Interview with Laurie Goulding about BL / GW

[hopkins]

Absolutely fascinating look behind the curtain, and that echoes familiar complaints seen on here over the past few years

 

https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/black-library-there-and-back-again-with-laurie-goulding/

[Scribe]

Immediate thought right off the top "How long did BL and FW carry the water for GW..."

Still reading.

EDIT: Wow, what a perfect example of a corporate train wreck! Glad you all got to come out the other end in better shape, I suppose GW being so large lets them make (large!) mistakes like that and keep on trucking.

[Jareddm]

Well that explains a huge amount when you pin this up next to the timeline of releases. The Betrayal at Calth release really did feel like a turnaround.

 

I feel most of us who keep up with BL online all had suspicions that this kind of thing was going on. There were such dramatic tonal shifts in novel releases and the community certainly had no problem voicing their opinions on the glut of limited edition stories.

 

Wonderful to see it written up from start to finish.

[Prot]

Wow. What a fascinating read. I am following the timeline with my own interests and participation in mind which really makes sense.

 

Laurie sounds very nice and well thought out in that article. I feel for him as I read it and I can feel his passion in the interview....almost as strong as my passion for the 40k universe! ;)

 

Play testing is interesting even though not the focus it is so frustrating to ne as someone with a large investment of every aspect of the hobby I aw dumbfounded by what happens there. You know in my little city in Canada we had an official playt st group once and the way GW treated it was pretty bad and then they removed that element all together and I think it shows. I'd really love to know what happens now for play testing.

 

Codex fiction. I think it's so much better now. I really do. We all disagree on what we like but I personally have varying expectations on different forms of fiction. The Cadia story is a very intense, fun pace. I like codex fiction more and more but something happened to Horus Heresy.

 

HH books. I've spent so much time convincing good friends to reinvest in the HH series. Sadly many stopped reading them feeling too many side line stories and drawn out story archs. To this day I buy and read almost all of them and every legitimate gem I almost force on my friends.

 

Art. It's fascinating and scary to hear how that process works. I used to be a professional comic penciller and I know all about the conversations like ' you have 3 more days to get those drawings to the inker or we lose a month of publication time ( and you won't get paid). But I was shocked to read about missing art til deadline.

 

Frankly I've always loved and identified 40k with the amazing art. I think we are all originally drawn to a fiction based on that first glimpse of a cover. I'll never forget looking at Guilliman punching a Word Bearers head clean off in the vacuum of space BEFORE reading the title.

 

One of my favourite side stories happens to start with Censured. The cover for Red Marked is also a beautiful piece. I almost bought the 2017 Calendar just for that. I have the Honour of Macragge print hangiing in my office. The art defines the product as much as any written word in my opinion. Thank goddess Laurie never compromised on that.

 

I always wondered why the bookstore had nicer looking larger HH books than what I'd often receive in the mail. Interesting.

 

The Audio books are SO improved. Does GW have any idea how many SoS and Custodes I painted while listening to Master of Mankind? I doubt it but I see there is a discount push for weekly books now that I'm sauced into buying.

 

What floors me most is perhaps the perception of success with the apparent dysfunction of the overall direction of the BL. That is actually quite sad to hear about authors departing. I often wondered over the past years if something in the background caused a 'break' for Graham and Dan.

 

Anyway I could go on. It's a fantastic read and I feel like I enjoy Laurie's perspective a lot in that piece and I feel like it's a side of him I haven't seen in this forum. Thank you for posting the interview.

[m_r_parker]

Finally I get the confirmation of what I've always thought - there's always going to be a clash between creative-based projects and business-minded management who don't understand the creative process. Considering the vast majority of what GW / BL / FW does is creative to varying degrees it's surprising just how bad the overall management got, especially with some of the examples given. It also explains a lot of the weirdness back in 2015 when we (speaking as a HH reader) got very little new and seemed to get a massive influx of repeated content and limited edition novellas. 

 

I can't wait to read the second part.

[A D-B]

Yeah, it was a laugh riot, let me tell you. If you'll permit me to be candid, royalties absolutely tanked, too - which is obvious from the info Laurie gives. I won't speak for any authors on their decisions, but we all discussed it more than once, and with pretty grim expressions. 

 

This period, of course, led to the desperate need to get new authors, so there's always an upside.

 

I was lucky, actually. I didn't leave - though the atmosphere soured my working relationship a significant amount - and I spent the entire 'down' period working on three novels I'd already been commissioned for (The Talon of Horus, Ragnar Blackmane, and The Master of Mankind), so I was never asked to write any real tie-in stuff. I was also probably lucky enough to be one of the mild exceptions to the rule: there was talk of certain authors sticking to their major series rather than doing the tie-in stuff, if you get me. I'd venture that was because sales justified it, or because said authors would say no to tie-ins, or both.

[Sete]

So it works like in every other company. A train wreck.

[A D-B]

So it works like in every other company. A train wreck.

 

For a short while, yeah. 

[Black Cohort]

I am incredibly interested to see the second half of the interview.

[veterannoob]

Just read both parts. Thanks!

Hope you're having fun in La-La Land, Laurie, and enjoying the not-fire season.

[mc warhammer]

that was a roller coaster read.

 

so...i'm wondering if there were any books that were in the works that we'll never get to see now?

[Ranwulf]

Man, the new CEO really changed things for GW as whole. Seriously, I could be wrong about this, but he seems to have fixed so much.

 

Ran

[bluntblade]

Does Primarchs come under the tie-in stuff, or is that after the events LJG talks about?

[Marshal Loss]

A lot of things confirmed that have long been suspected, with many nuggets added on I would never have suspected. Very interesting read

[Phoebus]

I'm curious as to what extent - if any - this played in Dan Abnett's seeming withdrawal from the setting. He's kept busy, to be sure, and had been dealing with health issues some years ago, but I wonder if he also couldn't be bothered given the conditions described.

[DukeLeto69]

Excellent interview can't wait for part 2!

 

Should be mandatory reading for anyone who has been moaning about the release patterns of the HH. Also, I think, gives a very heavy hint about why people like Dan Abnett have not been doing as much BL work and potentially added to the delay on Warmaster and Penitent (ie it was not JUST because Dan has been getting so much Marvel and DC work).

 

Also shows the perennial problem faced when art and business clashes. Look at the music and film industries for further examples! Creative people do not jump to the tune of a spreadsheet or Gantt chart!

 

While it makes for depressing reading there is clearly optimism for the future and the realisation at GW about just what they actually had with BL. The new senior management seem far more aware and clued up about their customers than has been the case for many years.

[DukeLeto69]

Yeah, it was a laugh riot, let me tell you. If you'll permit me to be candid, royalties absolutely tanked, too - which is obvious from the info Laurie gives. I won't speak for any authors on their decisions, but we all discussed it more than once, and with pretty grim expressions.

Like Laurie thank you Aaron for being candid. Totally sympathise with you and any of the authors involved. You are not working simply for the pleasure of writing BL fiction. You are a professional writer and need to put food on the table and roof over the kids head! A few years back you guys were "New York Times Best Selling Authors". What that must mean in reality is that the books were being picked up by casual readers not JUST avid GW customers (which will be a fairly tightly define group).

 

That matters in the wallet as well as on the CV.

 

I suppose (but could be wrong) that the focus on hardbacks with higher price points may have softened the drop is royalties a bit up front (although overall lower sales means long term royalties must be less forthcoming!)

 

Also (and I would not ask you to respond to this as there is only so far a freelancer can go when talking about their employer) but there has to also be an element for how as an artist or creator you are treated. If you start to be treated like a word/copy machine then that totally ignores the creative process and becomes factory like. The simple fact that the authors working for BL are already working within tie-in fiction shows they have to be professional and work to brief and deadlines but surely the "restriction" or "parameters" can only go so far until they become creatively stifling.

 

I can imagine (pure speculation) that someone like Dan Abnett is not going to take kindly to being given a much more restrictive brief (ie you MUST include these new model kits in the book).

 

While there were clearly other reasons for their decision, this change in the way BL operated with their freelance authors would also have been a factor in why McNeil, Swallow and Abnett have reduced their output with BL. These big hitters do have other options to earn their living and will be drawn to publishers who better respect their creativity.

 

It is clear the corner has been turned just by looking at the BL release schedule for 2017. In terms of 40k it is the most exciting line up in years (from the article I get that HH in 2016 was a bit of an anomaly as they needed to catch up otherwise those 9 releases would have been spread over 2015 and 2016). It feels like the "old days" with writers flexing their creative muscle. The irony is that this will probably lead to better sales and a happier reinvested fan base because we have been calling out for more complex interesting (adult) fiction for some time.

 

It would also be nice if BL/GW also looked at their release patterns. While hardback->trade paperback is the industry standard, having premium hardback exclusive to GW channels MUST have impacted on sales dramatically (and as Laurie's interview says...fractured the fanbase and removed the community discussion and excitement).

 

Back in the 2008-2012 ish era BL had moved into almost "mainstream SF publisher" territory. Books regularly appearing on sales charts. In the UK shops like Waterstones had whole sections packed with BL books. No longer!

 

Which is a shame from a fans POV as I would like to see more people reading them and enjoying the wonderful IP.

[DukeLeto69]

Just read both parts. Thanks! 

Hope you're having fun in La-La Land, Laurie, and enjoying the not-fire season.B) :lol:

Part two of THIS interview is not published yet. There was another interview with LG in December split into two parts.

[Never_born]

Hey guys, glad you found the interview interesting :) It was fascinating chatting through all this stuff with Laurie, and I'm really grateful that he was happy to discuss it. I hope it comes across just how nice a guy he is, and how despite the challenges of the last few years things seem to be really looking positive for BL and what's coming up soon.

 

Keep your eyes peeled for part two, coming soon :)

 

Also, Aaron - thanks for chipping in, it's great to hear a few of your thoughts on it.

[DukeLeto69]

Hey guys, glad you found the interview interesting :) It was fascinating chatting through all this stuff with Laurie, and I'm really grateful that he was happy to discuss it. I hope it comes across just how nice a guy he is, and how despite the challenges of the last few years things seem to be really looking positive for BL and what's coming up soon.

 

Keep your eyes peeled for part two, coming soon :)

 

Also, Aaron - thanks for chipping in, it's great to hear a few of your thoughts on it.

Thanks for doing the interview. Fascinating insight.

 

One of the most interesting (to me) parts of the interview was this...

 

++++++

We had several authors who were so dejected and so upset by this process that they essentially stopped writing for us for a while. There were rumours flying around, many of them completely inaccurate, that people had walked out of the office, too. Several people did move on, leaving Black Library and Publications, but mostly went on to other parts of the business rather than leaving the company entirely. The rumours saying “This author has sworn that they’re not going to write for Black Library again” were all nonsense, but there were people who were quite upset on both sides by the decisions that had been handed to us.

 

There were several books that people had been excited about for a very long time (naming no names!) which basically ground to a halt in the writing. I’m sure in the months and years to come, the authors will talk about them at conventions and seminars, or discuss them in more detail in author afterwords! Anyone who’s ever had to be creative on demand knows though that the minute you have a deadline, you either flourish to that deadline and you produce your best work, or it completely destroys any interest you have in that project. That happened several times, people just lost interest in their work because it wasn’t being treated like it should have been – like a work of art, a work of fiction. It was very disappointing, compared to all the great stuff that Black Library had done before.

++++++

 

Would love to know what books these might have been. The obvious must be Penitent and possibly Warmaster and Urdesh (which we are getting now so that's great). Wonder what/who else and whether these will eventually surface?

 

Also wonder whether the TBA series might originally had further planned entries from Abnett or other big hitters but then other authors needed to be drafted in once the series got resurrected?

[A D-B]

 

Yeah, it was a laugh riot, let me tell you. If you'll permit me to be candid, royalties absolutely tanked, too - which is obvious from the info Laurie gives. I won't speak for any authors on their decisions, but we all discussed it more than once, and with pretty grim expressions.

Like Laurie thank you Aaron for being candid. Totally sympathise with you and any of the authors involved. You are not working simply for the pleasure of writing BL fiction. You are a professional writer and need to put food on the table and roof over the kids head! A few years back you guys were "New York Times Best Selling Authors". What that must mean in reality is that the books were being picked up by casual readers not JUST avid GW customers (which will be a fairly tightly define group).

 

Sort of. Yes and no. Nothing is in isolation. There's some stuff prefacing the decisions Laurie talks about that aren't mentioned; some of it are the reasons for company shifts, some of it is politics between various branches of the company - it's all nebulous and hearsay and "X is a reaction to Y" filtering down and so on. This is in no way a complete story of that time in the company (no story ever is, or ever could be, in any company!) but it's as decent an account as can be expected - and it sticks to actual facts. Assumptions that rise from it, though, need to bear in mind that this period had a ramping-up prologue as well as a happy epilogue. Culture shifted for various reasons before the change to Publications. At the time, a lot of us were actually positive about the Publications change as a sign things might pick up and there'd be better communication with the Studio, etc. It soured fast for all the reasons Laurie explained, but it wasn't immediately seen as a terrible move, by any means.

 

As for the NYT-bestseller stuff, again, yes and no. For a while, in all honesty, you made the same amount from HH books (more, actually) but spread out over a longer time. The format change happened long before the Publications shift. Again, in reference to culture shifts pre-changes that Laurie mentions. 

 

And, I'll stress, there were exceptions made. I'm trying to be delicate about it, but some of us weren't asked to do only tie-in stuff, because of a combination of knowing we'd say no, and our sales justifying the exception.

 

In terms of books grinding to a halt, Dan's and my outputs are probably the most obvious. I had a dark little laugh about it yesterday actually, as I was doing the introduction to The Black Legion, and re-read the intro to The Talon of Horus. I did a double-take when I saw that the Talon intro was dated "Aaron Dembski-Bowden, March 2014". As I wrote "Aaron Dembski-Bowden, February 2017" at the end of this one, it sank in a bit. The ideal release time for a sequel is a year after the previous book. This one is coming out over three years later.

[DukeLeto69]

ADB thanks for reply.

 

I guess what really matters is that going forward things look great (both re BL and wider GW). There is a very exciting line up of releases including some of the BIG books many of us have been looking forward to for a while now.

[Ranwulf]

 

 

Yeah, it was a laugh riot, let me tell you. If you'll permit me to be candid, royalties absolutely tanked, too - which is obvious from the info Laurie gives. I won't speak for any authors on their decisions, but we all discussed it more than once, and with pretty grim expressions.

Like Laurie thank you Aaron for being candid. Totally sympathise with you and any of the authors involved. You are not working simply for the pleasure of writing BL fiction. You are a professional writer and need to put food on the table and roof over the kids head! A few years back you guys were "New York Times Best Selling Authors". What that must mean in reality is that the books were being picked up by casual readers not JUST avid GW customers (which will be a fairly tightly define group).

 

Sort of. Yes and no. Nothing is in isolation. There's some stuff prefacing the decisions Laurie talks about that aren't mentioned; some of it are the reasons for company shifts, some of it is politics between various branches of the company - it's all nebulous and hearsay and "X is a reaction to Y" filtering down and so on. This is in no way a complete story of that time in the company (no story ever is, or ever could be, in any company!) but it's as decent an account as can be expected - and it sticks to actual facts. Assumptions that rise from it, though, need to bear in mind that this period had a ramping-up prologue as well as a happy epilogue. Culture shifted for various reasons before the change to Publications. At the time, a lot of us were actually positive about the Publications change as a sign things might pick up and there'd be better communication with the Studio, etc. It soured fast for all the reasons Laurie explained, but it wasn't immediately seen as a terrible move, by any means.

 

As for the NYT-bestseller stuff, again, yes and no. For a while, in all honesty, you made the same amount from HH books (more, actually) but spread out over a longer time. The format change happened long before the Publications shift. Again, in reference to culture shifts pre-changes that Laurie mentions. 

 

And, I'll stress, there were exceptions made. I'm trying to be delicate about it, but some of us weren't asked to do only tie-in stuff, because of a combination of knowing we'd say no, and our sales justifying the exception.

 

In terms of books grinding to a halt, Dan's and my outputs are probably the most obvious. I had a dark little laugh about it yesterday actually, as I was doing the introduction to The Black Legion, and re-read the intro to The Talon of Horus. I did a double-take when I saw that the Talon intro was dated "Aaron Dembski-Bowden, March 2014". As I wrote "Aaron Dembski-Bowden, February 2017" at the end of this one, it sank in a bit. The ideal release time for a sequel is a year after the previous book. This one is coming out over three years later.

 

It's been three agonizing years, dude. I want to see Khayon again. 

 

Ran

[Mellow]

3 years is unacceptable.

[A D-B]

3 years is unacceptable.

 

You're not my mom.