Sentinels or heavy weapons teams?

[Just4uCupCake]

So guys I'm trying to build a list currently and I'm on the fence of running armored sentinels or have heavy weapon squads. And I'm thinking of running 2 squads of 3 in total of either of them. Which would you guys prefer? I was thinking of outfitting them with auto cannons no matter what I think to go with. What are you thoughts ?

[The Mad Hermit]

I'm going with Heavy Weapon Squads myself, but that's only because many years ago, when I got the bulk of my Guard army (I still dislike the term 'Astra Militarum') it was in one giant bulk Infantry Company.

 

It came with six Heavy Weapon Squad boxes (so that's 18 Heavy Weapon Teams) so seeing as I already have them... I'm using them.

 

That said, I do fully intend on getting some Sentinels.

 

I'd get Sentinels were I you.

[duz_]

Armoured sentinels would be more durable and have the advantage that they can also tie up deep strikers and assault units protecting your tanks with their AV12 front. Especially now with only 1 grenade per phase.

[Otto von Bludd]

Sentinels are great!  Run 2 squads of 3 armored sentinels each in the Emperor's Talon Recon formation.  They never disappoint me.

[Just4uCupCake]

What books are some good formations found for guard ?

[Toxichobbit]

While there's advantages to Sentinels that others have already mentioned, remember they can't recieve orders and it's harder for them to take cover than it is for heavy weapon squads.

 

What is the rest of your list like? If you have plenty of armoured vehicles to occupy the opponents anti-tank then the Sentinels will be a good choice. If you only have a few vehicles then the Sentinels will be a much bigger target and unlikely to survive long.

[Just4uCupCake]

I was think 2 platoons of guardsmen 40 in each one mechanized the other footslogging 2 hydras 2 wyverns Pask with punisher and execution in his team 2 vanquishers and one regular leman withBC

[WarriorFish]

Generally I'd say Sentinels, as mobile heavy weapons makes a huge difference in effectiveness not to mention the various mischief each brand of Sentinel can get up to. But if you have some infantry squads needing a job then there's nothing wrong with having some HWTs to hold a position.

[duz_]

The cadia digital supplement is probably the way to go.

It has the formations from Red Wagh and Montka. No real fluff though. Cheaper than buying two campaign supplements.

That's all the formations we have none of which are amazing.

[Indefragable]

If you are already bringing an Infantry Platoon for whatever reason, a HWT w/ lascannons* costs 105pts for a T3 6W 5+ Ld7 unit that "can't" move and gives you 3x shots. They can have characters (Primaris/Astropath from C:IA would be my top choice) attached for buffs and can also receive Orders (Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters are yuge!). However, they are 6x guardsmen. Take 2W (as they will just standing in the breeze) and you have a VERY good chance of running off the board. 

 

3x Armored Sentinels with lascannons costs 150pts, so 50% more expensive. However, they give you 3x shots that can potentially be at 3x different targets (if you took 3x squadrons of 1) and are on an AV12 chassis that can also move and shoot. 

 

So, like so many other things, it all comes down to synergy and how you plan to use your army. 

 

Heavy Weapons Teams:

HWT's can be good, but you have to really dump points into them. On their own, they never fail to disappoint. So Prescience and/or Leadership buffs are key. So is an increase in survivability. As such, parking them behind an Aegis/on a battlement, preferably with an Ammo Dump nearby suddenly increases their effectiveness....but so does the cost. You're looking at roughly 175pts at least for such a setup.....but you potentially get 3x lascannons re-rolling 1's To Hit and Ignores Cover/Tank Hunter Orders. A HWT inside an Imperial Bunker with the ammunition store and one on top with a Primaris/Astropath gives you a relatively efficient firebase. You could expand that by adding Tank Traps to the Bunker with the Ammo Dump upgrade as well, and park 2x more HWT's in cover within 2" of the ammo dump. You now have 4x HWT's all at least re-rolling 1's to Hit. Add in or replace a HWT with a CCS w/ VHWT as well, if you like. It'll cost you, but you get what you pay for. 

 

Want fries with that? Add Coteaz for Interceptor....

 

When to use this? Well, when you don't mind them staying put for a while. This method will get you pretty decent results, but you have to build your list around it as it's hard to just "add" them in to get your money's worth. 

 

 

Sentinels: 

Their mobility is their greatest asset compared to HWT's, including the fact that you can purchase them in single units, unlike an HWT where you are tied to 3's. A single-shot BS3 platform is not the greatest so don't expect miracles. But these guys are the guerilla snipers of an IG force: always on the move, never firing from the same spot twice. That's where they start to shine: keeping your enemy distracted and pinned down. 

 

Armored vs Scout: 9/10 times I recommend the Armored version. AV12 for 40pts base is far more valuable than AV10 Move Through Cover/Scout at 35pts, IMO. AV10 collapses far too quickly to be worth it, IMO. If I take Scout Sentinels, they run with free multilasers or heavy flamers. The caveat would be Emperor's Talon Recon Company (CBG) where you at least can pick a target to get Preferred Enemy. 

 

When to use this? There's a bit more versatility with Sentinels, because they can be run in both complimentary and contrasting manners.

Complimentary: if you're going mech heavy, having some AV12 lascannons running around increases everyone's survivability because the enemy now must make a choice between firing his AT guns at either your Chimera packed with melta vets gunning for his lines, or the slipper lascannon-toting Sentinel dancing around.

 

Contrasting: if you have a relatively static force, Sentinels add some much needed mobility. So even if you have a gun-line type army, Sentinels working the edges can throw off your foe and open up new angles. 

 

TL;DR:

use whatever fits your army better: Sentinels for mobility/distraction and HWT's for entrenched gun-line firepower. 

 

 

*Lascannons: this is of course debatable, but IMHO, lascannons are the only heavy weapon really worth bringing. S9 AP2 that can make things explode is far more valuable than anything else that a HWT can take. If you're gonna spend the money, go big or go home. 

[nismogrendel]

Sentinels are great.  I like armored w/ a multilas or armored w/ an autocannon.

 

I charged two into a friend's space wolf squad (squad had a power fist, meltabomb and krak grenades).  We used the old pre-faq grenade rules and it still took 2 full turns of close combat for them to kill both sentinels.  

[Just4uCupCake]

Great info from every one thank you. I am currently building my list from scratch first time getting guard and in two weeks I have so far models wise: sentinel W/AC two leman Russ kits two demolished kits 1 HWT 2 armored fist 2 boxes of infantry 1 company command and 2 wyverns

[tvih]

My Sentinel did OK in the two games I've had with it so far. I used Plasma Cannon so the poor ballistic skill wasn't even such a problem. I'd definitely like to get two more of them at some point.

 

HWTs I have a mixed relationship with in large part because of their "immobility" and also because I have Steel Legion and Vostroyans, which can have problems shooting over cover because of the way they are modeled... but Cadian players shouldn't have that problem :P 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really like Plasma Cannon Armored Sentinels. They are pretty fantastic. They get more templates into your lists (which is never a bad thing) and it's plasma to boot, something which we lack. There are only a few things that can get plasma cannons in the Guard book, so any option to take them is welcome. Also with them being templates, it means it makes up for the BS3 that sentinels have. 

 

If you're doing a mech army, sentinels are definitely the way to go, since they will be mobile, and it's much better to have heavy weapons that can move and shoot in a mobile army. Also, IIRC, you can't buy a transport for a HWS...

[Just4uCupCake]

I'm going for a mix of mobile and stationary army if that's a thing

[Marwynn]

I think Sentinels are just overall very useful to have. There's two formations that put them to good use and in a standard CAD they do things the rest of the list can't do as easily or cheaply. 

 

That said, the Vendetta is also a Fast Attack choice and comes with three twin-linked lascannon. And it has a troop capacity of 6, so it can bring down a command squad or a special weapons squad with flamers or meltas. It's more expensive by 35 or 20 points depending on whether you go for a Scout or Armoured Sentinel squadron, but getting twin-linked is pretty handy. 

 

My preference would be Armoured Sentinels with plasma cannon to deal with the tougher infantry, a Vendetta with a flamer squad to handle both transports and mobs or a high value target, and heavy flamer Scout Sentinels to get at those guys dug into cover.

 

That's my plan, and since I'm going infantry heavy it seems doable. 

[WarriorFish]

Don't forget the Vendetta must come in from reserves along with the limitations of movement on a flyer (unless you drop into hover mode), so it's not an easy comparison. A combination is possible of course, that's always a strength if you can afford it!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Don't misunderstand me, I love heavy weapons squads too. A balanced mix of both can be achieved, though I tend towards using sentinels more frequently. Sentinels get those heavy weapons up front quickly. I do wish that codex sentinels had the same weapons options as Drop sentinels though. Heavy Bolter scout sentinels would be sweet. 

 

Heavy weapons Squads are a great backfield unit though. Put them on an objective with a clear line of fire and let them do work. Unless you use mortars, then hide them behind something and just drop mortars on stuff.

 

Both definitely have a place, though, I will say that I find sentinels to be more useful. I tend to like mobility though so take that as you will.

[dakkamasta]

I think the Emperor's Talon Recon Company really makes sentinels rise above what is currently a very average unit.

 

By getting outflank, it allows you to take armoured sentinels (i usually run them cheap with multi-lasers or autocannons) and you can be sneaky and deploy them in the far corner of your enemy's deployment zone, not only making them harder to kill by presenting the front armour, but makes it very easy to take down vehicles by getting easy rear armour shots. Combined with picking preferred enemy on something you really want dead and being able to issue an order to a squadron each turn, it gives sentinels a niche role that is otherwise very hard to find in our codex.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think the Emperor's Talon Recon Company really makes sentinels rise above what is currently a very average unit.

 

By getting outflank, it allows you to take armoured sentinels (i usually run them cheap with multi-lasers or autocannons) and you can be sneaky and deploy them in the far corner of your enemy's deployment zone, not only making them harder to kill by presenting the front armour, but makes it very easy to take down vehicles by getting easy rear armour shots. Combined with picking preferred enemy on something you really want dead and being able to issue an order to a squadron each turn, it gives sentinels a niche role that is otherwise very hard to find in our codex.

The only problem with the emperor's talon is the size. If it could be smaller it would be a bit better.

[dakkamasta]

True, it works for me because i own exactly 6 sentinels which is exactly what the formation requires.

[Captain_Krash]

I think the only size issue most people have is the fact that they don't own more than 3 sentinels which I completely understand. But it can seriously throw an opponent off guard when you slap down 9-15 sentinels all outflanking. It's not even that expensive for what they can accomplish.

 

Krash

[dakkamasta]

I think the only size issue most people have is the fact that they don't own more than 3 sentinels which I completely understand. But it can seriously throw an opponent off guard when you slap down 9-15 sentinels all outflanking. It's not even that expensive for what they can accomplish.

 

Krash

 

Exactly. The first time I ran this formation my opponent (who was my first friend to start 40k with me, so a veteran player) was caught completely off guard and frequently mentioned it during and post game about how this formation is not the type of force you expect to face when fighting guard as they normally expect a gunline.

[Gothical]

I like to run a mix.

I'll put Autocannon teams in my more static platoon squads, supported with a Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squad (or two, if points allow in larger games). This gives me a pretty good amount of options for orders, and perhaps psychic powers if I'm using a Primaris Psyker. Once Orders are accounted for I find the squad a reasonable return on points, but its primary use is to help control where the opponent is moving their vehicles, helping to protect the other parts of my force.

 

I quite like running Autocannon & Hunter-Killer Missile Scout Sentinels to either Outflank or Scout, as dropping 3 S7/8 shots per model into side/rear armour can be quite powerful, and they are not too expensive all told.

 

I also like Armoured Sentinels with Lascannons or Plasma Cannons following the Grenade FAQ, as not only do they bring mobile firepower but can be used to stall incoming assault elements. Which weapon I take depends on what else I am running, for instance I will take Lascannons if I am running a Banewolf but Plasma Cannons if I'm running a Hellhound.

 

One thing I do want to try is Scout Sentinels with Camo Netting & Lascannons, as they could be surprisingly difficult to take out at range if terrain favours you. It was an idea I liked years ago for the aesthetic, but back then you had to remain stationary for the Netting to work, and there is no such restriction now, meaning that they can use Move Through Cover to be slippery anti-tank snipers.