The Dark Angels in the Horus Heresy

[Augustus]

... Let's agree to disagree. I'm running behind on part 2 of this rant, but I will eventually get there, as well.

 

Where is part two Phoebs! :)

[HeritorA]

'To be fair, the Lion as portrayed in "Deathfire" is still far superior to how Gav Thorpe has written him. Further, while the Lion in Savage Weapons is indeed superb, having read "Leman Russ - The Great Wulf" - I think that Wraight´s Lion is a very strong contender for "best Lion presenation. Ever."

- still think A D-B one from Savage Weapons are the best. But Wraight's one is a good one too ;)

'OT I know, but Deathfire, btw, turned horrible in the last 70 pages or so. Before that, I enjoyed the book, but that last part...horrid!' - beyond horrible. Plus add to that absolutely stolen scene from Avatar then Nocturne nature arose against DG.

... Let's agree to disagree. I'm running behind on part 2 of this rant, but I will eventually get there, as well.

Where is part two Phoebs!

Indeed - Khan will have his part to shine. Even Russ a little

[bluntblade]

Still hoping for part 2. Having read Savage Weapons now, AD-B's is indeed a fine Lion. Just a shame that hearing about the other DA novels has killed my keenness to read more of their stories :/

[Beauceron]

Phoebus, I couldn't agree more.

 

The Lion has suffered in the HH due to the inconsistency of his portrayal.

 

Whilst both DoA and FA were underwhelming i really lost patience with the story arc with AoC. It felt that certain facets of the Lion's personality were exaggerated to the point of disbelief to serve as plot advancement. Tbf, I could say the same of Guillimam as well to a lesser extent.

 

The character could would have benefitted from a consistent writer from the start of the series, however due to the nature of the HH, I appreciate that would be hard to accomplish.

 

All imho of course!

[HeritorA]

Phoebus, I couldn't agree more.

 

The Lion has suffered in the HH due to the inconsistency of his portrayal.

 

Whilst both DoA and FA were underwhelming i really lost patience with the story arc with AoC. It felt that certain facets of the Lion's personality were exaggerated to the point of disbelief to serve as plot advancement. Tbf, I could say the same of Guillimam as well to a lesser extent.

 

The character could would have benefitted from a consistent writer from the start of the series, however due to the nature of the HH, I appreciate that would be hard to accomplish.

 

All imho of course!

Well - Lion do suffer from inconsistency of his portrayal. But at list - comparing to Vulkan he has A D-B, Wraight to his name.

Vulkan (through he had a moment with Abnett - Dan used his depiction from the previous 'master' and he hasn't been able to save him from his pedistry) and Corax suffered much more, lol

[Beauceron]

 

 

Phoebus, I couldn't agree more.

 

The Lion has suffered in the HH due to the inconsistency of his portrayal.

 

Whilst both DoA and FA were underwhelming i really lost patience with the story arc with AoC. It felt that certain facets of the Lion's personality were exaggerated to the point of disbelief to serve as plot advancement. Tbf, I could say the same of Guillimam as well to a lesser extent.

 

The character could would have benefitted from a consistent writer from the start of the series, however due to the nature of the HH, I appreciate that would be hard to accomplish.

 

All imho of course!

Well - Lion do suffer from inconsistency of his portrayal. But at list - comparing to Vulkan he has A D-B, Wraight to his name.

Vulkan (through he had a moment with Abnett - Dan used his depiction from the previous 'master' and he hasn't been able to save him from his pedistry) and Corax suffered much more, lol

It's a fair point but I think an argument can be made for the amount of authors covering a character impacting more on portrayal than the subjective view of writer quality.

 

Whilst some authors are perceived as more popular than others, one persons opus could be anothers trash, the larger the pool of authors that write about one character the larger the chance of distortion.

 

The Lion has had more 'hands at the helm' than most and whilst subjectively the quality portrayals have been mixed, the very nature of the mix is, for me, the most frustrating.

 

Although BL has done a good job in difficult circumstances to bring continuity to a massive project, the very nature of what they are trying to accomplish, makes sole dedication to single characters by one person (and therefore more natural development) more difficult.

[bluntblade]

AD-B's portrayal is a really quite small one, though. Thorpe has penned, what, two/three full novels with him now?

 

In what ways do Abnett and Wraight deviate from Thorpe?

[HeritorA]

AD-B's portrayal is a really quite small one, though. Thorpe has penned, what, two/three full novels with him now?

 

In what ways do Abnett and Wraight deviate from Thorpe?

 

Abnett has not deviated - his 'Vulkan' depiction in UE was consistent with what Kyme did with him.

As for the Lion - Wraight depiction of Lion in 'Leman Russ' Primarch novel was spot on, A D-B was really a short one in 'Savage weapons' and a tidbit in 'Prince of Crows'  - but it was exactly how the Lion should be envisioned.

Plus Thorpe strangely was almost consistent with that in his 'Lion' novella (except for the Numeon point of course - but that was done for the narrative purpose).

But after that we had 'Angels of Caliban' - geese that was a butchered Lion depiction.

[MrDarth151]

 

AD-B's portrayal is a really quite small one, though. Thorpe has penned, what, two/three full novels with him now?

 

In what ways do Abnett and Wraight deviate from Thorpe?

 

Abnett has not deviated - his 'Vulkan' depiction in UE was consistent with what Kyme did with him.

As for the Lion - Wraight depiction of Lion in 'Leman Russ' Primarch novel was spot on, A D-B was really a short one in 'Savage weapons' and a tidbit in 'Prince of Crows'  - but it was exactly how the Lion should be envisioned.

Plus Thorpe strangely was almost consistent with that in his 'Lion' novella (except for the Numeon point of course - but that was done for the narrative purpose).

But after that we had 'Angels of Caliban' - geese that was a butchered Lion depiction.

 

 

Eh, I disagree with that. While I do think that Savage Weapons is the best depiction of The Lion in HH, and one of the best short stories in HH period (I generally like ADB's stuff in Heresy... with the exception of the one book that shall not be spoken off until I read it third time and finally get that proper review going), I did not think that Angels of Caliban butchered Lion's depiction. It is still Thorpe's best entry at novel length into HH.

 

I still think that the Fallen Angels are the worst by far. Both in the terms of character depiction, and generally in terms of writing quality.

[HeritorA]

'I still think that the Fallen Angels are the worst by far. Both in the terms of character depiction, and generally in terms of writing quality.'

- I did not mention it - cause it's does not deserve mentioning at all

[Indefragable]

Just finished Angels of Caliban.

Hmmmmm......

The story overall:

Was strange, IMO. It wasn't bad and I actually thought the writing was decent quality. But the story itself, like the Imperium Secundus thing as a whole, felt contrived. Have we ever heard of this "illyrian Quarter" thing in any other work ever written? It seemed like there was a document that said "you must have a primarch battle, and you must have 3x primarchs interact together and one of them gets ejected for some reason" and then the rest of the story was invented (somewhat haphazardly) around that idea.

In general it did not feel grounded in any way, in part because of the lack of proportionality (what the HH series seems to lack overall): so it takes 100 Space Marines to conquer a planet, but half a legion to conquer one tiny rebellious part of one of the most fortified planets in the Imperium? <scratches head> It also seemed a bit surreal since we don't know what the Ultramarines or Blood Angels are doing while the Dark Angels do their thing. I'm sure there's some reason the UM/BA are not really mentioned at all (there better be in other novels or its just :cuss otherwise), but not even a hint of that just makes it feel out of place. Like New York City being patrolled by the Philadelphia Police Department....with no explanation where the NYPD or NY State Police are.

The whole trial of Curze thingy was a disaster, and not just in terms of how the plot unfolds.If ever there was a time to explore "war crimes" in the context of the Legion Astartes...where even the "nice guy" XVIII are genocidal monsters on a freakin' CRUSADE in space, this was it. Instead, it is passed over in favor of some dumb verbal "omg, you like, didn't listen to what I meant, bro!" <le sigh>

Anyways, that being said, it was a fun read and I breezed through it (3.5 sittings), so despite my harsh tone that shows that it's not terrible by any means. There was actually little bolter-porn (in a great way) which made the fights that much more interesting. Lion vs Curze (the re-rematch!!!!) was the title fight and it was quite well done, IMO. Curze seems to be the BL author's favorite since he is capable of pretty much anything (how many Primarchs has he fought now?), but this was a well-rounded showdown.

Minus a bajillion points for Sanguinius pretty much just "looking distracted" the whole time. Plus a million points for the Lion talking about why he follows/would follow Sangy out of all his brothers. Plus another million points for the 2 sentences where we get to see a hint of Sanguinius actually being interesting: "Guilliman had never actually seen the wrath of his brother before, but now...."

The Lion

I like his portrayal in this book. I can absolutely see why others may not, especially loyal sons of the First.

Overall, the Lion comes off as a :cuss . And I kinda like it. He's the no bull- :cuss Primarch, restless sitting down, needing motion and action above all else. And he's not afraid to tell you lazy sods that you can't keep up.

The Lion to Guilliman: "Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face." = . Pretty much one of the best lines of the HH series, and more so, essentially the sentiment of anyone who's ever rolled their eyes at the poster-boyism of the UM.

I also loved how the Lion is imaging himself as the General of the new Imperium, commander of all its forces, taking the fight to its enemies, serving as overall commander, serving as........Warmaster. That sort of validated my own thoughts that part of the reason El'Jonson is so aloof and kind of a :cuss is because he felt passed-over, denied his "right" to role or first-among-equals to his brothers. Its absolutely egotistical, but not entirely in a bad way. He compensates through action at all times....actions by his own hands. Again, that's part of why he is so aloof is because he is a "hunter in the forest," at his best when he can rely on his own senses and instincts and not get tied down by other people's crap. In some ways, his character arc in this novel is him coming to realize that very reason is why he was not--and could not?--be chosen over Horus.

How he manages to defeat Curze is pretty cool too. Even the whole "you are getting repetitive" line is pretty cool as it shows the perfect balance of phsyical and strategic attributes in the Lion. How he uses himself as bait, yet also uses the Legion at his disposal to cut some corners and not fall into Curze's traps...I thought it was pretty cool.

I need to read Savage Weapons and The Lion/Leman Russ to round out my view of our buddy El-J here, but coming from someone who has only encountered him in the HH full novels so far, I overall liked his depiction in this and found him to be rounded, have depth, and be a true character in the setting as opposed to a caricature.

The Dark Angels:

I liked Astelan the best of all the non-Primarch DA characters covered. He's a self-serving :cuss who's selfishness makes 0 sense given how he spouts off about serving alongside the Emperor himself all the time, but I found him a refreshing and unique character among the wealth of personalities so far covered in the HH setting. His insights into how the First Legion was The First Legion and that mindset was awesome. Also awesome how he applies the same strategic principles of the battlefield (leave options open, don't commit until you are sure, but once you commit don't hold anything back) to the politiking on Caliban. Shows just how effective Astartes can be at anything should they ever decide to put down their bolters for good. He's a :cuss who will get what's coming to him, but I'll be damned if I don't enjoy the show while it lasts.

Luther....still don't know what to make of him. He seems more conniving than.....inspiring...and just weak. I always thought he was one of the greatest mortal humans in the galaxy....pretty much a non-primarch primarch who's moment in the sun was stolen by the freak arrival of an actual primarch....but this portrayal gave me none of that sense and nothing to replace it with either. Oh well.

Caliban Caliban Caliban. Ok, sure. The home planet means a lot. Why again, exactly? And why is it worth leaving your genesire and Emperor over? Even though its been building up for 3+ books, the reasons for Luther + Caliban betraying the Lion just seem so weak. If there were anecdotes and snippets of life on Caliban, of Dark Angels intermingling with the villages they left behind, or a power armored DA picking up the wooden sword he pretended to fight the Great Beasts with as a boy or something, it would have more of an impact. Instead it's just weird whiny whispering. The rebel DA seem small-minded and well...dumb.

...which would not be terrible if that small-mindedness was intentional. If the narrative showed wounded ships and DA casualties from Corswain/the Lion filtering in and Luther/rebels were like "who cares" putting their heads in the sand being willfully ignorant, that too would have made more sense. Instead it's just....bleh.

That aside....

Dreadwing, Firewing, and Ironwing are really cool ideas to add to Ravenwing and Deathwing. What's the sixth wing of the Hexagrammaton (or whatever it's called)? Now I really want to know. There's a line that's passed over begging to explore: "the Dreadwing seemed to have their own motivations in the prosecution of the Illyrian Quarter" (or something to that effect). Whoa! Is that implying there are nefarious motives at play? Have the Dreadwing been standing next to their Rad shells for a bit too long?

Other than the Dreadwing and the leader of the Deathwing, the actual Dark Angels themselves don't get on stage too much. Makes sense considering there's a lot happening in the narrative, but something to note.

If you are a DA fan I think this one may have to be a must-read. They expand on the backstory of "The First," the wings including the chilling Dreadwing, and the Lion gets more screentime than pretty much any other work to date. Not saying you'll like it, but this seems like something every DA/I Legion fan should consider and make up their own mind about.

I come off harsh in the above, but overall I thought it was ok. I would give Angels of Caliban a 6.5/10 (and I'm the kind of person that thinks nothing should ever get a 10).

In comparison:

Horus Rising = 8

Prospero Burns = 9.25

Scars = 8.5

Fear to Tread = 7

If you are a DA fan I think this one may have to be a must-read simply for how they expand on the backstory of "The First," the wings including the chilling Dreadwing, and the Lion gets more screentime than pretty much any other work to date. Not saying you'll like it, but I feel that this is a must-read for DA fans.

[DarKnight]

Great review Indefragable, I agree with your critiques especially the pointlessness of Astelan's betrayal & the hollowness of the connection to Caliban.

[Azoriel]

Regarding Astelan's loyalty to the Emperor...

 

Spoilers from Master of the First

 

In Master of the First, it's revealed Astelan bears no true loyalty to even the Emperor - when his peoples were pitted against the overwhelming might of the Thunder Warriors, he viewed submission to this superior power as his only choice.   Everything he has done, probably even to include his decision to become an Astartes, has solely been about self-preservation and promoting himself, so this is consistent with the Astelan we see in Angels of Caliban.  It only makes sense that this "loyalty" vanishes in the face of a rebellion (the Heresy) that proves the all-powerful Emperor isn't as all-powerful as Astelan might have initially thought.

 

 

edit - spelling

[bluntblade]

Regarding Abnett and deviation, I was referring to his depiction of the Lion

[Augustus]

If self preservation is your goal, becoming an Astartes throwing yourself at the enemy seems counterintuitive. Maybe he should have tried to run away.

[Azoriel]

If self preservation is your goal, becoming an Astartes throwing yourself at the enemy seems counterintuitive. Maybe he should have tried to run away.

Usurping a planet from the Imperium (ala Angels of Darkness) isn't really conducive of self-preservation either - though both actions are conducive of self-promotion.  (Perhaps I should have reversed the order of those priorities.)

[rendingon1+]

 

 

If self preservation is your goal, becoming an Astartes throwing yourself at the enemy seems counterintuitive. Maybe he should have tried to run away.

Usurping a planet from the Imperium (ala Angels of Darkness) isn't really conducive of self-preservation either - though both actions are conducive of self-promotion. (Perhaps I should have reversed the order of those priorities.)

Actually A was not a voluteer - after Emp conquered his people he was taken by the Legion.

[HeritorA]

Just finished Angels of Caliban.

Hmmmmm......

The story overall:

Was strange, IMO. It wasn't bad and I actually thought the writing was decent quality. But the story itself, like the Imperium Secundus thing as a whole, felt contrived. Have we ever heard of this "illyrian Quarter" thing in any other work ever written? It seemed like there was a document that said "you must have a primarch battle, and you must have 3x primarchs interact together and one of them gets ejected for some reason" and then the rest of the story was invented (somewhat haphazardly) around that idea.

In general it did not feel grounded in any way, in part because of the lack of proportionality (what the HH series seems to lack overall): so it takes 100 Space Marines to conquer a planet, but half a legion to conquer one tiny rebellious part of one of the most fortified planets in the Imperium? <scratches head> It also seemed a bit surreal since we don't know what the Ultramarines or Blood Angels are doing while the Dark Angels do their thing. I'm sure there's some reason the UM/BA are not really mentioned at all (there better be in other novels or its just otherwise), but not even a hint of that just makes it feel out of place. Like New York City being patrolled by the Philadelphia Police Department....with no explanation where the NYPD or NY State Police are.

The whole trial of Curze thingy was a disaster, and not just in terms of how the plot unfolds.If ever there was a time to explore "war crimes" in the context of the Legion Astartes...where even the "nice guy" XVIII are genocidal monsters on a freakin' CRUSADE in space, this was it. Instead, it is passed over in favor of some dumb verbal "omg, you like, didn't listen to what I meant, bro!" <le sigh>

Anyways, that being said, it was a fun read and I breezed through it (3.5 sittings), so despite my harsh tone that shows that it's not terrible by any means. There was actually little bolter-porn (in a great way) which made the fights that much more interesting. Lion vs Curze (the re-rematch!!!!) was the title fight and it was quite well done, IMO. Curze seems to be the BL author's favorite since he is capable of pretty much anything (how many Primarchs has he fought now?), but this was a well-rounded showdown.

Minus a bajillion points for Sanguinius pretty much just "looking distracted" the whole time. Plus a million points for the Lion talking about why he follows/would follow Sangy out of all his brothers. Plus another million points for the 2 sentences where we get to see a hint of Sanguinius actually being interesting: "Guilliman had never actually seen the wrath of his brother before, but now...."

The Lion

I like his portrayal in this book. I can absolutely see why others may not, especially loyal sons of the First.

Overall, the Lion comes off as a . And I kinda like it. He's the no bull- Primarch, restless sitting down, needing motion and action above all else. And he's not afraid to tell you lazy sods that you can't keep up.

The Lion to Guilliman: "Insult me again, brother, and theoretically I will punch you in your practical face." = . Pretty much one of the best lines of the HH series, and more so, essentially the sentiment of anyone who's ever rolled their eyes at the poster-boyism of the UM.

I also loved how the Lion is imaging himself as the General of the new Imperium, commander of all its forces, taking the fight to its enemies, serving as overall commander, serving as........Warmaster. That sort of validated my own thoughts that part of the reason El'Jonson is so aloof and kind of a is because he felt passed-over, denied his "right" to role or first-among-equals to his brothers. Its absolutely egotistical, but not entirely in a bad way. He compensates through action at all times....actions by his own hands. Again, that's part of why he is so aloof is because he is a "hunter in the forest," at his best when he can rely on his own senses and instincts and not get tied down by other people's crap. In some ways, his character arc in this novel is him coming to realize that very reason is why he was not--and could not?--be chosen over Horus.

How he manages to defeat Curze is pretty cool too. Even the whole "you are getting repetitive" line is pretty cool as it shows the perfect balance of phsyical and strategic attributes in the Lion. How he uses himself as bait, yet also uses the Legion at his disposal to cut some corners and not fall into Curze's traps...I thought it was pretty cool.

I need to read Savage Weapons and The Lion/Leman Russ to round out my view of our buddy El-J here, but coming from someone who has only encountered him in the HH full novels so far, I overall liked his depiction in this and found him to be rounded, have depth, and be a true character in the setting as opposed to a caricature.

The Dark Angels:

I liked Astelan the best of all the non-Primarch DA characters covered. He's a self-serving who's selfishness makes 0 sense given how he spouts off about serving alongside the Emperor himself all the time, but I found him a refreshing and unique character among the wealth of personalities so far covered in the HH setting. His insights into how the First Legion was The First Legion and that mindset was awesome. Also awesome how he applies the same strategic principles of the battlefield (leave options open, don't commit until you are sure, but once you commit don't hold anything back) to the politiking on Caliban. Shows just how effective Astartes can be at anything should they ever decide to put down their bolters for good. He's a who will get what's coming to him, but I'll be damned if I don't enjoy the show while it lasts.

Luther....still don't know what to make of him. He seems more conniving than.....inspiring...and just weak. I always thought he was one of the greatest mortal humans in the galaxy....pretty much a non-primarch primarch who's moment in the sun was stolen by the freak arrival of an actual primarch....but this portrayal gave me none of that sense and nothing to replace it with either. Oh well.

Caliban Caliban Caliban. Ok, sure. The home planet means a lot. Why again, exactly? And why is it worth leaving your genesire and Emperor over? Even though its been building up for 3+ books, the reasons for Luther + Caliban betraying the Lion just seem so weak. If there were anecdotes and snippets of life on Caliban, of Dark Angels intermingling with the villages they left behind, or a power armored DA picking up the wooden sword he pretended to fight the Great Beasts with as a boy or something, it would have more of an impact. Instead it's just weird whiny whispering. The rebel DA seem small-minded and well...dumb.

...which would not be terrible if that small-mindedness was intentional. If the narrative showed wounded ships and DA casualties from Corswain/the Lion filtering in and Luther/rebels were like "who cares" putting their heads in the sand being willfully ignorant, that too would have made more sense. Instead it's just....bleh.

That aside....

Dreadwing, Firewing, and Ironwing are really cool ideas to add to Ravenwing and Deathwing. What's the sixth wing of the Hexagrammaton (or whatever it's called)? Now I really want to know. There's a line that's passed over begging to explore: "the Dreadwing seemed to have their own motivations in the prosecution of the Illyrian Quarter" (or something to that effect). Whoa! Is that implying there are nefarious motives at play? Have the Dreadwing been standing next to their Rad shells for a bit too long?

Other than the Dreadwing and the leader of the Deathwing, the actual Dark Angels themselves don't get on stage too much. Makes sense considering there's a lot happening in the narrative, but something to note.

If you are a DA fan I think this one may have to be a must-read. They expand on the backstory of "The First," the wings including the chilling Dreadwing, and the Lion gets more screentime than pretty much any other work to date. Not saying you'll like it, but this seems like something every DA/I Legion fan should consider and make up their own mind about.

I come off harsh in the above, but overall I thought it was ok. I would give Angels of Caliban a 6.5/10 (and I'm the kind of person that thinks nothing should ever get a 10).

In comparison:

Horus Rising = 8

Prospero Burns = 9.25

Scars = 8.5

Fear to Tread = 7

If you are a DA fan I think this one may have to be a must-read simply for how they expand on the backstory of "The First," the wings including the chilling Dreadwing, and the Lion gets more screentime than pretty much any other work to date. Not saying you'll like it, but I feel that this is a must-read for DA fans.

Splendid review - almost every point right on it.

Not the best HH story and not the best DA story. And definitely not the best cause in the bad setting of 'should be dropped long ago' Imperium Crapundis setting