Ishagu Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 In 30k imo you don't need Str D as the units that have access to it are expensive and have few shots. A much better LoW slot is a Stormsword, one of the Baneblade kit options - 36" range, Apocalyptic Blast, Str10 Ap1, Ignore Cover! If you use the unique Alpha Legion RoW, you can chose another unit from a different Legion and include it in your army. Justaerin Terminators are hands down better than Red Butchers, and you could bring 5 of those with power Fists and Combi weapons (Plasma or melta) alongside a Cataphractii Primus Medicae and put them in a unit with Alpharius. That would do well against the Red Butchers and you'll be insta killing them every time they fail a wound in CC from either Alpharius or the Justaerins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanceqi Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 IMHO a Leviathan is just the right one for you. I've seen it killed Horus and 5 terminator bodyguards in 3 turns Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Unfortunately Angron is one of the Primarchs very much equipped to deal with a Leviathan 6/7 Str 8/9 ap2 Armorbane attacks with Hatred at Initiative 7 or 8, can't quite remember. But I don't fancy the Dread's chances. The one thing I'll say about Angron and Red Butchers - with the exception of the Primarch and Sgt, they are mostly equipped with Power Axes or Claws so multi wound models with Str8 can double them out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 I took on Horus with 10 ordinary Cataphractii with power fists. I managed to remove his bodyguard before we engaged, and declined every challenge (not that it would have made any real difference). Game ended on Turn 5 with him on 1 Wound and I had around 5 Cataphractii left, so I call that a win. Point is, everything has a weakness. Horus is brutal, but he will die to massed S8 AP2 attacks. Lernaeans would have been better, as they're Stubborn with WS5, making my dicey Morale checks much safer, and he wouldn't have had bonus attacks from his "Sire of the Sons of Horus" rule (which goes to show that Lernaeans aren't as bad as people think). With Angron, his defences are his biggest weakness. Only 5 Wounds and a 3+/4++ is very fragile for a Primarch. Your opponent knows this, which is why they're in a unit of Red Butchers. Don't engage him in combat with multiple Characters or Chosen Warriors - people have suggested Justaerin and Suzerains, but I have to disagree, as he'll just challenge all of them and kill them before they swing. Firedrakes are better, but it will be a bloody fight, and requires "Coils of the Hydra". It's been mentioned, but keep Dreadnoughts well away from him, as he has Armourbane. Leviathans have a 4++, but one failed save and BOOOM! If he doesn't run Angron & Co. in a Spartan, some S10 AP2 pie plates (Medusa, Typhon, Vindicator) will ruin their day. Also, don't underestimate massed firepower - Volkite culverins will wound the Red Butchers on a 2+ (and Angron if he is in the unit). With Alpharius in your army, a 10-man Heavy Support Squad will statistically do 4 Wounds a turn, killing 2 Red Butchers. Even missile launchers cause Instant Death to them (very handy when they have Feel No Pain (6+) and 2 Wounds). If he does have a Spartan, then you need to take it out first: - Strength D is an option, but it is very unreliable. With something like a 1-shot Falchion, you have to roll a 6 on the D table, or roll a 2-5 first AND a 6 on the Vehicle Damage table to take it out. You also can't get a Falchion in 2k games. Don't get me wrong, I love the Falchion and it's my favourite Super-heavy, but it's for taking out other Super-heavies, not Primarchs. - graviton cannon Rapiers have Haywire, so are brilliant at dealing with Spartans. 6 of them, provided you can get clear firing lanes, will take one out, AND it will put the squad in Difficult & Dangerous Terrain (ie. not where they want to be). 6 Landspeeders with graviton guns will do the same thing. - another idea is laser destroyer Rapiers or Vindicators. They won't do much against a Spartan's Front Armour (due to the ever-present flare shield), but deploy them on either side of your DZ and you're going to get Side Armour shots. I would hold off on the Falchion purchase until you have your army more focused, ie. max out the Heavy Support Squad, as they're better value that way. Maybe consider some Rapiers for the reasons mentioned above. Or grab some artillery. Either way, I think you need OVERWHELMING FIREPOWER! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 He didn't have a spartan at the time but I know he's getting one. Ishagu, thanks for all that. I've got some thinking and planning to do. Caillum, that is a good summary. Looks like Vindicators are in my not too distant future. Edit: what about other Primarchs? Is it a one size fits all? The biggest drawback with Alpharius in duels with other Primarchs is the pale spear "only" granting instant death which Primarchs are immune to. Cheers Vogon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Alpharius isn't the best at Primarch v Primarch combat, but he excells at killing Monstrous Creatures, regular HQs, transports and general infantry. Even though Angron would beat him 1v1 in most cases, it wouldn't happen easily or quickly, they'd probably be locked in combat for most of the game. Vindicators are actually decent in 30k because of the Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade you can give them. Allows them to move 12" and fire, and also allows them to fire when stunned/shaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Graviton rapiers. Get graviton rapiers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Graviton rapiers. Get graviton rapiers. This. The gospel of Hesh Kadesh does not lead astray IMHO a Leviathan is just the right one for you. I've seen it killed Horus and 5 terminator bodyguards in 3 turns Angron will eat a Leviathan Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4623277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I faced Guilliman with a Suzie bodyguard. I wore down the guard with massed Quad Mortar fire, then used my Preds to unleash as many shots as I could into Guilliman when he was alone. Worked like a charm. As a fellow Alpha, I've found that using Alpharius as bait is fun (so long as he doesn't get caught). Few people can resist Primarch Fights, and exploit that when you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4639686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamy248 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Kill it with your own Primarch death star. Not that competitive an option, but looks *AWESOME* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4640594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 Kill it with your own Primarch death star. Not that competitive an option, but looks *AWESOME*Tried that :) I had a rematch against Angron and his red butchers using Alpharius and 10 Lernaean Terminators armed with power and chainfists. All the Terminators wiped each other out in one round of combat thanks to striking at the same initiative and poor old Alpharius copped it the next combat phase. He never really stood a chance against the Lord of the Red Sands. Next time it's the heavy artillery for sure. Cheers Vogon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4640696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 You must have been unlucky to lose him so quickly! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4640782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ironic Warrior Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 A trick I've found for dealing with Primarchs (Results may vary with Alpha Legion) is combi-plasma vets in a Dreadclaw. Take like 5/6 combi-plasmas, 2 flamers and give the sergeant upgrades to taste and chuck them in a Dreadclaw; turn 1 they arrive and nuke whatever squad you want them to delete. Overall costs about 390pts but I take my sergeant with Artificer Armour and Powerfist just in case they survive and are able to be useful. It's cheap(ish) and it honestly gets the job done terrifyingly well.....It'll certainly thin that kind of unit down to a more manageable size for something else to mop them up, and you'll find a use for it 9/10 times so I tend to include some variation of it because it's a good scalpel to support my main force no matter who I'm facing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4640866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 You must have been unlucky to lose him so quickly! While not forgetting Angron is hitting on 3s and wounding is 2s it then I'm relying on a 4 up ward save. Alpharius is hitting and wounding on 4s and then Angron has a 4 up ward then a 4 up feel no pain (yes he was running that character as well). I was just hopelessly outclassed. A trick I've found for dealing with Primarchs (Results may vary with Alpha Legion) is combi-plasma vets in a Dreadclaw. Take like 5/6 combi-plasmas, 2 flamers and give the sergeant upgrades to taste and chuck them in a Dreadclaw; turn 1 they arrive and nuke whatever squad you want them to delete. Overall costs about 390pts but I take my sergeant with Artificer Armour and Powerfist just in case they survive and are able to be useful. It's cheap(ish) and it honestly gets the job done terrifyingly well.....It'll certainly thin that kind of unit down to a more manageable size for something else to mop them up, and you'll find a use for it 9/10 times so I tend to include some variation of it because it's a good scalpel to support my main force no matter who I'm facing That's an interesting idea. Any reason why vets with a comi and not tac support with plasma or melter? Cheers Vogon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Costs less and they can be your compulsory troops. Vets are so good I'm surprised I don't see more 5 man suicide combi weapon squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Kill points are a thing for most missions, and a 5-man squad is taking leadership/dying very quickly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erren Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I know you said he didn't have them in a Spartan, but I was still curious what Angron and 10 Red Butchers in a Spartan would cost. And the answer is nearly 1400 points. Eesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I know you said he didn't have them in a Spartan, but I was still curious what Angron and 10 Red Butchers in a Spartan would cost. And the answer is nearly 1400 points. Eesh. Par the course for most Primarch units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimm Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Glaives work a treat vs deathstars if your playing with enough points to use it. Throw in a couple of vindi laser Destroyers to pop tanks and its nasty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4641988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ironic Warrior Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The veterans are also preferable to the support squad because once they have fired their combi-plasmas, you now have a sniper vet squad with boltguns which can continue being super useful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4642231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 The veterans are also preferable to the support squad because once they have fired their combi-plasmas, you now have a sniper vet squad with boltguns which can continue being super useful That does not make sense. Sniper plasmaguns > regular plasmaguns > sniper bolters. I agree veterans are super solid, but support squads have their place once you've already filled out compulsory choices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4642731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ironic Warrior Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 The veterans are also preferable to the support squad because once they have fired their combi-plasmas, you now have a sniper vet squad with boltguns which can continue being super useful That does not make sense. Sniper plasmaguns > regular plasmaguns > sniper bolters. I agree veterans are super solid, but support squads have their place once you've already filled out compulsory choices. Plasma gun squads are a much bigger threat and draw more fire - also the risk of getting hot is quite high so I prefer sniper vets....plus sniper flamers on them are disgusting. Also as Sons of Horus I take Maloghurst, so Vets are compulsory for me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4643661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 You just shoot Angron 135 times with bolter. Thats how you deal with him :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4644050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ironic Warrior Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 You just shoot Angron 135 times with bolter. Thats how you deal with him Or 3 40k tactical squads with tactical doctrine and their assault cannon razorbacks that does the job too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4644423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 Next gam might be Thursday but I'm not sure yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329806-dealing-with-a-primarch/page/2/#findComment-4644447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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