Interview with Laurie Goulding about BL / GW

[Mellow]

You can't say that ... this is from a BL point of view.

 

An interview with someone from GW would be good. Saying "yeah this BL guys were whack"

[mc warhammer]

You can't say that ... this is from a BL point of view.

 

An interview with someone from GW would be good. Saying "yeah this BL guys were whack"

sometimes there are two equal sides to a story and sometimes there's not. sometimes one side was in error or out of their depth or incompetent or negligent or whatever.

 

and sometimes both sides are aware of that and admit it.

 

from this interview it sounds like GW didn't necessarily want the extra head ache of being responsible for BL's output either

[Mellow]

Just sayin'

[HeritorA]

You can't say that ... this is from a BL point of view.

 

An interview with someone from GW would be good. Saying "yeah this BL guys were whack"

Really? "yeah this BL guys were whack" - that's what you expect? We all know that outside our wishful thinking it would never happen

 

 

'from this interview it sounds like GW didn't necessarily want the extra head ache of being responsible for BL's output either'  - I think so too. In my humble opinion they doesnt want additional pain in the ass

[Felix Antipodes]

Since Laurie seems to be a bit more talkative nowadays, perhaps he might want to tell us what happened to the Kearney Dark Hunters novel and shorts. And if we are ever likely to see them in print...

[Mellow]

Does he care? He's living the dream somewhere else now!

[veterannoob]

Does he care? He's living the dream somewhere else now!

He's still stuck in LA traffic probably from 2 weeks ago.

[LaurieJGoulding]

Still not sure why Mellow takes such issue with me living in the US.

[Sete]

Can't stalk you maybe. ;)

[Mellow]

Lol. I don't take issue.

[wtwhizz]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum.  I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels.  I was roundly mocked and vilified.  Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.  I stopped buying stuff, but I'd check in from time to time.  To my complete and utter non-surprise there weren't any new Gaunt's Ghosts books.  Or Black Legion books.  But hot damn if there weren't a plethora of two-page short stories about crap no one cares about to choose from!

 

Games Workshop has been a train wreck for as long as I can remember.  Maybe it all stems from Blizzard hoodwinking them, stealing their IP, and then going on to become the biggest gaming company on the planet.   Everyone I know spends oodles of time whiling away the hours on Blizzard products like WOW, Starcraft, and Hearthstone.  Meanwhile, the only thing you can find about WH40K is guys like TotalBiscuit lamenting how utterly awful the games are that absolutely no one plays because GW hands out its IP willy-nilly to anyone and everyone. 

 

Hopefully the BL really is getting back to its old standards.  And hopefully the folks running GW do the smart thing and hand the decision making over to people that actually love this IP and know what to do with it. 

[b1soul]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company. I stopped buying stuff, but I'd check in from time to time. To my complete and utter non-surprise there weren't any new Gaunt's Ghosts books. Or Black Legion books. But hot damn if there weren't a plethora of two-page short stories about crap no one cares about to choose from!

 

Games Workshop has been a train wreck for as long as I can remember. Maybe it all stems from Blizzard hoodwinking them, stealing their IP, and then going on to become the biggest gaming company on the planet. Everyone I know spends oodles of time whiling away the hours on Blizzard products like WOW, Starcraft, and Hearthstone. Meanwhile, the only thing you can find about WH40K is guys like TotalBiscuit lamenting how utterly awful the games are that absolutely no one plays because GW hands out its IP willy-nilly to anyone and everyone.

 

Hopefully the BL really is getting back to its old standards. And hopefully the folks running GW do the smart thing and hand the decision making over to people that actually love this IP and know what to do with it.

 

I agree with you that from roughly end of 2013 to beginning of 2016, BL was mostly crap

 

As for gaming...Space Marine and Dawn of War I and II were solid

 

Everything else...bleh

 

GW has such incredibly strong IP...it's amazing they've mostly squandered it in the realm of games

[A D-B]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum.  I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels.  I was roundly mocked and vilified.  Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company. 

 

Link for proof, please. Because:

 

1. I don't believe you.
2. Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
3. I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
4. However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise. 

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all. 

 

Context.

 

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

 

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

[Taliesin]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

I knew that wouldn't go down well when I read it this afternoon

It did gave me an actual image of ADB, balancing a big bowl of water on top of his head, much like women in central Africa.

[A D-B]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

I knew that wouldn't go down well when I read it this afternoon

It did gave me an actual image of ADB, balancing a big bowl of water on top of his head, much like women in central Africa.

EDIT: ...I want to try that now.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

I knew that wouldn't go down well when I read it this afternoon

It did gave me an actual image of ADB, balancing a big bowl of water on top of his head, much like women in central Africa.

EDIT: ...I want to try that now.

film your efforts?

[Mellow]

Can YOU STAY ON TOPIC!!!

[Black Cohort]

Do we know when part II is going to be released?

[wtwhizz]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

Link for proof, please. Because:

1. I don't believe you.
2. Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
3. I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
4. However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise.

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all.

Context.

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

Hah! Glad to see you're still in fine form ADB. And since you want proof? Well. . .here we go. Read 'em and weep!

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly. They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books. As in books based post-Heresy. Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others. However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore. It's all short story BS. So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story. A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

Secondly, they started switching to audio books. Um, I like, ya know, reading. Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories. Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story. A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all. It's essentially a voiced over short story. For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl. Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right? Yeah, not so much. Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what? He betrays them. Har har.

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer. It's wrecking the brand. Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back. Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

The Black Library is just sad right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!", several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time. Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax. Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right? Jesus H. Christ. It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters. Maybe that's GW's new plan. Write everything at a 6th grade reading level. Profit.

It's just aggravating. In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more. As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

---------------------------

witchunter kraine, on 16 Nov 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

Hey, I get it. Fanboys are gonna fanboy.

I love the Warhammer 40k universe. I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now. I don't think I was that harsh on them.

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content. The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories. They're just a couple of pages long.

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting. Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback. And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right? I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.

Meh. I'll be honest. I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world. THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine. Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games. They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have? :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really? I haven't seen that. Is it somewhere on the BL site?

----------------------------

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, The Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our Hour of Need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite?

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

-----------------------------

Inquisitor Quidam, on 29 Nov 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it. Sheesh.

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices. I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does? Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby. Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while. Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me. As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper. Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers. That has happened almost everywhere else in book land. Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things. I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

-----------------------

facmanpob, on 11 Dec 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

wtwhizz, on 03 Dec 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

You are so right, dude. Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve. I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again? Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint? That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it? I thought it was always the other way around. The customer is always right. If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff. You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth. This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it! it sucks! you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

My electricity bills are sky high, too. I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point. I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market.

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff? They'd just shutter the BL. Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels. And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game. It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States. Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC. What happened? The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

-----------------------

So, basically, everything Laurie said was happening, I pointed out all that time ago.

1. The company shifted to crapping out quantity instead of quality.

2. To achieve this goal they hired a bunch of no-name writers and started paying their good writers less.

3. Novel numbers did drop. Laurie says ONE HH book in 2015.

4. Since they really only cared about the bottom line, the customer was getting gouged.

5. You hand waved it all away as "it's great stuff and people love it!"

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached.

[Tyrannicide]

You know, a simple link works, too. My God.

[A D-B]

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached.

I was so worried, after all your nonsense, that you might magically be right. But you quoted me from 2013, long before any of the stuff Laurie was talking about. Phew. You took a downward year and a single reply as shilling for the company and related to stuff 1.5 to 3 years later.

EDIT: Also, re-reading my actual quote even back then, you seriously need to come at that with a weird agenda to read your results into it, man. What even. I was so polite, too!

Like I said, you misquoted me and misinterpreted the situation (and missed the part where everyone, far more recently and while it was happening, actually all pointed out the changes and you weren't a solo renegade visionary). But I accept your apology, though!

[b1soul]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

Link for proof, please. Because:

• I don't believe you.
• Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
• I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
• However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise.

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all.

Context.

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

Hah! Glad to see you're still in fine form ADB. And since you want proof? Well. . .here we go. Read 'em and weep!

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly. They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books. As in books based post-Heresy. Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others. However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore. It's all short story BS. So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story. A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

Secondly, they started switching to audio books. Um, I like, ya know, reading. Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories. Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story. A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all. It's essentially a voiced over short story. For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl. Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right? Yeah, not so much. Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what? He betrays them. Har har.

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer. It's wrecking the brand. Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back. Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

The Black Library is just sad right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!", several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time. Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax. Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right? Jesus H. Christ. It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters. Maybe that's GW's new plan. Write everything at a 6th grade reading level. Profit.

It's just aggravating. In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more. As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

---------------------------

witchunter kraine, on 16 Nov 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

Hey, I get it. Fanboys are gonna fanboy.

I love the Warhammer 40k universe. I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now. I don't think I was that harsh on them.

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content. The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories. They're just a couple of pages long.

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting. Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback. And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right? I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.

Meh. I'll be honest. I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world. THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine. Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games. They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have? :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really? I haven't seen that. Is it somewhere on the BL site?

----------------------------

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, The Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our Hour of Need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite? :wink:

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

-----------------------------

Inquisitor Quidam, on 29 Nov 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it. Sheesh.

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices. I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does? Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby. Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while. Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me. As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper. Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers. That has happened almost everywhere else in book land. Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things. I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

-----------------------

facmanpob, on 11 Dec 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

wtwhizz, on 03 Dec 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

You are so right, dude. Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve. I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again? Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint? That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it? I thought it was always the other way around. The customer is always right. If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff. You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth. This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it! it sucks! you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

My electricity bills are sky high, too. I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point. I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market.

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff? They'd just shutter the BL. Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels. And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game. It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States. Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC. What happened? The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

-----------------------

So, basically, everything Laurie said was happening, I pointed out all that time ago.

1. The company shifted to crapping out quantity instead of quality.

2. To achieve this goal they hired a bunch of no-name writers and started paying their good writers less.

3. Novel numbers did drop. Laurie says ONE HH book in 2015.

4. Since they really only cared about the bottom line, the customer was getting gouged.

5. You hand waved it all away as "it's great stuff and people love it!"

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached. :D

You know, a simple link works, too. My God.

The man made a point...multiple points. I'm glad he organized and re-posted here for my reading amusement.

Late 2013 to early 2016 was a generally terrible time at BL and he saw it early. Props to him for calling it then and not being cowed by the collective belittling of his opinion

[A D-B]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

Link for proof, please. Because:

• I don't believe you.
• Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
• I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
• However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise.

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all.

Context.

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

Hah! Glad to see you're still in fine form ADB. And since you want proof? Well. . .here we go. Read 'em and weep!

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly. They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books. As in books based post-Heresy. Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others. However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore. It's all short story BS. So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story. A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

Secondly, they started switching to audio books. Um, I like, ya know, reading. Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories. Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story. A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all. It's essentially a voiced over short story. For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl. Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right? Yeah, not so much. Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what? He betrays them. Har har.

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer. It's wrecking the brand. Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back. Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

The Black Library is just sad right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!", several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time. Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax. Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right? Jesus H. Christ. It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters. Maybe that's GW's new plan. Write everything at a 6th grade reading level. Profit.

It's just aggravating. In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more. As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

---------------------------

witchunter kraine, on 16 Nov 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

Hey, I get it. Fanboys are gonna fanboy.

I love the Warhammer 40k universe. I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now. I don't think I was that harsh on them.

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content. The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories. They're just a couple of pages long.

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting. Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback. And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right? I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.

Meh. I'll be honest. I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world. THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine. Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games. They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have? :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really? I haven't seen that. Is it somewhere on the BL site?

----------------------------

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, The Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our Hour of Need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite?

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

-----------------------------

Inquisitor Quidam, on 29 Nov 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it. Sheesh.

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices. I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does? Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby. Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while. Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me. As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper. Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers. That has happened almost everywhere else in book land. Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things. I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

-----------------------

facmanpob, on 11 Dec 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

wtwhizz, on 03 Dec 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

You are so right, dude. Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve. I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again? Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint? That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it? I thought it was always the other way around. The customer is always right. If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff. You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth. This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it! it sucks! you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

My electricity bills are sky high, too. I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point. I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market.

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff? They'd just shutter the BL. Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels. And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game. It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States. Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC. What happened? The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

-----------------------

So, basically, everything Laurie said was happening, I pointed out all that time ago.

1. The company shifted to crapping out quantity instead of quality.

2. To achieve this goal they hired a bunch of no-name writers and started paying their good writers less.

3. Novel numbers did drop. Laurie says ONE HH book in 2015.

4. Since they really only cared about the bottom line, the customer was getting gouged.

5. You hand waved it all away as "it's great stuff and people love it!"

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached.

You know, a simple link works, too. My God.

The man made a point...multiple points. I'm glad he organized and re-posted here for my reading amusement.

Late 2013 to early 2016 was a generally terrible time at BL and he saw it early. Props to him for calling it then and not being cowed by the collective belittling of his opinion

Yes and no. In amidst the lies ("chastised" by me? From that post he quoted? Really? Carrying water for the company? ...me??) there's overlap but not exact correlation.

1. I know for a fact HH novels were down that year because some of us didn't hand in our stuff, for example, and there was a scheduling crisis because of it. Not because of eeeevil scheeeemes. This was before almost every single one of the changes Laurie talked about. Christ, some of the changes were caused by the issues we were making with GW and the BL schedule. There's a lot Laurie didn't mention.

2. And the short story / novella / tie-in kick literally hadn't begun then, and none of us were being asked to produce more of those at the time. They weren't replacing novels in our schedules, as I explained. I know, since... well, I was there. That didn't even start until 2014 in any real way, and was only in full flow for 2015 and 2016.

So, who should I believe, here? What actually happened, or someone trying to score points on a forum? See how important context is?

He's saying "X happened". X did indeed happen, but he's describing Y, which was a prelude to X, and partially caused by Y. The changes Laurie is largely talking about have been discussed to death because everyone noticed them, and no lone wolf genius visionaries were shot down.

[wtwhizz]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

Link for proof, please. Because:

• I don't believe you.
• Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
• I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
• However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise.

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all.

Context.

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

Hah! Glad to see you're still in fine form ADB. And since you want proof? Well. . .here we go. Read 'em and weep!

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly. They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books. As in books based post-Heresy. Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others. However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore. It's all short story BS. So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story. A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

Secondly, they started switching to audio books. Um, I like, ya know, reading. Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories. Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story. A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all. It's essentially a voiced over short story. For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl. Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right? Yeah, not so much. Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what? He betrays them. Har har.

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer. It's wrecking the brand. Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back. Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

The Black Library is just sad right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!", several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time. Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax. Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right? Jesus H. Christ. It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters. Maybe that's GW's new plan. Write everything at a 6th grade reading level. Profit.

It's just aggravating. In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more. As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

---------------------------

witchunter kraine, on 16 Nov 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

Hey, I get it. Fanboys are gonna fanboy.

I love the Warhammer 40k universe. I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now. I don't think I was that harsh on them.

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content. The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories. They're just a couple of pages long.

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting. Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback. And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right? I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.

Meh. I'll be honest. I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world. THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine. Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games. They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have? :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really? I haven't seen that. Is it somewhere on the BL site?

----------------------------

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, The Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our Hour of Need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite?

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

-----------------------------

Inquisitor Quidam, on 29 Nov 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it. Sheesh.

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices. I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does? Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby. Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while. Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me. As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper. Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers. That has happened almost everywhere else in book land. Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things. I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

-----------------------

facmanpob, on 11 Dec 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

wtwhizz, on 03 Dec 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

You are so right, dude. Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve. I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again? Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint? That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it? I thought it was always the other way around. The customer is always right. If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff. You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth. This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it! it sucks! you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

My electricity bills are sky high, too. I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point. I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market.

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff? They'd just shutter the BL. Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels. And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game. It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States. Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC. What happened? The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

-----------------------

So, basically, everything Laurie said was happening, I pointed out all that time ago.

1. The company shifted to crapping out quantity instead of quality.

2. To achieve this goal they hired a bunch of no-name writers and started paying their good writers less.

3. Novel numbers did drop. Laurie says ONE HH book in 2015.

4. Since they really only cared about the bottom line, the customer was getting gouged.

5. You hand waved it all away as "it's great stuff and people love it!"

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached.

You know, a simple link works, too. My God.

The man made a point...multiple points. I'm glad he organized and re-posted here for my reading amusement.

Late 2013 to early 2016 was a generally terrible time at BL and he saw it early. Props to him for calling it then and not being cowed by the collective belittling of his opinion

Yes and no. In amidst the lies ("chastised" by me? From that post he quoted? Really? Carrying water for the company? ...me??) there's overlap but not exact correlation.

1. I know for a fact HH novels were down that year because some of us didn't hand in our stuff, for example, and there was a scheduling crisis because of it. Not because of eeeevil scheeeemes. This was before almost every single one of the changes Laurie talked about. Christ, some of the changes were caused by the issues we were making with GW and the BL schedule. There's a lot Laurie didn't mention.

2. And the short story / novella / tie-in kick literally hadn't begun then, and none of us were being asked to produce more of those at the time. They weren't replacing novels in our schedules, as I explained. I know, since... well, I was there. That didn't even start until 2014 in any real way, and was only in full flow for 2015 and 2016.

So, who should I believe, here? What actually happened, or someone trying to score points on a forum? See how important context is?

He's saying "X happened". X did indeed happen, but he's describing Y, which was a prelude to X, and partially caused by Y. The changes Laurie is largely talking about have been discussed to death because everyone noticed them, and no lone wolf genius visionaries were shot down.

I understand you make your living off this silly hobby, but you need to learn to have some fun.

In your quest to be all super serial and whatnot and prove yourself inarguably right, you've completely missed that I was just having fun and making some salient points at the same time. I mean, you're THAT upset over the carrying water line? Sounds like I hit a nerve somewhere I wasn't even trying to hit. <------------DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO HERE?!?!

I recognized the wave was coming long before everyone else. Laurie's post talks about 2015, but the whole mess started long before that. When I made those posts. Posts in which I made some fair points. BL's stuff was getting watered down, it was overpriced, and the real quality stuff was starting to dry up. Can anyone really dispute those points? Nope. I'm kinda like those guys from The Big Short. Unfortunately I didn't make billions of dollars. I just scored an awesome level of internet vindication and forced one of the best BL writers to bow down to my superiority.

I know it'll be tough to ship my Golden Throne from Ireland to America, but I know you industrious folks can get it done. Make sure it's polished to a high sheen.

[mc warhammer]

Yeah, I remember calling this YEARS ago on this forum. I said the quality of the Black Library was taking a long walk off a short pier because of its switch to poorly done audio books, legions of overpriced short stories, an unrelenting horde of reprints, and lack of real novels. I was roundly mocked and vilified. Even ADB chimed in, chastising me and doing a magnificent job of carrying water for the company.

Link for proof, please. Because:

• I don't believe you.
• Context is important - indeed, context is everything. My reply could have been at any time, focused on any specific part of the changes; you're making a sweeping statement about something that covers a huge area of stuff. You might have said it at a certain time you're now attributing to this period, f'rex, and I corrected you. Or a certain few releases. Or lumping every author's releases into the new system when several of us were immune to it. Etc. etc. Context, please. You can see why it matters.
• I never, ever "carry water for the company" (this is something you're going to try and pin on the one BL freelancer who is habitually and methodically pulled up and lectured for what he says about the company on forums? Really?), and the fact you'd describe my posting as that lends credence to the fact you're either lying or misunderstanding the situation.
• However bad it was for readers, it was three times worse for the authors, and if you think I'd defend that, then you're insane. It was all I could do in the worst 12 months not to freak out and quit - and I was barely personally affected, project-wise.

What seems likely is that you did that weird thing where some folks accuse shorts, audios, and novellas as replacing novels. And people were doing that when those things ramped up (not replaced) novels. I realise Laurie explained a particularly dark period, but it was a moment in time that people are now applying to sweeping generalisations. As crappy as it was, shorts and audios and novellas were hugely popular and on the rise before this period, and in no way were all of us bound to do them instead of novels. Not at all.

Context.

EDIT: Another reason your post is kinda out of whack is that when this was actually happening, there was no lone wolf renegade visionary telling the dark truth in the face of overwhelming shilling defiance. Because, when it was actually happening, everyone commented on it and noticed it happening. Talk of the release schedule's changes were anything but rare. It was no secret at all.

So, y'know, your post is nonsense.

Hah! Glad to see you're still in fine form ADB. And since you want proof? Well. . .here we go. Read 'em and weep!

Yeah, there's been something wrong with the BL for awhile now.

I don't know whether it's the worldwide economic downturn, GW being a bunch of a$$holes, or what, but the quality at the BL has dropped significantly. They've also picked up a bunch of terrible business practices (for the consumer anyway).

The BL has always been rather "meh" when it came to up-to-date 40k books. As in books based post-Heresy. Yeah, there were some great ones like Abnett's work with the Ghosts, McNeill's work with Uriel Ventries/Honsou, and others. However, a lot of the books were just throwaway nonsense.

Now, however, we don't even really get full novels anymore. It's all short story BS. So, the BL wants you to pay $2-$3 a pop for 2-3 pages worth of a short story. A normal 300+ page book goes for $7-$10, but this short story which is not even five pages is only half that in price?

Secondly, they started switching to audio books. Um, I like, ya know, reading. Dumbing down of today's youth and all that, but some of us still like to read our stories. Not have some bad voice actors tell us a story. A story, mind you, that is barely any length at all. It's essentially a voiced over short story. For example, I bought Chosen of Khorne just to give it a whirl. Khârn, his fellow World Eaters. . .sounds awesome right? Yeah, not so much. Thirty minutes of listening to some dude wreck the picture I had of Khârn's voice and the story being simple Khârn walks out and kills some dudes and guess what? He betrays them. Har har.

And this nonsense isn't just dicking over the consumer. It's wrecking the brand. Instead of us getting a full length, badass novel over Khârn, his motivations, how he fits into the bigger picture, etc. we get some short audio book which doesn't flesh the character or the world of the 41st millennium at all.

Of course, I could go over all of GW's other screw-ups that have held 40k back. Going all the way back to letting Blizzard walk away with their IP.....

The Black Library is just sad right now. Maybe 1 or 2 Heresy books a year and even a bunch of those are suffering from the typical GW "Drag this out as long as you can and give away nothing because we don't believe in actually revealing anything around here!", several audio books I'll never buy, and a metric F-ton of overpriced short stories which aren't worth our time. Throw in some badly written tripe in the updated 40k Universe and you spend the entire year wishing you could take a flamethrower to Abnett's and ADB's backside to make them write faster.

I was skeptical of doing it, but I decided what the hell, I'll throw down $13 freaking bucks on this new 40k book, Pandorax. Supposed to have Abaddon and Azrael, right? Jesus H. Christ. It was written so terribly I couldn't get past the first two chapters. Maybe that's GW's new plan. Write everything at a 6th grade reading level. Profit.

It's just aggravating. In the hands of a competent company 40k could be so much more. As it is, I think it's going to be slowly dying out.

---------------------------

witchunter kraine, on 16 Nov 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

What we have here is a perfect example of your personal opinion being applied as a crude broad brush stroke. You may not enjoy the Black library books but some of your accusations are a little confusing.

1.) "It's all short story BS". Incorrect. GW and BL have started moving into the digital market due to the boom in tablets and E readers. A lot of the new products reflect that, including offering many short stories as a cheap hit of entertainment. I must have missed the part where this affected the publishing and distribution of full length novels as to me it seems that the company is maintaining as regular a release schedule as any.

2.) "Switching to audio books". Good god man, you make it sound like as if they are doing nothing but audio books now. Much like the digital products. BL has branched out into audio stories as a way of widening the brand. Again, it doesn't effect the distribution of novels at all. The Khârn story you referred to was conceived and produced as an audio drama, it isn't like they sacrificed a novel to bring it to life.

3.) The Heresy is a tricky beast. On one hand, i agree with you that things are dragging on. However, you have to consider there is demand from the fan base that all the legions get their time in the sun. This is particularly important now Forge world is on the Heresy hype train. The novels are much more than just stories for some folks. They are fonts of inspiration for their army projects.

4.) I don't think Blizzard quite walked away with the IP. There is no legal grounds for GW to come down on them for Starcraft. Even if there are certain similarities, They have developed their own universe significantly enough that even were GW to take umbridge with an ancient case, it would be laughed out of court. Every GW worker i have spoken to about Blizzard actually enjoys their properties and acknowledges that the company went their own way with things. There is no fight there.

5.) Rose tinted spectacles my man. What is schlock for you is purely subjective. I have heard mostly negative reviews about Nick Kyme's Salamanders series and yet the books seem to have sold extremely well. It is licensed fiction at the heart of it. Sometimes people want nothing more than a cheap hit of entertainment that resonates with the certain faction in the game that they enjoy. It is fairly shallow yes but not everyone is looking for War and Peace in 40k.

The issue with quality is mostly down to the ability of the authors. It isn't a case of GW force feeding stories to the writers. Authors such as Dan Abnett and ADB out strip the work of people such as Ben Counter and Nick Kyme and some of the Black Library old guard like Graham Mcneil and Gav Thorpe can be inconsistent at times. It isn't a new development within the company, or a sign of degradation within the brand. Black Library deals with Licensed fiction within the settings of the games we enjoy. The stories exist to excite hobbyists and to sell products.

I started the hobby in 2003 and back then, Black Library offered a sparse amount of books, most of them far more shallow and throwaway than the stuff we get today. The brand always has been a couple of excellent writers surrounded by a few mediocre to decent guys. Black Library is a much more integral part of the license today than it ever was, and is certainly putting a lot more effort into it's input than a decade ago.

Hey, I get it. Fanboys are gonna fanboy.

I love the Warhammer 40k universe. I have miniatures, I play the few video games that get made around it, and I have been reading books for the BL for ages now. I don't think I was that harsh on them.

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content. The audio books aren't that long (though I will admit to never having bought them other than the one I mentioned) and most of the short stories don't even deserve to be called short stories. They're just a couple of pages long.

One thing you didn't argue with was the cost of these things compared to how much you're getting. Hell, their ebooks are all more expensive than normal novels unless we're talking about hardback. And this "enhanced" ebook stuff is kind of silly right? I mean, I dropped $16 on Angel Exterminatus the enhanced ebook (because it was the only way you could get it as an ebook, IIRC) and it was just the book with a couple of pencil drawings thrown in.

Meh. I'll be honest. I've just been annoyed with how little attention Warhammer 40k gets in the wider media world. THQ goes belly up and we don't get sequels to Space Marine. Dark Millennium craps out and now we're going to be waiting until the end of 2015 for the same game from a game developer who has been focused on only making movie to game adaptations and kid games. They're making a freaking WOW movie, but there's literally no chance Warhammer 40k is ever going to make it to the big screen.

I NEED the Black Library to keep pumping out awesome content, because otherwise what do I have? :crysintoMarkVhelmet:

And for the person who said the audio books get put into printed editions. . .really? I haven't seen that. Is it somewhere on the BL site?

----------------------------

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 3:19 PM, said:

A D-B, on 16 Nov 2013 - 15:25, said:

Quote

Quote

Yes, a lot of their content has gone towards short stories and audio books. Less novels are being released. That's fact. Now, you might like the audio books, and that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's really just less content.

I get what you're trying to say, dude, but the problem here is that what WHK is saying is the actual truth, and what you're saying are your preferences, taken as fact. The fact you'd consider his well-realised and detailed explanation of the situation as "fanboys are gonna fanboy" is pretty tawdry, and beneath a decent level of discussion. (Insert "Tsk!" here.)

But WHK is right: there's no slowing down in novel releases - there are just more releases in other formats as well. There are more writers than ever (significantly more...) producing much, much more content. That's the fact. Novels aren't slowed down because people are doing other things. There's not a stringent production space that can only handle X number of releases and for every audio drama and short story, you've got a novel going unwritten. The novels are still getting written; more than ever, in fact. And some writers aren't novelists, or are naturally better at (or just prefer) writing in those other formats. That's where their interests lie.

And as for prices, all I can comment on there is that in terms of regular hardbacks, trade paperbacks, and mass-market paperbacks (released in hardcopy or eBook) their prices may look insane compared to discount retailers, but in terms of the actual book trade / bookstores / traditional publishing, their prices are pretty much in-line with the industry standard. If you're objecting to a collectors/premier format (as you were) that's one thing, but you can't compare that to traditional book/eBook pricing, as that's a false comparison. The non-collectors/premier versions exist, priced mostly in line with other books.

So I wouldn't worry too much, Whizz. If you want the novels, they're not going anywhere. Quality will vary in any demographic, and with more and more writers the quality will spike and dip depending on author talent and reader taste, but it's not indicative of a wider trend in BL's production.

Hope this was at least slightly reassuring.

Ave Deus Mechanicus! ADB is scolding me! Should I run and hide or take it like a man? Gah! To the warp with it, I'll give it a go. (My brother who is also a big War40k fan says I should tell you hey, who do you think you are? Dan Abnett? I chortled.)

My fanboys are gonna fanboy comment was meant sarcastically because of his tone, which was quite rude. Notice I didn't come back and lay into him and go all CAPSLOCKFURY. I just find it amusing that on an online forum some people's opinions are just "crude brush strokes" of opinions while other people's opinions are Imperial fething Truth.

If we're gonna start epeening and taking one persons opinions over another, I've been reading BL books since before most of the folks here even heard of Warhammer 40k. Including you. I started out on Inferno issues and never looked back. I still look back fondly on the halcyon days of Ian Watson and the greatest ever Warhammer 40k writer, one Mr. Barrington J. Bayley and the Eye of Terror. (Seriously, no one has even come close to his depiction of Chaos, the Warp, The Eye, etc.; hell no one has really even tried) So I know a little bit about what the BL has been doing over its run so far. Unlike others here, I don't look down my nose at others' opinions while I stroke my neck beard because I feel I have more of a claim on whose opinions are worthwhile.

All of that being said, what were his points that were so earth shattering in their truth and refutation of my argument? He (and you) argue that the rate of novels hasn't decreased. I disagree. I'd love for someone to tally up the numbers so we could really get to the bottom of it, but that seems a stretch. He argues that the audio books are just a little side project and don't interfere with novels being written. Meh. That's debatable. What isn't debatable is that the audio books are priced like full novels yet are rather short. I will concede that if people are fine with paying that, that's up to them. He argues that short stories aren't taking over BL's website. Honestly, this one is laughable. Come on guys. Come on. We're all fans here. We all want to see Warhammer 40k succeed. Let's be honest. This short story stuff has gotten out of hand. Especially at the prices they're going for. Games Workshop has always been known for a little (ok, a lot) of nickel and diming their fans, but it's gotten a bit ridiculous, right? The IP stuff with Blizzard is really neither here nor there in regards to the BL so no need to go down that road.

So really what happened was I stated an opinion and his response was "Nuh-uh! I'm right! You're wrong!" Then you take offense at a sarcastic remark and want to scold me for it and then go on to act like the stuff he said was beyond reproach? Oh boy. The Intertrons. Never a dull moment.

Anyhoo, let's go take a gander at the BL website. It's going to illuminate another problem I failed to mention in my original post. So, I've clicked on the BL main site and then I've clicked on Warhammer 40,000 along the top bar. It brings me to the main page of the Warhammer 40k stuff for sale (not Heresy mind you) and this is what I see:

- Three whole novels! Though one of them is a short story anthology only being released as an ebook. But hey, I like those, so points for BL. Though it's $13. I get inflation and everything, but by the Emperor's Balls, there's not even a real publishing cost associated with ebooks. There's absolutely no paper or ink involved. I used to be able to buy a novel that was made out of a murdered tree for 6-8 bucks. Now I don't even have to have a tree murdered to get my bolter porn fix and it's more expensive? I guess I still need this explained. Are electricity costs that expensive? Keeping the laptop powered is that much of a burden? Anyway, I digress. Onward!

- Ten short story ebooks Three dollars a pop. Oh Lordy. I remember the first one of these I actually tried out. It was written by Abnett. It was an Iron Snake out on a mission. He was kicking ass against a planet of orks all by his lonesome. I had some serious chub action going on. Then it ended after one page. I can't really remember much of what happened for the few minutes after that, but my computer was destroyed and my Dachshund was hiding in fear under the covers....

- Two audio books Actually this is surprising. I thought there was going to be more of these. Though, again, $17 for a standard one and $40 for one of Pandorax. Ho-lee high explosive rounds, Batman. Did the worldwide economic downturn just not hit Great Britain? Are you monocle wearing, cheerio greeting, tea sipping loons all living the high life?

And now we get to my previously forgotten point. . .

- Five re-releases of old books

So, as the BL has been doing for awhile now, they're trying to make their bones off of old content. I get wanting to have this material available for newer converts, but more and more it's seeming like it's just there to cover up their lack of exciting new content. Just my crude brush stroke of an opinion, mind you. I don't have access to the Fact Vault deep beneath Olympus Mons or anything, so be kind, please.

Now, if we scroll on over to Page 2 what do we find? 21, yes, 2-1 short story ebooks, one novel, and one re-lease as an Omnibus. God-Emperor preserve us in our Hour of Need...

In summary, I did rant a bit in my OP, but it was mainly at GW's sorry business practices which is a valid criticism I think almost everyone here would agree with. WHK annoyed me with his tone, but I let it go outside of one silly sarcastic remark which you then jumped on me for. Seemed a bit much IMH opinion, but hey, obviously that isn't worth much. Unless I turned it into an ebook, amirite?

I enjoy your work, sir, and my money helps keep your kids fed. Cut me some slack. I agree to disagree. No hard feelings to anyone involved either living or hanging out in Space Marine limbo waiting for Ze Final Battle! Please find Dan and feed him some steroids or something so I can get more GG novels. Please write more stuff on Khârn. You did a great job with him in Betrayer. Though the whole Erebus gets out of jail free card is annoying. So after you see Dan go see the high up mucky mucks at GW and tell them you're demanding to be able to seriously and for reals this time guys kill off major characters in the canon. K? K. Hugs and kisses. Unless you're secretly a genestealer. Then maybe just a handshake with one of your lower arms. Oh, damn. Claws. Crap. Ya know? Let's nix the handshake, too. Maybe just send postcards to each other on the holidays or something. Cheers mate! (Or is that Australian? I always get them mixed up.)

-----------------------------

Inquisitor Quidam, on 29 Nov 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

According to the internet, there have been 27 novels and novel sized short story collections in the series so far. If you go by paperback or hardback release date, there were:

• 3 in 2006
• 3 in 2007
• 3 in 2008
• 2 in 2009
• 3 in 2010
• 3 in 2011
• 5 in 2012
• 5 in 2013 (so far.)

Make of that what you will.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

I had a nice rant and everyone had to go and try to spoil it. Sheesh.

Though really, I think a large portion of it was directed at GW's bad business practices. I think WHK and others latched onto the "less content" part because that was easier to argue against.

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You want to know why 40K doesn't get the same attention and followings that other stuff does? Well, part of it is that they're based out of the UK and not here in the States, but the main reason is because it's exorbitantly expensive to get into the hobby. Hell, I tried making a go at the tabletop game for a while. Couldn't convince many folks to shell out their good arms and legs to get the stuff needed to join me. As far as the BL goes, the invention of the ebook was supposed to make reading easier and cheaper. Less publishing costs, quicker publishing times, etc. which leads to better things for the customers. That has happened almost everywhere else in book land. Except GW/BL is using it as an excuse to put us all in the poor house.

I just hope ADB, Chris Wraight, and these other guys are getting an increased share of the profits off these things. I'd hate to think they're still being paid normal percentages when the BL doesn't even kill any trees to get their work out there and then on top of that they jack up the price.

-----------------------

facmanpob, on 11 Dec 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

wtwhizz, on 03 Dec 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Just as another example, the Scars short stories that have been released. I liked them a bunch. The Khan and his Scars finally get some love. I thought it was well written and interesting. I'm not a huge fan of "ZOMG! We have to have random Primarchs fight each other in these stories!" when it seems like they're just forcing it in there, which Mortarian v. Khan seemed like, but I digress. It was great. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Now, these stories were $3 a pop. There were 12 of them. I'm really bad at the maths and all that, but I'm pretty sure it comes out to $36, right? I'm not going to go back to my e-reader and do a page count, but I'll be generous and say it was essentially a full length novel. The BL even when they're gouging you on an "enhanced" ebook it's only $15.

You know that you don't HAVE to buy everything the moment it is released. You could easily wait for the Scars series to be released as a novel. BL has been releasing the Heresy series in hardback and enhanced ebook months before the normal ebook for a year now, and I've waited for the normal ebook each time. If you don't like their business practice then vote with your wallet and wait for the cheaper versions. Paying for each of the Scars serials and then complaining about the price is a bit ridiculous imo.

You are so right, dude. Heaven fething forbid I actually support 40k and hope the BL's business practices improve. I should just deny myself the pleasure of new 40k material and sit on my hands doing, wait, doing what again? Oh yeah, hoping their business practices improve.

Since when has this become the accepted viewpoint? That if you pay for something you have no right to complain about it? I thought it was always the other way around. The customer is always right. If you buy something, commit yourself to something, etc. you have the right to complain if it isn't up to snuff. You vote, you get to complain about the politicians, etc and so forth. This new nonsense of "hey, you bought it! it sucks! you deal with it!" is what is truly ridiculous.

My electricity bills are sky high, too. I don't cut it off and sit cold and blind in my house just to make a point. I angrily shake my fist at the energy provider and call my representative and try getting some legit competition back in the market.

Besides, what do you really think would happen if we all just stop buying overpriced BL stuff? They'd just shutter the BL. Poor ADB here would be forced to write Warcraft novels. And we'd all be out any decent 40k stuff except for the once in a blue moon video game. It's like this story I read on Monday from here in the States. Some workers were striking against the trendy deli-type shop where they worked in NYC. What happened? The shop fired them all by email and said they were going to close for a couple of months to do a remodel and update their menu.

-----------------------

So, basically, everything Laurie said was happening, I pointed out all that time ago.

1. The company shifted to crapping out quantity instead of quality.

2. To achieve this goal they hired a bunch of no-name writers and started paying their good writers less.

3. Novel numbers did drop. Laurie says ONE HH book in 2015.

4. Since they really only cared about the bottom line, the customer was getting gouged.

5. You hand waved it all away as "it's great stuff and people love it!"

I'll be patiently waiting for your apology. Please have it sent, in triplicate, thrice blessed by the loyal servants of the Omnissiah, with a case of the finest amasec and a crate of grox steaks attached.

You know, a simple link works, too. My God.

The man made a point...multiple points. I'm glad he organized and re-posted here for my reading amusement.

Late 2013 to early 2016 was a generally terrible time at BL and he saw it early. Props to him for calling it then and not being cowed by the collective belittling of his opinion

Yes and no. In amidst the lies ("chastised" by me? From that post he quoted? Really? Carrying water for the company? ...me??) there's overlap but not exact correlation.

1. I know for a fact HH novels were down that year because some of us didn't hand in our stuff, for example, and there was a scheduling crisis because of it. Not because of eeeevil scheeeemes. This was before almost every single one of the changes Laurie talked about. Christ, some of the changes were caused by the issues we were making with GW and the BL schedule. There's a lot Laurie didn't mention.

2. And the short story / novella / tie-in kick literally hadn't begun then, and none of us were being asked to produce more of those at the time. They weren't replacing novels in our schedules, as I explained. I know, since... well, I was there. That didn't even start until 2014 in any real way, and was only in full flow for 2015 and 2016.

So, who should I believe, here? What actually happened, or someone trying to score points on a forum? See how important context is?

He's saying "X happened". X did indeed happen, but he's describing Y, which was a prelude to X, and partially caused by Y. The changes Laurie is largely talking about have been discussed to death because everyone noticed them, and no lone wolf genius visionaries were shot down.

well, this isn't hard. an outsider with zero inside knowledge, no matter how perceptive he or she might be, will be almost pure speculation and more than likely wrong.

won't ever stop peeps though