Tight Editorial and Linear Narrative: A Discussion

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

And can't miss Dan Abnett here - he is the case why you should and should not give freelance author too much freedom. Yes mostly his stories are beyond godlike (under strict editorial control). Ghosts, Inquisitor, HH  - they are truly awesome. But how many plot/lore/discrepancies holes he created while writing a good adventure/gothic sci-fi/fairy tale book?

 

About the same number as any other author?

 

There's no way to hold that as an informed opinion. I adore Dan's work, and he knows it well. I take a day off every time he releases a book, so I can read it, and his inbox is frequently backed up with begging messages from me to read his drafts. But Dan famously writes in "the Daniverse" - a term he smilingly uses himself - which is a lore pocket and perspective unique to him: largely formed because for so long he was Black Library, and there was far less concern over meshing up with the Studio/Forge World/old lore, etc.

 

He's not lazy in his research (I know full well he does a huge amount of it, as I've watched him doing it) and he's respectful of other authors, but there's no way to claim with a straight face that every author makes roughly the same number of lore inconsistencies. The Inquisition doesn't function the way it's depicted in Eisenhorn and Ravenor (to the point that licensees and authors are told not to emulate certain elements of the hierarchy and structure of the =][= in those books) but that doesn't stop them being some of the greatest fiction ever released by the BL - and, interestingly, for the readership to consider it the pinnacle and primer of Inquisition lore. His lasguns and plasma guns don't function the way they're classically described as functioning in the lore, either. I could go on, but since it's such a famous point, I'm surprised it needed mentioning at all.

 

Now, I make no bones about whether any conflicting version of lore or "fact" is better than any other, because that's not the point and it doesn't matter. But there's a reason "the Daniverse" is common parlance in Dan-based discussions, yet there's no Grahamverse or ADBverse or ChrisWraightverse as famous phrases.

 

Thanks - I do understand you feelings on it, partly. 

 

 

No we don't need more Dan. We need variety so things don't go stale, and some proper organisation apparently because from what I've seen people say about the beast arises there is nothing inspiring me to buy the series.

Yes we do need more Dan (actually we just need some Dan in BL) but we also need more ADB, French, Wraight, Farrer and Fehervari so agree on the variety thing. Less bolter porn and more interesting character driven stories with complex themes.

 

Sure we do. 'Warmaster' 'sson' release  is now like a bad joke, sadly. Penitent, Interceptor city etc. are unreachable dream of the 21st century. 

But we need Dan - I do miss his BL books - he and Rennie get me into 40K after all. 30 % of today new readers are getting into the setting because of this old stuff. 

And yes it is also sad - that I can't read my third 'beloved' author Matthew Farrer 'Urdesh' SMB novel, cause mister Daniverse hasn't in 5 years finished his.

 

 

 

No we don't need more Dan. We need variety so things don't go stale, and some proper organisation apparently because from what I've seen people say about the beast arises there is nothing inspiring me to buy the series.

Yes we do need more Dan (actually we just need some Dan in BL) but we also need more ADB, French, Wraight, Farrer and Fehervari so agree on the variety thing. Less bolter porn and more interesting character driven stories with complex themes.

Probably should have mentioned I'm not a Dan fan. Unremembered Empire had convenient after convenient escape and so much moustache twirling you could call Curze, Dick Dastardly.

In terms of what's left in the heresy I assume it's all nicely planned out who is doing what so I'll take what I'm given, as long as what's next from him is better for me.

 

Yes 'UE' was truly bad - it was like a small pocket of Shakesperean dramedy on pages. But we have GG, Inquisitor, Legion, HOrus Rising, Titanicus to make us happy. 

[Roomsky]

 

 

 

So, in my humble opinion:

 

1) They should stop plot-armoring one side and downgrading another exclusively for new releases. Because previously amazingly written characters in a year time slowly goes into the range of the boys for the beating (tau and space wolves (we are big boys so I will leave 'puppies' stuff out of the threads for now) are the best example. They should struggle, die and became grim and fatigued as everyone else).

 

2) Authors should have more freedom to create their own characters (it's a colossal universe) - there are a lot of humans/xenos/posthumans to select from.  They should give only small amount of time for the famous persons (who is let's be honest unkillable as hell) - Grimnar, Ragnar, Korda, Zaraphiston, Creed etc. And all other time should go with character building. It would be highest praise to the author if we would love his book and his newly created characters - that would mean he did a very hard job by creating a belivable and interesting character/war etc.

 

3) I do understand that it's a tabletop to models to supplements to books to games to etc. business. But written stuff should have a 'soul'. It's not a toilet newspaper to read. Instead sometimes then another supplement or campaign book or BL novel arrive it's like you are reading a political manifest... Just look at Techpriest duology - it was written exclusively to run with the release of new Skitarii and tech-priests range. But both novellas are ... Then look at all the horrible 'Damocles' stuff which was written to show how MIGHTY tau new models are... (That's why 'Storm of Damocles' from Justin Hill is so epicly good - for once mighty toys loose clearing the place for a story). But we have another side of the coin at the same time (mostly I think that's simply an exclusion of a rule) - Peter Fehervari's stories.  His 'Fire and Ice' novella is the best thing that ever happened to prose from BL in 'Damocles' section of W40K. Also just look at his 'Genestealers Cult' novel to run with a Genestealers Cults codex and model range. That novel has it's own 'soul' and you simply can't put it down. Can you say the same about a lot of BL books?

So again- give more freedom to the author. You could create an awesome self-sufficient story which everyone love and will by the models the author depicted jus ton 1 page. Instead usually we get a lot of bolter porn and new models shooting down old ones...

And can't miss Dan Abnett here - he is the case why you should and should not give freelance author too much freedom. Yes mostly his stories are beyond godlike (under strict editorial control). Ghosts, Inquisitor, HH  - they are truly awesome. But how many plot/lore/discrepancies holes he created while writing a good adventure/gothic sci-fi/fairy tale book?

 

4) As for the TBA directly - the storyline was meticuously planned and executed during long years for the distant future release. And even through all the planning - postponing the serie and bad editorial work lead to some horrible mistakes, plotholes, simply dull narrative and bad storytelling experience. Books like 'The Last Wall' or 'Echoes of the Long war' or 'Hunt for Vulkan' should never have been written. Same as 'Shadow of Ullanor' which simply a more dull copy of 'The Last son of Dorn'  and contained a lot of mistakes in my ebook version... But at the same time - TBA as I mentioned above was meticuously planned for a long time. Then why did it had so many bad sides?

I will tell you - it had strict control, but who controlled the controlling ones? I think if Haley or Sanders had more freedom they would have woven a much more interesting stories in itself.  

 

 

I generally agree, solid points all round. Though it makes your statement of "More direction but less freedom. But at the same time it's shouldn't be a chronological chronicle - we have Codexes for that" rather confusing. More freedom or less? Maybe a different kind of freedom?

 

I think the most interesting points are the ones about their pushing of models. I know I don;t speak for everyone, but my interest for a faction is not measured in their victories. I never liked the Ultramarines before Know no Fear, and despite a good spot of vengeance at the end, they spent most of the book getting savaged. Same for the Space Wolves, who I only began to like after reading their Heresy entries, despite the common grievance of the fact that they never win. In fact, i think the best character moments come from adversity, not success.  

 

And again ,more freedom means more potential for modular stories. Which, of course, i am in support of.

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

No we don't need more Dan. We need variety so things don't go stale, and some proper organisation apparently because from what I've seen people say about the beast arises there is nothing inspiring me to buy the series.

Yes we do need more Dan (actually we just need some Dan in BL) but we also need more ADB, French, Wraight, Farrer and Fehervari so agree on the variety thing. Less bolter porn and more interesting character driven stories with complex themes.

Probably should have mentioned I'm not a Dan fan. Unremembered Empire had convenient after convenient escape and so much moustache twirling you could call Curze, Dick Dastardly.

In terms of what's left in the heresy I assume it's all nicely planned out who is doing what so I'll take what I'm given, as long as what's next from him is better for me.

UE does mark a low point for Dan and for me feels VERY influenced by all the marvel/DC comic work he had been doing around that time. Felt almost like a superhero book. Also had the worst "Dan runs out of space/time to give us a suitably satisfying climax" ending he has produced so far. I still enjoyed some of it, the earlier stuff particularly before we got all that Curze silliness. But as others have said, Dan's BL CV is chokka full of absolute classics, so that more than makes up for it for me. I can forgive the occasional blip in an otherwise superb canon!

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

No we don't need more Dan. We need variety so things don't go stale, and some proper organisation apparently because from what I've seen people say about the beast arises there is nothing inspiring me to buy the series.

Yes we do need more Dan (actually we just need some Dan in BL) but we also need more ADB, French, Wraight, Farrer and Fehervari so agree on the variety thing. Less bolter porn and more interesting character driven stories with complex themes.

Probably should have mentioned I'm not a Dan fan. Unremembered Empire had convenient after convenient escape and so much moustache twirling you could call Curze, Dick Dastardly.

In terms of what's left in the heresy I assume it's all nicely planned out who is doing what so I'll take what I'm given, as long as what's next from him is better for me.

UE does mark a low point for Dan and for me feels VERY influenced by all the marvel/DC comic work he had been doing around that time. Felt almost like a superhero book. Also had the worst "Dan runs out of space/time to give us a suitably satisfying climax" ending he has produced so far. I still enjoyed some of it, the earlier stuff particularly before we got all that Curze silliness. But as others have said, Dan's BL CV is chokka full of absolute classics, so that more than makes up for it for me. I can forgive the occasional blip in an otherwise superb canon!

 

Exactly. Add Shakespeare 'Macbeth' tropes, add batman vs superman stuff vs doomsday, then add a little of Space Lord and Guardian of the Galaxy and you will get UE, lol. And Curze was indeed like a cartoonish 'Megatron/Galvatron' in it.

The insolence of the watch pack not to 1 but to 2 primarchs - it isn't even funny.

 

Roomsky - 'Same for the Space Wolves, who I only began to like after reading their Heresy entries, despite the common grievance of the fact that they never win. In fact, i think the best character moments come from adversity, not success. And again ,more freedom means more potential for modular stories. Which, of course, i am in support of.'

- I do agree, but: 1) Let be honest what exactly you call SW never win - they razed Prospero, they were 'miracuously' saved at Alaxxes, they were 'miracuously' saved at Yarant etc. How many legions/chapters could say the same.

2) As for the best moments come from adversity - true, they all shine in the moment of crisis and enmity.

3) And again ,more freedom means more potential for modular stories. Which, of course, i am in support of.  - totally agree. But I hope for narrative stories not the stuff like Garro. Vow of Faith was a horrible religious ... 

[MrDarth151]

 

 

 

And can't miss Dan Abnett here - he is the case why you should and should not give freelance author too much freedom. Yes mostly his stories are beyond godlike (under strict editorial control). Ghosts, Inquisitor, HH  - they are truly awesome. But how many plot/lore/discrepancies holes he created while writing a good adventure/gothic sci-fi/fairy tale book?

 

About the same number as any other author?

 

There's no way to hold that as an informed opinion. I adore Dan's work, and he knows it well. I take a day off every time he releases a book, so I can read it, and his inbox is frequently backed up with begging messages from me to read his drafts. But Dan famously writes in "the Daniverse" - a term he smilingly uses himself - which is a lore pocket and perspective unique to him: largely formed because for so long he was Black Library, and there was far less concern over meshing up with the Studio/Forge World/old lore, etc.

 

He's not lazy in his research (I know full well he does a huge amount of it, as I've watched him doing it) and he's respectful of other authors, but there's no way to claim with a straight face that every author makes roughly the same number of lore inconsistencies. The Inquisition doesn't function the way it's depicted in Eisenhorn and Ravenor (to the point that licensees and authors are told not to emulate certain elements of the hierarchy and structure of the =][= in those books) but that doesn't stop them being some of the greatest fiction ever released by the BL - and, interestingly, for the readership to consider it the pinnacle and primer of Inquisition lore. His lasguns and plasma guns don't function the way they're classically described as functioning in the lore, either. I could go on, but since it's such a famous point, I'm surprised it needed mentioning at all.

 

Now, I make no bones about whether any conflicting version of lore or "fact" is better than any other, because that's not the point and it doesn't matter. But there's a reason "the Daniverse" is common parlance in Dan-based discussions, yet there's no Grahamverse or ADBverse or ChrisWraightverse as famous phrases.

 

 

Might explain why I like his work so much...

 

That said, about that being an informed opinion: See, the thing is, I am fairly sure that I treated at least some of those inconsistencies as a deliberate attempt on part of editorial staff to broaden up the setting and properly convey the feeling of scale of the Imperium. The inconsistency fits the image of it as a monumental behemoth of an Empire plagued by poor communication and transportation, to the point that it cannot efficiently enforce its will and standarisation of method and equipment. I'm quite disappointed that was not the case.

 

And proper informed opinion would require reading through entire Black Library, GW and Forgeworld material, followed by careful analisis and comparison between sources, and nobody has that kind of time. What I've said was the impression I've got after reading BL books and GW codexes.

 

Ah, well. Back to my own research. I have an idea for a story featuring the Minotaurs chapter and I need to see if I can get them right.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

 

 

 

And can't miss Dan Abnett here - he is the case why you should and should not give freelance author too much freedom. Yes mostly his stories are beyond godlike (under strict editorial control). Ghosts, Inquisitor, HH - they are truly awesome. But how many plot/lore/discrepancies holes he created while writing a good adventure/gothic sci-fi/fairy tale book?

About the same number as any other author?

There's no way to hold that as an informed opinion. I adore Dan's work, and he knows it well. I take a day off every time he releases a book, so I can read it, and his inbox is frequently backed up with begging messages from me to read his drafts. But Dan famously writes in "the Daniverse" - a term he smilingly uses himself - which is a lore pocket and perspective unique to him: largely formed because for so long he was Black Library, and there was far less concern over meshing up with the Studio/Forge World/old lore, etc.

 

He's not lazy in his research (I know full well he does a huge amount of it, as I've watched him doing it) and he's respectful of other authors, but there's no way to claim with a straight face that every author makes roughly the same number of lore inconsistencies. The Inquisition doesn't function the way it's depicted in Eisenhorn and Ravenor (to the point that licensees and authors are told not to emulate certain elements of the hierarchy and structure of the =][= in those books) but that doesn't stop them being some of the greatest fiction ever released by the BL - and, interestingly, for the readership to consider it the pinnacle and primer of Inquisition lore. His lasguns and plasma guns don't function the way they're classically described as functioning in the lore, either. I could go on, but since it's such a famous point, I'm surprised it needed mentioning at all.

 

Now, I make no bones about whether any conflicting version of lore or "fact" is better than any other, because that's not the point and it doesn't matter. But there's a reason "the Daniverse" is common parlance in Dan-based discussions, yet there's no Grahamverse or ADBverse or ChrisWraightverse as famous phrases.

Might explain why I like his work so much...

 

That said, about that being an informed opinion: See, the thing is, I am fairly sure that I treated at least some of those inconsistencies as a deliberate attempt on part of editorial staff to broaden up the setting and properly convey the feeling of scale of the Imperium. The inconsistency fits the image of it as a monumental behemoth of an Empire plagued by poor communication and transportation, to the point that it cannot efficiently enforce its will and standarisation of method and equipment. I'm quite disappointed that was not the case.

 

And proper informed opinion would require reading through entire Black Library, GW and Forgeworld material, followed by careful analisis and comparison between sources, and nobody has that kind of time. What I've said was the impression I've got after reading BL books and GW codexes.

 

Ah, well. Back to my own research. I have an idea for a story featuring the Minotaurs chapter and I need to see if I can get them right.

Also, didn't Dan define much of the Inquisition since he was the text that accompanied 'Inquisitor'? Isn't it how "lore" has changed since?

[HeritorA]

 

 

 

 

And can't miss Dan Abnett here - he is the case why you should and should not give freelance author too much freedom. Yes mostly his stories are beyond godlike (under strict editorial control). Ghosts, Inquisitor, HH - they are truly awesome. But how many plot/lore/discrepancies holes he created while writing a good adventure/gothic sci-fi/fairy tale book?

About the same number as any other author?

There's no way to hold that as an informed opinion. I adore Dan's work, and he knows it well. I take a day off every time he releases a book, so I can read it, and his inbox is frequently backed up with begging messages from me to read his drafts. But Dan famously writes in "the Daniverse" - a term he smilingly uses himself - which is a lore pocket and perspective unique to him: largely formed because for so long he was Black Library, and there was far less concern over meshing up with the Studio/Forge World/old lore, etc.

 

He's not lazy in his research (I know full well he does a huge amount of it, as I've watched him doing it) and he's respectful of other authors, but there's no way to claim with a straight face that every author makes roughly the same number of lore inconsistencies. The Inquisition doesn't function the way it's depicted in Eisenhorn and Ravenor (to the point that licensees and authors are told not to emulate certain elements of the hierarchy and structure of the =][= in those books) but that doesn't stop them being some of the greatest fiction ever released by the BL - and, interestingly, for the readership to consider it the pinnacle and primer of Inquisition lore. His lasguns and plasma guns don't function the way they're classically described as functioning in the lore, either. I could go on, but since it's such a famous point, I'm surprised it needed mentioning at all.

 

Now, I make no bones about whether any conflicting version of lore or "fact" is better than any other, because that's not the point and it doesn't matter. But there's a reason "the Daniverse" is common parlance in Dan-based discussions, yet there's no Grahamverse or ADBverse or ChrisWraightverse as famous phrases.

Might explain why I like his work so much...

 

That said, about that being an informed opinion: See, the thing is, I am fairly sure that I treated at least some of those inconsistencies as a deliberate attempt on part of editorial staff to broaden up the setting and properly convey the feeling of scale of the Imperium. The inconsistency fits the image of it as a monumental behemoth of an Empire plagued by poor communication and transportation, to the point that it cannot efficiently enforce its will and standarisation of method and equipment. I'm quite disappointed that was not the case.

 

And proper informed opinion would require reading through entire Black Library, GW and Forgeworld material, followed by careful analisis and comparison between sources, and nobody has that kind of time. What I've said was the impression I've got after reading BL books and GW codexes.

 

Ah, well. Back to my own research. I have an idea for a story featuring the Minotaurs chapter and I need to see if I can get them right.

Also, didn't Dan define much of the Inquisition since he was the text that accompanied 'Inquisitor'? Isn't it how "lore" has changed since?

 

True. But we will soon see ourselves which road BL has taken now. - Tight Editorial and Linear Narrative or authors vision of a narrative.

 

Soon (May) we will have a release of 'Carrion Throne' which is definitely done by author vision. Black Crusade at August/September by Aaron - which is also non-linear. And 'Warmaster' in December - which is definitely non-linear, cause it's Daniverse and his personal crusade.

 

Now all we need is wait.