Sons of Prospero and Fenris, I need your help!

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I am currently working on my 30k Word Bearers, but having seen the rules in Inferno I know I would like a second 30k army once this is finished. Trouble is, I can't decide which...

On the one hand: Thousand Sons

+ Love the fluff (huge deal for me as I am very much a fluff player) and the look of the models, especially the new ones from the weekender!

+ Huge fan of the Psychic Phase.

+ Already have a small 40k Sons force which has been distracting me from my 30k army lately - a 30k version of this is appealing.

+ Will be a Pride/Chosen list which is different from my infantry heavy Word Bearers.

- Another red army.

- Unfamiliar with their style of play.

On the other: Space Wolves

+ Really like the Norse imagery.

+ Similar style of army to my Word Bearers (large Infantry units)...

+ ...Yet totally different: colour, style, loyalists.

+ Can use the cool Custodes / Sisters models from Prospero.

- I don't know the fluff too well

- Don't like 40k Wolves at all (but I do really like what they were in 30k which is a plus).

- Haven't seen the models for key units yet.

So please, any Sorcerers and Wolves out there, make a case for your side!

Tell me what you like, one of their best stories/pieces of fluff, your opinions on the rules. Anything you want. This a pretty open forum and I'll try my best to reply to each and every one of you and really get involved in the debate and discussion as I really want to learn about these two Legions.

Note: There is nothing wrong with a bit of banter, but I would respectfully ask that everyone refrain from going too far criticising the 'other side' in this thread. I know there can be a rivalry between players from these Legions, really reflecting the fluff, and I have no problem with an argument presented for your side that includes reasons against the other, but please don't make it personal.

In all fairness, the Horus Heresy section seems to be really good for not doing this, which is part of what really attracts me to this part of the B&C, but I saw a lot of it in the 40k Warzone Fenris releases so it is just a polite request.

Thank you everyone!

[Sonoftherubric21]

So you probably are already WELL aware of who I go to bat for (check my forum posts and user name :p) but I can make a case for either, as the 30k wolves....despite being hypocrites and self-righteous fops are actually far cooler then their 40k equivalent. 

 

Ironically enough you would be walking down the same path as myself if you were to choose 30k thousand sons. I own 4 armies of at least 2000 points or more, and in order the first one was Word Bearers, followed by 40k Thousand Sons, and to be followed up with 30k Thousand Sons now that Inferno is out. 

 

So as for the wolves; The grey color scheme is far easier, cool aesthetics, vikings are awesome..... the issue with them is the "mary sue" nature of alot of their fluff and writing which to an extent gets my goat in regards to writing in general (same as it does with Sigismund, or the comic-book escapades of many a main character marine/primarch) 

 

However the look and feel of the army is very assaulty, burn your village/pillage/plunder/Viking Sagas all cool concepts, however as of the moment you just go off of their 40k figures as they dont seem to have 30k models to go off of yet, added bonus; I know what its like painting 2 red armies dang near in a row...its painful, very very painful.  So this is another reason to go along with them.

 

However like you said; the playstyle is fairly familiar, when I write lists for factions i always try to make it "different" to my other armies, For example I play white scars, for fun I wrote an Emperors Children list.......it played literally identically on the table....so obviously  a waste to do IMO, as overlap kinda kills it for me gameplay wise. 
 

In your case; you play word bearers as well as I do, its a very "melee" oriented rule-set. easy zealots or strength bonus and Melee-oriented unique units, ashen being okay, and Gal Vorbak being mandatory on the table, then you have large infantry units much like the wolves so perhaps in gameplay that would be a bit samey...if you were going for the wolves I would personally make it a Rite of War or a "unique" army.

 

My white scars run the chogorian brotherhood, therefore I dont use bikes in many other armies or lists.  

 

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As for 1k sons.....you know my vote.... ;-)  

 

We have seen almost all of their units models...fantastic models, all of the units got at least "Decent" rules, and the Cult dedications mixed with various powers in the psychic lores and the fact that each character can be dedicated to a different cult means wildly swinging Capability in various lists.

 

For example in my list I dont intend on having many (if any) real assault units, Sehkmet would be one as a counter-assault style squad but that would be it, the rest of the list I have designed as a Seige Company themed after the "Order of Ruin" so I have picked a theme, terminators with some ranged weapons, Devastators, some artillery batteries and some bulked out infantry squads to form "main line" infantry along with supporting Veterans, Characters designed to assist the Seige-mentality of my list.  As well as a single unit of breachers to protect the tanks and occupy objectives (combine with an apothecary....those suckers are hard to deal with!!!) 

 

Painting 2 red armies would suck, however if you are looking for an army that does well in the psychic phase....without putting your opponent to sleep...id say the 30k Sons are a fantastic army to do it with, The average amount of power dice in my 30k thousand sons list is between 5 and 9 power dice not including Ahriman, a pip higher with him or another praetor. so somewhere in the realm of 6-10 most games before rolling the dice for warp charge, its enough to be decent, without so many its downright abusive and is a support to the list you play which works out very well. 

 

I really have enjoyed that pretty much everything from Inferno seems at least decent, if not great. for both wolves and 1k sons, just dont use Magnus or Russ in friendly games......they really arent fair at all lmao. 

 

The Achean walkers will get use for armies with open heavy slots as we dont even have to take someone with a Cortex Controller....we just take psykers in place (duh!), the Scouts will definitely see lots of table time in the decent points cost range, especially with Amon being Synergistic.  The Sehkmet are incredibly cost-effective, the Psyker Dread in an HQ slot is another decent option (if pricey!) unique to us, and even the blade squad are damn good, however they need a delivery method to be of real use. 

 

Hopefully this helped a little, apologize for it being disjointed, Sick + At work = not terribly astute. 

[Jackalwolf]

The story of the wolves in 30k has just started. From Alexxes on it's a story of survival and resilience against all odds.

 

They're much different from WB. You can also easily have low count armies. Plus you can scratch your itch for 1k sons with a small ally detachment for your WB.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I just want to say thank you to everyone for your input so far, it is really appreciated.

So you probably are already WELL aware of who I go to bat for (check my forum posts and user name ) but I can make a case for either, as the 30k wolves....despite being hypocrites and self-righteous fops are actually far cooler then their 40k equivalent.

I totally get this view. It is the same as the Ultramarines for me: I never liked them in 40k particularly (probably as I'm a Word Bearers player), but they are portrayed much better in 30k.

I was so set on Thousand Sons until I got to know the 30k Wolves better. I do not like 40k Wolves at all so never even considered 30k; I don't like the colours, not too keen on many of the models (I really can't make myself like any of the bare heads or other thematic parts), how everything is wolf themed, and it kind of put me off the fluff. But 30k is so different and really addresses all my issues with 40k. The colours are nicer, the few upgrades FW has made so far look great with old armour marks and I'm sure anything they produce in future will be great, the theme is so much better - less anything related to wolves and instead explores the really rich Norse theme which I love, and the fluff in 30k is good.

Ironically enough you would be walking down the same path as myself if you were to choose 30k thousand sons. I own 4 armies of at least 2000 points or more, and in order the first one was Word Bearers, followed by 40k Thousand Sons, and to be followed up with 30k Thousand Sons now that Inferno is out.

That's really cool! How will you overcome so much red? That is a struggle for me (although red is easy to paint, I am just worried it's too much of the same).

So as for the wolves; The grey color scheme is far easier, cool aesthetics, vikings are awesome..... the issue with them is the "mary sue" nature of alot of their fluff and writing which to an extent gets my goat in regards to writing in general (same as it does with Sigismund, or the comic-book escapades of many a main character marine/primarch)

I know what you mean, and I think this is quite common for some faction in Games Workshop writing in general. Hopefully, Inferno will give them some much more fleshed out and well written background as all their other books are really good...

However the look and feel of the army is very assaulty, burn your village/pillage/plunder/Viking Sagas all cool concepts, however as of the moment you just go off of their 40k figures as they dont seem to have 30k models to go off of yet, added bonus; I know what its like painting 2 red armies dang near in a row...its painful, very very painful. So this is another reason to go along with them.

I really like all those concepts, and like the Word Bearers, they seem to fit Infantry heavy armies which is great. I'm not a fan of transports so this is appealing. The Elite nature of the Thousand Sons may mean that the added protection is needed, and so this bias on my part may hamper my ability to play with them.

Has there been any concept art / indication of what models they are producing / anything for the Wolves as I think this is one of the key issues for me. I adore the look of the Sons models, but I don't like the 40k Wolves models much. It seems like the Forge World team are staying away from 40k aesthetics which is good, but I would love to have an idea of what is coming before I pick a side as models are really a deal breaker for me.

However like you said; the playstyle is fairly familiar, when I write lists for factions i always try to make it "different" to my other armies, For example I play white scars, for fun I wrote an Emperors Children list.......it played literally identically on the table....so obviously a waste to do IMO, as overlap kinda kills it for me gameplay wise.

I agree with you here. My main 40k Army is Word Bearers too, which play basically the same as the 30k version as they are both very theme and fluff oriented, and for different games so it's less of a big deal. They are 2000 Points each, but to break this up a bit, I have 1000 points each of Daemons and Thousand Sons to add as an Allied Detachments for 3000 Point games.

​I also have a 40k Mechanicum force which is totally different. So as I already have 2 armies the same, the Wolves may not be the best choice as another one is pointless. Which begs the question of how can Wolves be different, yet still fluffy and thematic?

In your case; you play word bearers as well as I do, its a very "melee" oriented rule-set. easy zealots or strength bonus and Melee-oriented unique units, ashen being okay, and Gal Vorbak being mandatory on the table, then you have large infantry units much like the wolves so perhaps in gameplay that would be a bit samey...if you were going for the wolves I would personally make it a Rite of War or a "unique" army.

This is what I am really struggling with. More than half the Rites of War are off limits to the Wolves due to compulsory Grey Slayers and I am not too sure about their unique ones.

My Word Bearers run the Dark Brethren and will take Daemon Allies at 3000 Points so I think it is possible to make a the Wolves different, I'm just not sure how.

My white scars run the chogorian brotherhood, therefore I dont use bikes in many other armies or lists.

-----

As for 1k sons.....you know my vote.... ;-)

We have seen almost all of their units models...fantastic models, all of the units got at least "Decent" rules, and the Cult dedications mixed with various powers in the psychic lores and the fact that each character can be dedicated to a different cult means wildly swinging Capability in various lists.

As I mentioned earlier, I adore their new models, and this is swinging it slightly in their favour at the moment. I think the rules are really good too and leave space for so much variation.

For example in my list I dont intend on having many (if any) real assault units, Sehkmet would be one as a counter-assault style squad but that would be it, the rest of the list I have designed as a Seige Company themed after the "Order of Ruin" so I have picked a theme, terminators with some ranged weapons, Devastators, some artillery batteries and some bulked out infantry squads to form "main line" infantry along with supporting Veterans, Characters designed to assist the Seige-mentality of my list. As well as a single unit of breachers to protect the tanks and occupy objectives (combine with an apothecary....those suckers are hard to deal with!!!)

That's so cool! This sounds like a brilliant idea and would love to see this when it's completed. It is so different to the usual depiction of the Thousand Sons that it makes it so much more interesting. I am looking forward to reading Inferno though as it will hopefully introduce these alternative builds.

Painting 2 red armies would suck, however if you are looking for an army that does well in the psychic phase....without putting your opponent to sleep...id say the 30k Sons are a fantastic army to do it with, The average amount of power dice in my 30k thousand sons list is between 5 and 9 power dice not including Ahriman, a pip higher with him or another praetor. so somewhere in the realm of 6-10 most games before rolling the dice for warp charge, its enough to be decent, without so many its downright abusive and is a support to the list you play which works out very well.

This is a big appeal to me. I really like the Psychic Phase and casting lots of powers how they all interact with units is fascinating.

I really have enjoyed that pretty much everything from Inferno seems at least decent, if not great. for both wolves and 1k sons, just dont use Magnus or Russ in friendly games......they really arent fair at all lmao.

I don't really use Primarchs or Named Characters generally. I prefer to make my own generic Characters and their own story. I own Lorgar, but when my 30k Word Bearers are completed he will only come out on occasion for fun. So whichever army I decide on I will buy the Primarch as I like the model but it will only come out for special games.

The Achean walkers will get use for armies with open heavy slots as we dont even have to take someone with a Cortex Controller....we just take psykers in place (duh!), the Scouts will definitely see lots of table time in the decent points cost range, especially with Amon being Synergistic. The Sehkmet are incredibly cost-effective, the Psyker Dread in an HQ slot is another decent option (if pricey!) unique to us, and even the blade squad are damn good, however they need a delivery method to be of real use.

I love the Castellax-Achea, they look great and will always get a place in my lists. I also really like all the models and units so far. I would love to fit them all in if I could. This is another pull to the Sons as like I said above, the models are key.

Hopefully this helped a little, apologize for it being disjointed, Sick + At work = not terribly astute.

No need to apologise, this was great. Gave me a lot to think about.

When I saw your name I thought you would be arguing for the Thousand Sons, but I am glad you have taken a more balanced argument. Wow! There is a lot here and it is great. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

I replied within the quote so that hopefully my replies to specific points are a bit clearer.

The story of the wolves in 30k has just started. From Alexxes on it's a story of survival and resilience against all odds.

They're much different from WB. You can also easily have low count armies. Plus you can scratch your itch for 1k sons with a small ally detachment for your WB.

I'm not too familiar with the 30k fluff so far, so that's good to hear. Means I don't have a lot to catch up on.

That was my first thought actually, but my Word Bearers' Rite of War doesn't let me take allied Space Marines. How would you build a different army that has a distinct theme for the Wolves? I can't decide on a Rite of War for them. I don't mind if they are similar in some respects, but a distinct theme would really help differentiate them more.

Cheers.

[Runefyre]

Wolves can make a pretty awesome Armoured Breakthrough list. Lots of tanks transporting termies and grey Slayers supported by predators and a typhon.

 

Otherwise Pale Hunters for fast moving mounted infantry supported by fliers (thanks to the 2+ reserve rolls). Outflanking Vets are also an attractive option in this RoW.

 

There's also orbital assault if you want to down the pod route (a pain the arse to paint though).

[Coptimas]

Hi Apostle, I too have played WB, and WE, my loyalist forces are SW's and Custodes. I like to try stay themed and fluffy, so we have the Calth attacking force and the Prospero attacking force.

 

I think you will find that although as with any of the legions there are similarities, the Wolves will really have different things to consider from the WB's. My WB's mostly went Dark Brethren, some armour support, whilst my WE's were large tactical blobs with malacador, medusa back up. Although very assaulty armies they played completely differently in terms of tactical choices, what they synergise with, movement, target saturation etc etc. One assault army is not the same as the next, as although certain units prove to be generally better at certain jobs the way your army flows and meshes will really decide how and what you assault with what.

 

Also how did you play your WB's? I found that the psychic phase was a joke and completely dominated it with the WB's, if you have found the same then TS's might not be that much of a thrill by comparison as it will be stronger no doubt but very much reliant on a strong psychic phase to get the must from your forces.

 

Personally I would have to advise SW's, or....Custodes. Simply because should you want to you have an excellent background story for your armies, WB's and custodes have some history after all and the fanatics and the favorites, both are or were, whether viewed by themselves or not the golden boys at one point.

[Jackalwolf]

Watch the history channel series 'Vikings'.

Read then Book 7, 'Inferno' and 'Prospero Burns'.

 

If you have any doubts after that, go with Thousand Sons :)