Xisor Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Perhaps Magnus knows the game's up. The only opportunity to 'win through knowledge', to out-think Chaos long-term has been squandered. Squandered by him. Like the Khan in 'Path of Heaven', he's a adjusting to a new reality, one where he's bound to quite a different one than he'd have preferred. More, like the Khan, he also has an inkling into being able to put the pieces of the Emperor's design together and get an understanding of why *any* of it was necessary at all. But the understanding is too late. Of the Khan knew earlier, would he have made more of an effort to hold his brothers together longer? Who can say, save that it's darned interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4623572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Perhaps Magnus knows the game's up. The only opportunity to 'win through knowledge', to out-think Chaos long-term has been squandered. Squandered by him. Like the Khan in 'Path of Heaven', he's a adjusting to a new reality, one where he's bound to quite a different one than he'd have preferred. More, like the Khan, he also has an inkling into being able to put the pieces of the Emperor's design together and get an understanding of why *any* of it was necessary at all. But the understanding is too late. Of the Khan knew earlier, would he have made more of an effort to hold his brothers together longer? Who can say, save that it's darned interesting. Truly good point. But Magnus should have known that. He is the Magnus! Sorcerer,seer, wisdomseeker, witchking... The great irony is that the being that should have led humanity to greatness with knowledge via Emperor's creation, instead destroyed any hope for the future - with knowledge Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4626989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I wonder if Magnus was a greater psyker than Malcador. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I wonder if Magnus was a greater psyker than Malcador. I think Emperor created him to be 'better' and more powerful but due to his loss during the catastrophe Malcador was more powerful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Perhaps Magnus knows the game's up. The only opportunity to 'win through knowledge', to out-think Chaos long-term has been squandered. Squandered by him. But here's the thing. Clearly the Emperor is capable of routing the daemonic hordes. His limitation is that he needs to be on the Golden Throne to keep the Imperial Webway from collapsing outright. The Unspoken Sanction clearly isn't a viable solution for keeping the Golden Throne going for a long enough period for the Emperor to do what was needed; if it was, it would have been used time and again. Magnus, however, acknowledges that sitting on the Golden Throne was what he was intended to. Sure, the reason for him sitting there has changed, but his ability to do so doesn't appear to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Perhaps Magnus knows the game's up. The only opportunity to 'win through knowledge', to out-think Chaos long-term has been squandered. Squandered by him. But here's the thing. Clearly the Emperor is capable of routing the daemonic hordes. His limitation is that he needs to be on the Golden Throne to keep the Imperial Webway from collapsing outright. The Unspoken Sanction clearly isn't a viable solution for keeping the Golden Throne going for a long enough period for the Emperor to do what was needed; if it was, it would have been used time and again. Magnus, however, acknowledges that sitting on the Golden Throne was what he was intended to. Sure, the reason for him sitting there has changed, but his ability to do so doesn't appear to have. True - another reason to believe that Magnus would have been a Webway holder and a lantern in the light - if he would have stayed loyal. Cause we can't call him pure - he was submerged into Warp from the beginning, right in the cradle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Maybe the Terminus Decree is where they plug in all 10,000 slots filled with psykers and see if The Emperor gets a turbo charge and does something. That's what I'm hoping anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Hardly.I always thought a more interesting master plot/ narrative would be for the emperor to understand that he is expendable. And that overall he leads his sons to believe he is not worthy and takes the place of the chaos avatar. Basically the emperor's sons are left untainted. He sacrafices himself to the chaos gods to let them posses him and ultimately be destroyed to be reborn. Leading to a new era where he comes back as the star child and learns the ways of war from all of his sons in turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Perhaps Magnus knows the game's up. The only opportunity to 'win through knowledge', to out-think Chaos long-term has been squandered. Squandered by him.But here's the thing. Clearly the Emperor is capable of routing the daemonic hordes. His limitation is that he needs to be on the Golden Throne to keep the Imperial Webway from collapsing outright. The Unspoken Sanction clearly isn't a viable solution for keeping the Golden Throne going for a long enough period for the Emperor to do what was needed; if it was, it would have been used time and again. Magnus, however, acknowledges that sitting on the Golden Throne was what he was intended to. Sure, the reason for him sitting there has changed, but his ability to do so doesn't appear to have. Well, has it or hasn't it? Now that the Emperor suspects what Magnus now is, what allowed him to break into the Throne Room... in that instant the Emperor might also realise (and Magnus recognised in himself?) that the touch of Choronzon is perhaps too great. The Emperor might hope that Magnus submits and the taint isn't so severe. But Magnus, now less fettered than before, and with the Tzeentchian machinations unravelling around him, with strings snapping or becoming visible left and right... Magnus knows that even if he could submit, the taint is in him - the corruption is there so that it would get into the Throne too. In effect: Magnus getting to the Throne Room meant that Magnus can't go to the Throne without eventually destroying it. Or something like that. Sadly, I doubt you could build a good case in the text, but it also fits the facts sort of nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I feel like I am behind the power curve/forgetting something crucial: please tell me more of this Choronzon, Xisor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 About the Emperor versus the Warmaster, it's still possible that he'll wind up incapable of going all-out against Horus in the beginning of the fight. He might act (in front of his Custodes, at least) like they're just in his necessary tools, but...I'm reminded of a manhwa I read called The Breaker: New Waves. In it, one of the initial villains has a granddaughter he does not care about, or at least that's what he tells both himself and others. But then, when her life is in danger, he realizes that holy :cuss, he does love his granddaughter after all. I still feel that the way His attack manifested in that firestorm had some symbolic meaning that a lot of people skipped past, taking what Ra and Land were told as gospel. We've seen the Emperor wield formless Warp fire against xenos, but in the Webway it becomes personal, as He finally goes up against the forces of Chaos directly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Magnus' tragic flaw, after all, is is his hubris. Self-sacrifice (however prolonged) to help safeguard the entirety of the Human race strikes me as something that would have appealed to him. And being the instrument that invalidates all the warp-based knowledge and skill of himself and his Legion? Making all he worked for and ever prized irrelevant? That hubris would not yield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'm just going off of what Magnus conveys in A Thousand Sons, after his attempt to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Kastor that's not necessarily true. If he was on the throne to control the webway it doesn't mean he can't wonder with his mind, and it doesn't mean his legion still can't learn. Sure, their fields of study might change, but even then it's likely the Emperor would have still found a use for them as they were. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4627949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Kastor that's not necessarily true. If he was on the throne to control the webway it doesn't mean he can't wonder with his mind, and it doesn't mean his legion still can't learn. Sure, their fields of study might change, but even then it's likely the Emperor would have still found a use for them as they were. I doubt that the emperor took Magnus' views into account but wasn't there something, maybe in MoM, about how being throne-bound wouldn't be that bad for Magnus himself? A new life of soaring the great ocean, exploring the immaterium, free from any material concerns, acting as a beacon for humanity's progress. I agree with Phoebus, the concept of the webway and its use for the species was definitely up Magnus' alley. It would eclipse everything he'd worked for until then, true, but it was a reasonable follow on and coming from the only person he acknowledged as his intellectual superior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Sure, their fields of study might change, but even then it's likely the Emperor would have still found a use for them as they were. As they were? Yes, let's invite people who can't distinguish daemons from helpful familiars into the very heart of the Emperor's ultimate work. Let's not forget the tutelaries. --- @Phoebus, it was something I picked up on in a re-reading of A Thousand Sons a few years back (as part of 'The Saga of Fenris and Prospero'); Choronzon is the rather almighty daemon (not Tzeentch directly) that speeds Magnus from Prospero to Terra to deliver the message, the other name on the abominable pact, if you will. Do you want someone sat on the Throne who's literally been making deals with literal devils? There was another detail too though I don't recall if it was my picking up on something or seeing opportunity to add something, but I nowadays have the distinct impression that Choronzon *is* Prospero, or arose from its (original) ashes, or had a hand in making those ashes a thing in the first place. (It's an idea bolstered by the Oroboros a la Caliban.) Anyway, by that point Magnus knows he's made something of a nitwit of himself, and his Legion. The power of the warp has its ectoplasmic pseudopods around every vital organ of theirs. I doubt Magnus really believes, or in his arrogance can see any way at all, in which his surrender would actually improve the situation on Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Sure, their fields of study might change, but even then it's likely the Emperor would have still found a use for them as they were. As they were? Yes, let's invite people who can't distinguish daemons from helpful familiars into the very heart of the Emperor's ultimate work. Let's not forget the tutelaries. --- @Phoebus, it was something I picked up on in a re-reading of A Thousand Sons a few years back (as part of 'The Saga of Fenris and Prospero'); Choronzon is the rather almighty daemon (not Tzeentch directly) that speeds Magnus from Prospero to Terra to deliver the message, the other name on the abominable pact, if you will. Do you want someone sat on the Throne who's literally been making deals with literal devils? There was another detail too though I don't recall if it was my picking up on something or seeing opportunity to add something, but I nowadays have the distinct impression that Choronzon *is* Prospero, or arose from its (original) ashes, or had a hand in making those ashes a thing in the first place. (It's an idea bolstered by the Oroboros a la Caliban.) Anyway, by that point Magnus knows he's made something of a nitwit of himself, and his Legion. The power of the warp has its ectoplasmic pseudopods around every vital organ of theirs. I doubt Magnus really believes, or in his arrogance can see any way at all, in which his surrender would actually improve the situation on Terra. And what actually tutelaries are? They are daemons - daemons which great Emperor saw while at this rare times then he was at the side of TS legion during Great Crusade. Why he did not do anything at that time? Choronzon by the way is one of the 6 daemons of the inner Tzeentchian circle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Choronzon by the way is one of the 6 daemons of the inner Tzeentchian circle. I thought Choronzon was a personification of Tzeentch itself, not a mere greater daemon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Xisor, We have to ask ourselves then: what did the Emperor intend to do with Magnus once he was brought to Terra (if everything went as planned)? Methinks that the Emperor was willing to take his chances with Magnus. The alternative is to wage a conventional battle to regain and somehow hold the Webway from an effectively endless horde of daemons. That's what the Emperor ended up having to do, but it feels pretty certain that was done as a matter of course. In the end, given a choice between no Webway and Humanity's future being lost (something the Emperor thinks is pretty real) and taking a gamble with Magnus on the Golden Throne... at least long enough for the Emperor to seal the breach in the Imperial Webway... I think we both know which we he'd go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The comparison between Chaos and entropy is entirely missing the point. Because Chaos Gods are not entropic. Entropy is neutral. Yes, everything will eventually die in the heat death of the universe. That is not the fate of 40k, however, which is the point that people are missing. The entire things relies on ignoring metaphysics of the universe. If you live in 40k, you are adding strength to the Dark Gods. If you have a family in 40k, the moment your children are born, they are doomed to be tortured in the eternity by the neverborn. Every effort you put towards saving the Imperium of Mankind dooms more and more people to eternal damnation, because there is no alternative to eternal damnation in this universe. There, the point of struggle is... what, exactly? Do all souls in 40k indeed experience eternal suffering? The precise nature and fate of human "souls" in 40k has never seemed to me entirely consistent or clear. The souls of the dead are basically psychic echoes of the living person. They have some kind of consciousness and some capacity for suffering. But they are also capable of being eaten, absorbed, or even destroyed. Some of the fluff seems to indicate that eventually souls just melt away into the undifferentiated stuff of the warp. In others, they seem to be protected or preserved by the Emperor in the Warp. It seems to me that there are several possibilities, when it comes to evaluating the Emperor's purposes. (Rather than the later Imperium's, since they are fairly clueless about how things really work): o Perhaps every dead human " soul" retains a personal consciousness that suffers forever in the warp. Does the Emperor care? Does he see the "soul" as actually being that dead person, or just an annoying minor-league daemon? Perhaps he regards a person as dead when their flesh dies, and their soul as a different entity entirely. The Emperor might have considered only what is best for living humans. In that case, fighting on for as long as possible would be good because it would allow more humans to exist, live, and die, regardless of what happens to their "souls". In a way, it would make the Emperor a believer of his own atheistic Imperial Truth -- that there are no gods, only warp aliens who are not worth worshiping. o Perhaps "souls" eventually atrophy into the warp, so their conscious suffering is not in fact eternal. In that case, it would just be a sort of delayed death. Again, the Emperor might not care, weighing the temporary suffering of their "souls" against a possible eternity of human existence that could be secured if he wins the webway. o Perhaps the Emperor does protect human souls in the Warp. Maybe he has a whole little Warp realm for them, but he doesn't talk about it because he wants to promulgate atheism and the Imperial Truth. (For whatever reason. Insert all the usual speculations here.) In this case, he doesn't worry about souls suffering for eternity because he intends to shelter them. o Perhaps the Emperor is _incapable_ of giving up. If he represents or embodies the human condition, that may include a furious will-to-live both for himself and the species. In this case, the Emperor might not care that all human souls are doomed to suffer an eternity of torment, because he is so far removed from ordinary, rational cost benefit analysis, that he might as well be insane. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The tutelaries explicitly were NOT warp daemons of the Gods, they were most likely (if not stated explicitly?) shards of Magnus' will, separated from himself to better teach his Legion. He was so very much like Emps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Also, do we KNOW he is perpetual, or is that something the other perpetuals (thanks a :cussing lot Abnett...one more thing I have to ignore) choose to think he is because he's been around a good while?Didn't think about that, but you're correct that's a third-hand characterization. It could be that there is no time. If he died, he wouldn't instantly reincarnate, and it might not even be on Terra, but he was needed at Terra at that moment. Without him getting back on the throne, hell would have literally broken through. Which would be a horribly perfect fate if you're the Chaos Gods. in addition, even if he is a perpetual, it seems that the function of their resurrection/immortality isn't consistent across the board or maybe the emperor wanted to resurrect but he wasn't able to consciously object to being strapped into the throne, which then stopped his process Any of these seem plausible. Even the Emperor might not know what would happen when he dies. He's never died before. (Only his constituent shamans.) Even if he's pretty sure he'd come back, he might just not know when or how long or what powers he'd have or whether the Chaos Gods would just eat him in transit. Maybe it was just too big a risk; might as well try the Throne first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The tutelaries explicitly were NOT warp daemons of the Gods, they were most likely (if not stated explicitly?) shards of Magnus' will, separated from himself to better teach his Legion. He was so very much like Emps. Source? It seemed extremely obvious to me that they WERE Daemons seeing as they completely shafted the Thousand Sons during the razing of Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xisor Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Everything in the warp is 'of the Gods' - that's sort of why psychic powers are a problem, and largely indistinguishable from sorcery at a fundamental level. Also why I'm still convinced the Emperor's accusers could be 'technically correct' about the Emperor making a deal with the gods - he used psychic powers. --- Phoebus Did you ever read the fourth Uriel Ventris novel? Where the Grey Knights turn up and thoroughly inspect Ventris and Pasanius with an intent on purging the unclean, only to find that despite however long they spent in the Eye of Terror, being catapulted around by the Omphalous Daemonium, and even hanging out on Medrengard itself... they were pure? I imagine it was like that. The Emperor couldn't know for sure all was lost (it'd be just like the Chaos Gods to trick him into executing his last hope), but at the same time it'd be the trick that has the ring of truth... Magnus had just done something catastrophically terrible, and with all the trappings of a daemon-sorcerer Chosen of the Gods. He walks and quacks like a duck, but there's still a possibility that canard a l'orange isn't on the menu. Moreover, the novel itself already reveals a similar enterprise - where he has Angron subdued and examined with Arkhan. Perhaps the Sisters, surviving members of the Astra Telepathica, Malcador and the folk in the Astronomican could have found a way to ascertain whether Magnus was fit for purpose or not. So I suppose that's the other question: how bad could it be? Giving a potentially corrupt Magnus the power of one of the Thrones? What if Magnus was vengeful after the manner in which he found his way to Terra? NB: I absolutely love these what-ifs. Along with Chrorozon (whom I think Randian is actually correct about, sort of - it claims itself to be Tzeentch itself, despite also being Choronzon - a suitable paradox, but not one that should vex the more astute demonologists and warp specialists amongst us... after all, aren't all daemons a mere fragment of their god? Isn't the merest wisp on the wind of wariness still the very stuff of Chaos itself?) Better than all that, the big what-if that ties in neatly is Leman Russ. The Emperor had people build the Fang on Fenris; why? It's the most mighty fortress in the Imperium (after another notable one). Why not on Caliban, or Prospero, or Macragge? Why Fenris? These days, my (tinfoil-hatted) thinking is that he found out it wasn't as worthwhile as he wanted. He thought he could chain the world spirit, but it was problematic. One, it couldn't be easily controlled. Two, it leaked out nevertheless - it couldn't be contained. Three, it rivalled the Emperor in His control over Russ. Four, even with or without the Fang, there was a big ol' question mark of whether the beast had it's fangs into Leman Russ already and whether The Fang would make any real difference in that respect. So by the time Magnus' message comes around, Russ is already knee-deep in mighty dangerous cahoots. He's colluding with Mortarion in persecuting witches. He's king of hypocrisy thanks to his own wyrd-sorcerers. He's desperately suspicious of anyone and everyone that might turn on his father. He's dangerously powerful and (more than the others, at least, has a reputation for being) unhesitating in turning against his own brothers. In some respects, it's lucky for Horus that Russ didn't get wind of Horus' treachery first. Can you imagine? "I'm glad you're okay, Horus. When I heard about Davin..." "Leman, stick with me - you're a good kid, you'll go far. Further than our unreliable little brothers. Now, about our Father..." "You're planning to kill him!" <gets beaten back by Horus, races back to Terra to warn the Emperor and let the news out> ... <arrives at Terra> ... "What do you mean 'The Emperor is in seclusion' and won't see me? Whatever He's tinkering with in His laboratory is nothing compared to the news I have!" ... <kicks down the Eternity gate> ... <kicks down Rogal Dorn> ... <kicks down Malcador> ... <kicks down the laboratory door, along with all the wards guarding the secrecy of the Webway> ... And he knew, then, what he had done. He had led them here. The only being powerful enough to breach the final barriers around the Imperial Dungeon had carved a path and paved the way for them. The warning he had come to give faded from his lips. The sirens. The sirens howled on and on. Warriors of the Ten Thousand, clad in gold and ringing their king, shouted and fire skywards. Their incendiary rounds dissolved within his icy form, their rage coming to nothing. Even the Custodians didn't know him. He knew each of them by name - there was Constantin Valdor, there was Ra Endymion, there was Amon Tauromachian - yet they levelled their spears at him and opened fire. Good men, men with philosophical souls and unbreakable loyalty, seeking to destroy him. His father stood at the heart of the storm, looking up at him, looking up at the cold herald of humanity's end. Every other soul in the chamber - the menials and workers and scientists not already frozen or flying the cascade of klaxons - stared up with their king. The ice-crusted form was the last thing many of them saw, for it's violent luminescence stole their sight forever after. The Emperor looked upon him - His son, His creation - with eyes that had seen countless suns and civilisations die. "Leman," He said. "Father," breathed the avatar of winter misery in reply. Or something like that. ---- Seriously though, it's incredibly easy to slip/swap the two of them. "But what of the tuterlaries?" Without Magnus sealing the deal, all they are is wisps of the warp, no more malignant or empowered by cosmic irony than anything else. Well, not anything else. Under that sort of rage and furious fight from the beating of Horus & Erebus through to fighting his way through 'fussy bureaucrats' (Rogal, Malcador etc) into the Imperial Dungeon... well, I wouldn't count on those being Fenrisian 'Wolves'. There are no Wolves on Fenris, after all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Everything in the warp is 'of the Gods' - that's sort of why psychic powers are a problem, and largely indistinguishable from sorcery at a fundamental level. Also why I'm still convinced the Emperor's accusers could be 'technically correct' about the Emperor making a deal with the gods - he used psychic powers. --- Phoebus Did you ever read the fourth Uriel Ventris novel? Where the Grey Knights turn up and thoroughly inspect Ventris and Pasanius with an intent on purging the unclean, only to find that despite however long they spent in the Eye of Terror, being catapulted around by the Omphalous Daemonium, and even hanging out on Medrengard itself... they were pure? I imagine it was like that. The Emperor couldn't know for sure all was lost (it'd be just like the Chaos Gods to trick him into executing his last hope), but at the same time it'd be the trick that has the ring of truth... Magnus had just done something catastrophically terrible, and with all the trappings of a daemon-sorcerer Chosen of the Gods. He walks and quacks like a duck, but there's still a possibility that canard a l'orange isn't on the menu. Moreover, the novel itself already reveals a similar enterprise - where he has Angron subdued and examined with Arkhan. Perhaps the Sisters, surviving members of the Astra Telepathica, Malcador and the folk in the Astronomican could have found a way to ascertain whether Magnus was fit for purpose or not. So I suppose that's the other question: how bad could it be? Giving a potentially corrupt Magnus the power of one of the Thrones? What if Magnus was vengeful after the manner in which he found his way to Terra? NB: I absolutely love these what-ifs. Along with Chrorozon (whom I think Randian is actually correct about, sort of - it claims itself to be Tzeentch itself, despite also being Choronzon - a suitable paradox, but not one that should vex the more astute demonologists and warp specialists amongst us... after all, aren't all daemons a mere fragment of their god? Isn't the merest wisp on the wind of wariness still the very stuff of Chaos itself?) Better than all that, the big what-if that ties in neatly is Leman Russ. The Emperor had people build the Fang on Fenris; why? It's the most mighty fortress in the Imperium (after another notable one). Why not on Caliban, or Prospero, or Macragge? Why Fenris? These days, my (tinfoil-hatted) thinking is that he found out it wasn't as worthwhile as he wanted. He thought he could chain the world spirit, but it was problematic. One, it couldn't be easily controlled. Two, it leaked out nevertheless - it couldn't be contained. Three, it rivalled the Emperor in His control over Russ. Four, even with or without the Fang, there was a big ol' question mark of whether the beast had it's fangs into Leman Russ already and whether The Fang would make any real difference in that respect. So by the time Magnus' message comes around, Russ is already knee-deep in mighty dangerous cahoots. He's colluding with Mortarion in persecuting witches. He's king of hypocrisy thanks to his own wyrd-sorcerers. He's desperately suspicious of anyone and everyone that might turn on his father. He's dangerously powerful and (more than the others, at least, has a reputation for being) unhesitating in turning against his own brothers. In some respects, it's lucky for Horus that Russ didn't get wind of Horus' treachery first. Can you imagine? "I'm glad you're okay, Horus. When I heard about Davin..." "Leman, stick with me - you're a good kid, you'll go far. Further than our unreliable little brothers. Now, about our Father..." "You're planning to kill him!" <gets beaten back by Horus, races back to Terra to warn the Emperor and let the news out> ... <arrives at Terra> ... "What do you mean 'The Emperor is in seclusion' and won't see me? Whatever He's tinkering with in His laboratory is nothing compared to the news I have!" ... <kicks down the Eternity gate> ... <kicks down Rogal Dorn> ... <kicks down Malcador> ... <kicks down the laboratory door, along with all the wards guarding the secrecy of the Webway> ... And he knew, then, what he had done. He had led them here. The only being powerful enough to breach the final barriers around the Imperial Dungeon had carved a path and paved the way for them. The warning he had come to give faded from his lips. The sirens. The sirens howled on and on. Warriors of the Ten Thousand, clad in gold and ringing their king, shouted and fire skywards. Their incendiary rounds dissolved within his icy form, their rage coming to nothing. Even the Custodians didn't know him. He knew each of them by name - there was Constantin Valdor, there was Ra Endymion, there was Amon Tauromachian - yet they levelled their spears at him and opened fire. Good men, men with philosophical souls and unbreakable loyalty, seeking to destroy him. His father stood at the heart of the storm, looking up at him, looking up at the cold herald of humanity's end. Every other soul in the chamber - the menials and workers and scientists not already frozen or flying the cascade of klaxons - stared up with their king. The ice-crusted form was the last thing many of them saw, for it's violent luminescence stole their sight forever after. The Emperor looked upon him - His son, His creation - with eyes that had seen countless suns and civilisations die. "Leman," He said. "Father," breathed the avatar of winter misery in reply. Or something like that. ---- Seriously though, it's incredibly easy to slip/swap the two of them. "But what of the tuterlaries?" Without Magnus sealing the deal, all they are is wisps of the warp, no more malignant or empowered by cosmic irony than anything else. Well, not anything else. Under that sort of rage and furious fight from the beating of Horus & Erebus through to fighting his way through 'fussy bureaucrats' (Rogal, Malcador etc) into the Imperial Dungeon... well, I wouldn't count on those being Fenrisian 'Wolves'. There are no Wolves on Fenris, after all... That was a brilliant compilation of ideas/facts and theories. Special thanks for that goes to Xisor and tdemayo Thank you guys. Ohhh, and 'There are no Wolves on Fenris, after all...' - yeah, just a whole ecosystem of Wulfens ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329561-the-emperor-being-a-jerk-and-that-final-emp-v-horus-showdown/page/6/#findComment-4628671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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