A.T. Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 With the release of Fall of Cadia and the three special characters ability to sub-in for an HQ choice - it would appear that the Skitarii are now able to field regular Combined Arms and Allied detachments. Could be of use for objective secured and adding Cawl to a pure mechanicus army without replacing a dominus in a formation of bringing the more costly battle servitors as part of a mechanicus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 With the release of Fall of Cadia and the three special characters ability to sub-in for an HQ choice - it would appear that the Skitarii are now able to field regular Combined Arms and Allied detachments. Could be of use for objective secured and adding Cawl to a pure mechanicus army without replacing a dominus in a formation of bringing the more costly battle servitors as part of a mechanicus. That is.... A really good spot my friend! Objective secured Skitarii Rangers are a pretty great boon :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 For pure skitarii, massed cheap ObSec (especially rangers) would be useful. On the other hand, vanguard really need the Scout bonus. So I guess a combination of two detachments would work best, with all but the ObSec-ing troops using the skitarii detachment to get Scout/Crusader. Effectively fulfilling the compulsory troops requirement for 110p isn't much of a tax, and vanguard/rangers are the backbone of the army anyway. Would also give more FA slots for dragoons, the usual 2 is a bit low. Upside of using Carl, the new relics could fill some gaps. The relic for choosing a special rule is great, imagine vanguard getting monster hunter to almost double their output against MCs (moar 6s), or having arc rifles with BS7 skyfire. Though that relic would be a bit safer in the hands/mechadendrites of a dominus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Very interesting idea, though i would only go as far as having Rangers in the force and then just ally a maniple in order to keep scout for the rest of the army as rangers are the only unit with the gunrange to sit pretty and pound away with rifles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 For larger games, the War Convocation is still probably better, as all those free upgrades & Relics (now including Cawls ones... Oh boy) is pure insanity - but where you don't want any Sicarans or a Dragoon or Onagers forced by the Battle Maniple, loading up on Obj Sec Skitarii is pretty good. But you lose canticles on everything, which is pretty clutch indeed. Talking in terms of combined Cult/ Skits though - Kataphrons are probably better objective holders than even Rangers (though more expensive). It's a tough balancing act with the armies right now... As my friend Immer put it in PM: I did some lists and I noticed something. It is a Trilemma. You have Cohort, max level Canticles and efficient compositon to worry about, but only two of the three are possible at a time. Either you have a good comp, cohort but only lvl2 canticles, or you can have cohort, max canticles but crap comp, or you can ignore the powerhouse that is the cohort but have a decent comp and max canticles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Talking in terms of combined Cult/ Skits though - Kataphrons are probably better objective holders than even Rangers (though more expensive). It's a tough balancing act with the armies right now... Kataphrons are better, but three times the points for a min-sized squad. Everything has advantages/disadvantages, there's no auto-include choice. A tough balancing act is a good sign, as it means there are roughly equal, balanced, playable choices. Not like Deathwatch (which I built, but don't play) with only one formation making them remotely usable, and every other detachment/formation being very situational at best, entirely pointless at worst. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Exactly - building a list is an art, as opposed to just net-listing all day long...! One more silver lining, with Cawl unlocking a CAD for Skitarii it means they can now take an Ordinatus :P one that will never die is Cawl is nearby :| Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I don't mean to be a party pooper, but I'm pretty sure Cawl can only sub-in for Cult Mechanicus faction armies. With that in mind, this would NOT permit you to use Skitarii in his CAD since they're Skitarii Faction and not Cult Mechanicus Faction. By that frame of reference, Celestine is Faction: Adepta Sororitas and therefore only works to lead an Adepta Sororitas CAD or AD; you couldn't put Ministorum Tempestus Faction or Astra Militarum Faction units in said CAD. Now, it's possible that I'm reading the rules incorrectly and this is not the proper interpretation, but please quote RAW when refuting so as to keep this logical! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4625994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dramagod2 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 disregard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dramagod2 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I don't mean to be a party pooper, but I'm pretty sure Cawl can only sub-in for Cult Mechanicus faction armies. With that in mind, this would NOT permit you to use Skitarii in his CAD since they're Skitarii Faction and not Cult Mechanicus Faction. By that frame of reference, Celestine is Faction: Adepta Sororitas and therefore only works to lead an Adepta Sororitas CAD or AD; you couldn't put Ministorum Tempestus Faction or Astra Militarum Faction units in said CAD. Now, it's possible that I'm reading the rules incorrectly and this is not the proper interpretation, but please quote RAW when refuting so as to keep this logical! The three triumvirate characters can be taken individually as an HQ choice for any IoM army so long as it is a Combine Arms or Allied Detachment. It's stated in Fall of Cadia. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 So (sorry getting my head round this).... Currently building up a list of skitarii, with a small kataphron detachment to bring some heavy guns..... So... I could take cawl and two units of kataphrons. They'd lose the ability to reuse canticles (which battle congregation would give them) but they'd gain obsec and still have minimal canticles? (this doesnt seem too bad for units that arent going to be pushing up field, and arent going for max canticles anyway). I could then take the skitarii detachment alongside and get all the scout etc bonus (and ill have at least 2-3 onagers in this formation, who cawl can affect each turn with his special vehicle canticles on top of the kataphrons getting minimal canticles?) This seems like quite a good plan for me so far to then build up further options from Agreed that the war convocation is more competitive, but im not getting a knight anytime soon and really dont like the battle maniple (i wanna play infantry/vanguard heavy themed...im not bothered about being top tier) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 So (sorry getting my head round this).... Currently building up a list of skitarii, with a small kataphron detachment to bring some heavy guns..... So... I could take cawl and two units of kataphrons. They'd lose the ability to reuse canticles (which battle congregation would give them) but they'd gain obsec and still have minimal canticles? (this doesnt seem too bad for units that arent going to be pushing up field, and arent going for max canticles anyway). I could then take the skitarii detachment alongside and get all the scout etc bonus (and ill have at least 2-3 onagers in this formation, who cawl can affect each turn with his special vehicle canticles on top of the kataphrons getting minimal canticles?) This seems like quite a good plan for me so far to then build up further options from Agreed that the war convocation is more competitive, but im not getting a knight anytime soon and really dont like the battle maniple (i wanna play infantry/vanguard heavy themed...im not bothered about being top tier) Yes, correct Except I'm not sure on if you can use Cawls canticles multiple times... OR even in addition to normal ones? Q: Do "Vehicles from any army of the Imperium" count towards the number of units when determining the strength of canticles or are they simply affected by them, as they do not have the canticles rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 So (sorry getting my head round this).... Currently building up a list of skitarii, with a small kataphron detachment to bring some heavy guns..... So... I could take cawl and two units of kataphrons. They'd lose the ability to reuse canticles (which battle congregation would give them) but they'd gain obsec and still have minimal canticles? (this doesnt seem too bad for units that arent going to be pushing up field, and arent going for max canticles anyway). I could then take the skitarii detachment alongside and get all the scout etc bonus (and ill have at least 2-3 onagers in this formation, who cawl can affect each turn with his special vehicle canticles on top of the kataphrons getting minimal canticles?) This seems like quite a good plan for me so far to then build up further options from Agreed that the war convocation is more competitive, but im not getting a knight anytime soon and really dont like the battle maniple (i wanna play infantry/vanguard heavy themed...im not bothered about being top tier) Yes, correct Except I'm not sure on if you can use Cawls canticles multiple times... OR even in addition to normal ones? Q: Do "Vehicles from any army of the Imperium" count towards the number of units when determining the strength of canticles or are they simply affected by them, as they do not have the canticles rules? cool the white dwarf article someone mentioned in the other thread on here...seemed to suggest you could use his personal canticles on top of the regular ones (so turn 1, pick 1 normal cantical and pick 1 cawl canticle to use).....but not use them multiple times unless you were in a formation that let you do that as part of the formation rules. I would assume that general imperium vehicles themselves dont count towards the strength of canticles unless they unless they have the canticles of the omnissah rule (pretty sure his rules say they work the same way as canticles of the omnissiah)....but then i dont know for sure as dont have the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I also don't have the book, but I think Dan has the right of it from the pics I saw. His canticles are a separate rule so you should be able to use both, and the canticles are based on Cult Mech units (well, units with the rule Canticles), not units that can benefit, so Skitarii vehicles or other allies wouldn't boost it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Guess I'll need to read the BRB again. I'm not sure ObjSec is really worth sacrificing Scouts and Crusader, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Guess I'll need to read the BRB again. I'm not sure ObjSec is really worth sacrificing Scouts and Crusader, though. I generally agree. I could see throwing a few vanguard or rangers into a CAD for it, but I would certainly not run a CAD based list! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Guess I'll need to read the BRB again. I'm not sure ObjSec is really worth sacrificing Scouts and Crusader, though. I generally agree. I could see throwing a few vanguard or rangers into a CAD for it, but I would certainly not run a CAD based list! This. Considering none but vanguard/rangers benefit from ObSec, but almost everyone does from Scout&Crusader. An additional CAD would be useful for 1. some objective campers and 2. HQ slots to include Carl, a Dominus, or both without paying 300p or more for kataphrons. It's a viable option, but not the only way. As it should be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I also don't have the book, but I think Dan has the right of it from the pics I saw. His canticles are a separate rule so you should be able to use both, and the canticles are based on Cult Mech units (well, units with the rule Canticles), not units that can benefit, so Skitarii vehicles or other allies wouldn't boost it. The Canticles of the Archmagos are stated to work "in exactly the same way as Canticles of the Omnissiah", which is enough for me to think they're interpreted as additional choices that can only be chosen while he's there, not being able to pick one from each list. Of course, personal interpretation and all that, but I can only see these as Canticles only he has the strength/authority to activate. They can't be reading two prayers at once, after all. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhhdan Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Technically, RAW they would work simultaneously right now, as they are two separate rules that work in the same way as each other. Being separate rules they do not stop you from activating one of each per turn. However with battle congregation you can't re-use Cawl's canticles, as they are not explicitly stated as "Canticles of the Omnissiah". However we might get FAQ soon, like the wrath of magnus did regarding horrors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Guess I'll need to read the BRB again. I'm not sure ObjSec is really worth sacrificing Scouts and Crusader, though. I generally agree. I could see throwing a few vanguard or rangers into a CAD for it, but I would certainly not run a CAD based list! The way im thinking about running it is to not use the skitarii as the CAD Have the skitarii detachment with scout etc then have a small detachment of 2 units of grav kataphrons in the CAD, with obsec. these sit on home objectives, and have enough range to hopefully not have to move off them (whilst making the objectives harder to grab for thigs like pesky drop pods). That way all you are giving up is the ability for them to recycle an already weak canticle. But then im farily new to admech and have yet to use kataphrons in a game..so im not sure how sturdy they are for this (the T5 2W looks good in my head though). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4626991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 But then im farily new to admech and have yet to use kataphrons in a game..so im not sure how sturdy they are for this (the T5 2W looks good in my head though). With only 4+ armour (or 4+ cover in terrain) and AdMech mostly lacking hard vehicles to soak up AT weaponry, they are going to be whittled down constantly. They soak up a bit of firepower, but don't expect them to stick around for a longer while. Also, the range is a bit low for backfield campers, breachers might be better suited for that (more range, 3+ armour). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4627007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 But then im farily new to admech and have yet to use kataphrons in a game..so im not sure how sturdy they are for this (the T5 2W looks good in my head though). With only 4+ armour (or 4+ cover in terrain) and AdMech mostly lacking hard vehicles to soak up AT weaponry, they are going to be whittled down constantly. They soak up a bit of firepower, but don't expect them to stick around for a longer while. Also, the range is a bit low for backfield campers, breachers might be better suited for that (more range, 3+ armour). cool aye i get where youre coming from with that. The list im planning will have at least 3 onagers in it to begin with (as im using the get started kits) so they'll hopefully cause a bit of a distraction. (and if my kataphrons and onagers are drawing fire whilst the vanguard get into range...thats a good thing!). Also i guess if you are having to take cawl to unlock the CAD...you could attach him to the kataphrons and sit him out front, unless there is a lot of dedicated AP2/D fire coming his way, he should hopefully be able to tank for the kataphrons quite well. A lot of options to play around with for sure!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4627160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Also i guess if you are having to take cawl to unlock the CAD...you could attach him to the kataphrons and sit him out front, unless there is a lot of dedicated AP2/D fire coming his way, he should hopefully be able to tank for the kataphrons quite well. You don't have to take Carl for a CAD, you could just settle for a regular dominus. And if you need a 200p character to keep alive a 165p unit for camping a single objective, there might be an easier way, like maybe half a dozen ranger/vanguard squads. Carls resilience could mean just sticking him with kataphron and advancing up the field, instead of hiding where none of his weapons are of any use. Maybe throw in another dominus to tank wounds/repair Carl, and you got a resilient, shooty and stabby deathstar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4627172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Really, for the cost a Holy Requisitioners Formation IMO offers Cawl much greater capability, both scooting his big slow slugness up the field that much faster and giving him instant range for his mighty gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4628527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Really, for the cost a Holy Requisitioners Formation IMO offers Cawl much greater capability, both scooting his big slow slugness up the field that much faster and giving him instant range for his mighty gun. ...unless you play against guard, who will just use blobs to block all relevant objective markers. Non-scatter deep strike is nice, but once it does scatter, there's a problem. But hey, who plays guard anyway, when there's Taudar... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/329941-skitarii-alliescombined-arms-with-cawl/#findComment-4628638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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