to fight for it, but now, its lost to them. Only the Emperor has the power to take the fight INTO the webway, and win. Thats kind of what I got out of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I don't think the High Lords even know about the webway. Malcador was keeping it secret even from them, and once he's dead and the Emperor stops talking who's going to tell them? The Sisters know about it of course, but they're, you know, silent. That does beg the question of how you can keep an army a secret. It's not just the webway itself, but the movement of personnel and materiel to support the war in the webway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Yes, I think the intent is in MoM that the Emperor is ACTUALLY holding back the Chaos Gods for a time, as the minor daemons get killed off. It was their Salvation, they needed to fight for it, but now, its lost to them. Only the Emperor has the power to take the fight INTO the webway, and win. Thats kind of what I got out of it. Right, but if that's the case... then why even have the Ten Thousand and the Sisters of Silence in the Webway after Magnus' Folly to begin with? Hell, here's another question: the sacrifice of the thousand psykers gave leave to the Emperor to turn the tide, if only for a short time. We can certainly appreciate the monstrous moral implications of enslaving people on account of having a gift they never asked for and then kill them in excruciating fashion by using their souls as psychic batteries, but I honestly struggle to see why the agents of this Imperium would. I would have thought the Unspoken Sanction would have been carried out as soon after Magnus' Folly as humanly possible. Mind you, I don't want to come off as not liking Master of Mankind, or as if there's no good answer to these questions. I'm sure there are, and I'm sure I didn't help myself in understanding its nuances by tackling it a chapter at a time at the end of fairly exhausting days. I don't think the High Lords even know about the webway. Malcador was keeping it secret even from them, and once he's dead and the Emperor stops talking who's going to tell them? The Sisters know about it of course, but they're, you know, silent. That does beg the question of how you can keep an army a secret. It's not just the webway itself, but the movement of personnel and materiel to support the war in the webway. Actually, it was the Custodians who I had in mind as knowing. The Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes being a candidate for one of the remaining three seats in the Senatorum Imperialis, and obviously a person of great influence even when he's not included in that body, I would think that this knowledge would persist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 It's possible that the Emperor didn't want them to try and fight in the webway once he was gone, so either they have orders not to attempt it (and never talk about it), or he didn't tell anyone outside those that already knew. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Here's the things. Yes terra is the holy cradle of mankind. But if it's holding the emperor back that much maybe it's time to level earth and try and pick lock the Web way at another location. Terra may be gone but the emperor would be back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Here's the things. Yes terra is the holy cradle of mankind. But if it's holding the emperor back that much maybe it's time to level earth and try and pick lock the Web way at another location. Terra may be gone but the emperor would be back. One would assume the daemons are doing more than attacking Terra, they're going everywhere and attacking anything, rendering the entire webway useless. Commorragh should be under continuous daemonic attack like Terra is, for example. The webway's protection from the warp doesn't apply when the daemons are inside it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4621917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 It's possible that the Emperor didn't want them to try and fight in the webway once he was gone, so either they have orders not to attempt it (and never talk about it), or he didn't tell anyone outside those that already knew. You're probably right, man. I'm not left thinking how all this intersects (if it does at all) with the lore about the Terminus Decree, from the last Codex: Grey Knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I agree. Either they were ordered never to fight in the webway or they have no idea how to open it as they don't have the knowledge to work the machines that open the webway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The reason the Sanction is bad news, is that being a psyker is a mutation, in the evolutionary sense. If you are killing 10K psykers per day, well they are likely not passing on their genes. They are mortgaging their future, so moral considerations aside, there is a practical reason why this is 'bad news' for humanity. I believe they continued to fight the fight, because it was the single most important fight left for the long view on the human species. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 There's also the warp consequence of that sort of ritualised murder. It might have started out as 'just' a power up, but if the Emperor and Sisters know anything, it's that it's also a guaranteed recipe for disaster. What's the Emperor's view on this so-called God-Emperor that's lending miraculous vitality to things across the millennia? Vulkan wasn't very impressed with the state of affairs in M32, neither were the Sisters of Silence. Nor was the Inquisition, for that matter. The idea is frequently fronted: "let it burn and build something new amidst the ashes". If the Eldar are to be held responsible for Slaanesh, I think the Emperor has to be held responsible for the Imperium and it's God-Emperor. Whether He likes it or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 About the Emperor versus the Warmaster, it's still possible that he'll wind up incapable of going all-out against Horus in the beginning of the fight. He might act (in front of his Custodes, at least) like they're just in his necessary tools, but...I'm reminded of a manhwa I read called The Breaker: New Waves. In it, one of the initial villains has a granddaughter he does not care about, or at least that's what he tells both himself and others. But then, when her life is in danger, he realizes that holy :cuss, he does love his granddaughter after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Scribe, Xisor, I believe it was a thousand psykers. Not that it makes a difference, morally speaking. At any rate, it's precisely because the Webway was the most important thing for the species that I'm surprised the Emperor waited until the very end to relay to Jenetia Krole that it was time for the Unspoken Sanction. The Emperor's reaction in the epilogue is telling, and answers my earlier question as to why another attempt to seal Magnus' Folly wasn't made. Diocletian speaks of doing so, but he does so in the heat of battle, informed by emotion. The Emperor seems resigned to this avenue now being closed to them. And thus, we're left with an aftermath where the ritualized murder of the thousand psykers was still committed, but it only bought the Emperor enough time to rescue the remnants of his force and seal shut the gate to the Imperial Dungeon. Again, I'm sure there's a good reason for what we read. As much as I enjoyed Master of Mankind, though, getting even a bit of insight into such decisions - purely subjective opinion follows - can make a great novel even greater. I do understand that there is such a thing as too much information, especially when it comes to a creature such as the Emperor, who, by necessity, needs to remain mysterious and nigh-unknowable to us. I'm not sure that withholding that bit of data was necessary. Nor do I think it necessarily improved the story. At the end of the day, it certainly doesn't feel like this is the glaring "Why?" moment of either the novel or the series. Many are the decisions the Emperor has made for reasons unknown to us, and we can't point at this instance without casting doubt on the entire series. I'm curious about the "why" in this case, but won't lose any sleep over it. Rather, it's the intersections between Magnus the Red and the Emperor's Webway project that earn that title. The interaction between Horus Lupercal and Leman Russ prior to the Wolf King's arrival to Prospero being reduced to a mere comment in passing in False Gods still feels like a missed opportunity. Russ's frankly bizarre decisions immediately before his attack in Prospero Burns feel like a forced attempt to remedy that. The Emperor's encounter with Magnus in the opening pages of Master of Mankind is both elegantly written and apropos, but it leaves one wondering: why does a repentant Magnus not act of his own volition to remedy what he recognized to be a great wrong? Why was suicide by Russ a preferable course of action until the penultimate moment? And if it wasn't clear already, was it really impossible for the Emperor to convey to Magnus the enormous need he was in the moment the Webway was shattered? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I think Magnus realized a mistake had been made, just not the extent of it, and the importance long term. The Project was a secret remember. I highly doubt Magnus was in the know that he was destined to sit in a chair as a battery for the rest of his eternal life, once the war was won. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I don't know that he was necessarily going to be sitting on that Throne forever, per se. I think it's more of a "foreseeable future" thing, and, strangely, had the events gone otherwise, I don't think he would have shirked from that duty. As for whether Magnus was aware of the Webway or not? Who knows. You're probably right, but I think it's rather clear - both from that scene and from the acceptance he shows for his imminent sanction - that Magnus nonetheless understood how colossally he had erred. I think that had Russ demanded he surrender to be brought before the Emperor, Magnus would have acquiesced. Had the Emperor been given a chance to demonstrate his intent and his need, Magnus would have done the right thing. Magnus' tragic flaw, after all, is is his hubris. Self-sacrifice (however prolonged) to help safeguard the entirety of the Human race strikes me as something that would have appealed to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I agree, Magnus' fall was always unfortunate, but such is the twisted strands of fate. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 About the Emperor versus the Warmaster, it's still possible that he'll wind up incapable of going all-out against Horus in the beginning of the fight. He might act (in front of his Custodes, at least) like they're just in his necessary tools, but...I'm reminded of a manhwa I read called The Breaker: New Waves. In it, one of the initial villains has a granddaughter he does not care about, or at least that's what he tells both himself and others. But then, when her life is in danger, he realizes that holy , he does love his granddaughter after all. Quite possibly - it's going to be a tricky scene to write, either way. Lots of expectations on both sides Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4622935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I think Magnus realized a mistake had been made, just not the extent of it, and the importance long term. The Project was a secret remember. I highly doubt Magnus was in the know that he was destined to sit in a chair as a battery for the rest of his eternal life, once the war was won. :p i might be remembering wrongly, but didn't magnus realise the complete extent as soon as he broke through into the palace in aTS? some sort of mind link with empy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4623131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I'm not sure, its possible, but I havent read that in years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4623346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 He realized it. Even in Master of Mankind's prologue that was apparent. That's why he never had a chat with his father at that point - he was too dumbfounded at what he did and the implications to think it matters anymore. I don't know that he was necessarily going to be sitting on that Throne forever, per se. I think it's more of a "foreseeable future" thing, and, strangely, had the events gone otherwise, I don't think he would have shirked from that duty. As for whether Magnus was aware of the Webway or not? Who knows. You're probably right, but I think it's rather clear - both from that scene and from the acceptance he shows for his imminent sanction - that Magnus nonetheless understood how colossally he had erred. I think that had Russ demanded he surrender to be brought before the Emperor, Magnus would have acquiesced. Had the Emperor been given a chance to demonstrate his intent and his need, Magnus would have done the right thing. Magnus' tragic flaw, after all, is is his hubris. Self-sacrifice (however prolonged) to help safeguard the entirety of the Human race strikes me as something that would have appealed to him. That is pretty much my interpretation of Magnus as well. His story, and that of the Thousand Sons, is one of tragedy. Many tragedies of all scales coming together to twist their fate to the point of no return and giving them no real correct choice. Magnus accepted the sanctions and told his sons to stand down, but when faced with their destruction he acted in their defense and pulled them out, which also shattered him. He didn't really throw in with the traitors for a long time yet, even though he was psychically present at Isstvan V. We don't even know yet if that was actually him or merely another shard, stuck somewhere, and whether or not he found a course through his staring into the warp that might lead to a better result for all involved. Wrath of Magnus paints a pretty damning picture and there's little doubt that Magnus has been corrupted to a point of no return, but his fall was gradual and paved by good intentions and hubris. Given a chance at those definining points, I believe he would have done the right thing rather than dig a deeper grave. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4623364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I just combed over the pertinent parts. There is absolutely no doubt that Magnus understands the magnitude of what he did. Through the connection he makes with the Emperor upon his arrival in the Imperial Dungeon, Magnus comes to realize the importance of the Golden Throne, the Webway, and the fact that the damage he wrought has left Terra exposed to daemonic invasion. The question of whether or not his father will be able to hold the tide is one he specifically ponders, and it is one to which he does not know the answer. As for his own intended role? “Unspoken understanding flowed between Magnus and the Emperor. Everything Magnus had done was laid bare, and everything the Emperor planned flowed into him. He saw himself atop the Golden Throne, using his fearsome powers to guide humanity to its destiny as rulers of the galaxy. He was to be his father’s chosen instrument of ultimate victory. It broke him to know that his unthinking hubris had shattered that dream.” Excerpt From: McNeill, Graham. “A Thousand Sons.” Black Library, 2010-12. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=416079629 So yeah, I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel like Russ's actions at Prospero and Magnus's own inaction upon the arrival of the VI Legion are glaring plot holes. Any number of tragic incidents could have been imagined that would have led to the VI and XV Legions coming to blows and the last chance to save the Emperor's dream being squandered. Leman Russ sitting in his quarters, mentally wishing for Magnus to surrender quietly was not it. Magnus despondently giving leave to his warriors to seek out suicide by combat after ordering his fleet away was not it. Ah, crap. I thought time would soothe the irritation those plot developments caused me to feel. I love False Gods, A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Master of Mankind, but man, this is gonna grate on me until this series is done, isn't it! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/5/#findComment-4623368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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