Rangdan Xenocides: any info from Inferno?

[b1soul]

Rangda should prob focus on the Ist...but plenty of other legions do get involved.

[Carrick]

 

There's another thing in the VIth Legion section of Inferno mentioning that tons of Titan Legios, Knight Houses, Taghmatas and even Space Marine Legions were destroyed while the Rangdan Xenocides were ongoing. Note that wording, as it caps the timeline on the IInd and/or XIth Legions but doesn't strictly say they were destroyed in or by the Xenocides.

Very interesting titbit there, is there any more info on the legion losses in the Xenocides?

 

I can see Big E expunging all mention of a legion for simply failing, losing to the alien. To allow the memory of them to persist is to allow knowledge that the alien can be superior.

 

Best to wipe them out, and anyone that knows new what happened.

 

 

My reading of this in Inferno is that this has to be the fate of at least one of the missing legions and also why the Wolves take the title of executioners. It seems that the Xenos in the Rangdan Xenocides had the ability to control the minds of humans and it is not a huge jump to imagine that an entire legion might have been mind controlled before the threat was realised. Then the Dark Angels and the Wolves have to clean up the mess which involves putting down one of their brothers and his sons.

[Paradigm]

Based on what's told here, - and wasn't Dorn told to not dwell on the lost and the forgotten - these could fit the bill of the forgotten. Next question, was Lorgar spreading the word yet? As he seemed to take the loss of his brothers very hard.

[Skalpynock]

And the rumor about the XIII absorbing the Lost comes from the time where they became the largest legion, which is caused by the losses suffered after the Xenocides by the I...

[Reyner]

Forge World did say they were thinking of doing smaller Black Books for the Age of Darkness - the Xenocides would be a good fit for this :)

[Ficinus]

Interesting the Emps wasn't getting in, but it did say once he unleashed the Labyrinth of darkness something something (isn't that the David Bowie movie? :P), the Rangdan were less of a terror.

David Bowie is the Emperor confirmed.

[Reyner]

Interesting the Emps wasn't getting in, but it did say once he unleashed the Labyrinth of darkness something something (isn't that the David Bowie movie? ), the Rangdan were less of a terror.

David Bowie is the Emperor confirmed.

Now I have the Emperor and his Custodes singing Dace Magic Dance throwing Malcador around in my head, it's great.

"Smack that traitor, make him free!" or "You remind me of the babe, what babe the babe with the power what power? The power of chaos!"

[depthcharge12]

Interesting the Emps wasn't getting in, but it did say once he unleashed the Labyrinth of darkness something something (isn't that the David Bowie movie? ), the Rangdan were less of a terror.

David Bowie is the Emperor confirmed.

Now I have the Emperor and his Custodes singing Dace Magic Dance throwing Malcador around in my head, it's great.

"Smack that traitor, make him free!" or "You remind me of the babe, what babe the babe with the power what power? The power of chaos!"

"This is Malcador to ground control..."

[Paradigm]

The bit about the 13th absorbing the lost legions, is an in-universe dig. It's sour grapes, because the 17th had found themselves developing a bit of martial pride and second only to the 13th in size, so it was a throwaway comment not meant to be taken as a hint for the 2nd or 11th's fate.

They are semi-bitterly saying, "We should totes be the biggest, the thirteenth must have taken in the 2nd and 11th or they'd have never kept up."

That said, it lends credence the idea enough, that even though the 17th know it probably didn't happen they could spin it that way for their own amusement. Good catch. 

It really is funny how the universe takes on a life not-necessarily intended.

 

As for Bowie:

"Nothing's gonna touch you on this Golden Throne?"

[Kelborn]

If it is implied that at lost one or even both lost legions did participate, they would have to rewrite the GC timeline, correct?

 

The second lost Primarch was found long after Xangdan. Or am I wrong?

[Kol Saresk]

If it is implied that at lost one or even both lost legions did participate, they would have to rewrite the GC timeline, correct?

 

The second lost Primarch was found long after Xangdan. Or am I wrong?

Yes. The last two Primarchs to be found were Alpharius and one of the lost Primarchs apparently, contrary to what Deliverance Lost implies.

[Jareddm]

 

If it is implied that at lost one or even both lost legions did participate, they would have to rewrite the GC timeline, correct?

 

The second lost Primarch was found long after Xangdan. Or am I wrong?

Yes. The last two Primarchs to be found were Alpharius and one of the lost Primarchs apparently, contrary to what Deliverance Lost implies.

 

As a note, Gav has said that's not what Deliverance Lost implies.  Only that there were two primarchs still to be found, not which ones.

[TURBULENCE]

Not to mention it's not like the legions didn't exist before their primarchs were rediscovered.

[Brother Aiwass]

Not to mention it's not like the legions didn't exist before their primarchs were rediscovered.

*Lost legions absorbed after Rangdan*

*Lost primarchs founded*

-"Sorry guys, you're not needed anymore" Says Emp

*BLAM*

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

If it is implied that at lost one or even both lost legions did participate, they would have to rewrite the GC timeline, correct?

 

The second lost Primarch was found long after Xangdan. Or am I wrong?

Yes. The last two Primarchs to be found were Alpharius and one of the lost Primarchs apparently, contrary to what Deliverance Lost implies.

 

As a note, Gav has said that's not what Deliverance Lost implies.  Only that there were two primarchs still to be found, not which ones.

 

Oh I'm fully aware of what Gav Thorpe and Laurie Goulding have said about what the novel is supposed to imply. According to them, the revision of the scene's implication is simply that two Primarchs haven't been found. I even remember discussing it with Laurie Goulding on the First Expedition.

 

I also know from not only my experience, but the experience of others I have talked to and have commented on the subject on both here and the First Expedition, that if you read Deliverance Lost without reading Gav Thorpe and Laurie Goulding's revision of that scene, the implication you receive is that the two lost primarchs were already "lost" by the time Corax was found. This is the specific implication that I was saying was being contradicted, not the revised supposition that was later tacked on, most likely to conform with the timeline Forgeworld published. Because it's easier to tell people they don't know how to read than it is to rewrite an entire scene. And cheaper.

 

I am also aware that it is the Forgeworld timeline that states that one of the Lost Primarchs was found after Corax, who was found after the Rangdan Genocides. Which is why I was saying "yes" to the question of the last primarch being found afterwards.

[TURBULENCE]

 

 

Not to mention it's not like the legions didn't exist before their primarchs were rediscovered.

*Lost legions absorbed after Rangdan*

*Lost primarchs founded*

-"Sorry guys, you're not needed anymore" Says Emp

*BLAM*

Having read master of mankind I wouldn't put that kind of callous act past the Emperor

[Kelborn]

Thanks, Kol.

Thought that I was mistaken as I was referring to Atias list.

 

Will wait until ny copy has arrived but for now and with the information I currently got, I assume that one Legion was lost during or because of the Rangdan campaign.

 

Enough knowledge to work with. Enough left for us to imagine the rest.

[Sandlemad]

Alrighty, my copy of Inferno showed up this evening (woop woop) so here's the relevant bit about the Rangdan xenocides from the SW's piece. No mention of legions here besides the SW and DA but looks like the idea that the Emperor's own intervention might have been necessary were on the ball.

 

'The turning point for the legion perhaps came during and after the Rangdan Xenocides of the 860s. At last the Expeditionary fleets had breached the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy and in doing so had attracted the attention of the Rangdan Cerabvores, a species of such macabre power and technologcial might it seemed, for a time at least, that the Imperium had met its doom. Facing waves of attackes from the galactic east and north, and suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought.

 

Whole Expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan Legions were obliterated and by the end entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium. Much of what happened during this abyssal conflict is still locked under seal, but what can be said is that with the breaking of the Labyrinth of Night by the Emperor, the threat was at last stymied. What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory. It was then given to the Space Wolves of the VIth and the Dark Angels of the Ist - the latter who had suffered themselves so very dreadfully against the horror - to conduct these purges, these two Legions entrusted above all others to do what had to be done.

 

Horus and his Legion, who had been otherwise occupied in the ongoing wars in the galactic west, were now firmly in the ascendance in the eyes of the Great Crusade, and with him and those other Legions who retained their strength having not suffered at the Rangdan’s hands did the future of the next few decades of conquest and expansion now rest.'

 

There follows some text about how it was after this that Russ and the VIth legion started getting a bad reputation and the 'savage but noble' idea was pushed out by 'keeper of monsters'. The Dark Angels' reputation also suffered after this, and they were apparently dogged with distrust. 

 

The SW's repuation definitely seemed to wax and wane.

 

- Pre-Russ: considered ill-disciplined and perhaps too in love with breaking their fleeing enemies (hence 'the Rout').

 

- Post-Russ: honoured, disciplined, Russ commanding forces of other legions, noteworthy record of victories but punishment of oath-breaker being considered 'excessive' in certain quarters.

 

- Post-Rangdan: dark reputation, distrusted, increasing note of their 'barbarism', growing isolation from other legions, more involvement in barely commemorated 'secret wars' (e.g putting down a "fourth stage Enslaver outbreak")

 

Looking forward to getting the dirt on what the Dark Angels had to have done (or were perceived to have done, a strong theme is the difference between the imperial court's perceptions and possible historical realities) to have earned some similar distrust.

[Kelborn]

So that does sound like both Legions were lost during or because of the Rangdan Xenocides.

 

That would mean that one Legion was erradicated before its Primarch was discovered leaving his fate open for suggestions. More questions than before. ^^

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the redacted bit cuts in at an important. It could very easily be something like "entire Space Marine Legions Chapters were lost". But constructed in a way that makes grammatical sense.

 

Point is, like a lot of forgeworld things, it's just enough that it could go either way. It could be when the Legions were lost, or it could be when many of the Legions suffered huge losses, thus explaining their having to build up state afterwards while the I and VI were simply those who got out the best and then got stuck up with the clean up duty because they had the numbers leftover.

 

And does it say cerabvores? I wonder if that's pseudo-writig for saying they were brain eaters. Something like those brain parasites from Star Trek The Next Generation. Might be why they had to bomb human worlds after the threat was destroyed, if I read correctly.

 

Just enough to be interesting, and just little enough to be frustrating. Good job Forgeworld.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

*snip*

 

- Post-Russ: honoured, disciplined, Russ commanding forces of other legions, noteworthy record of victories but punishment of oath-breaker being considered 'excessive' in certain quarters.

 

- Post-Rangdan: dark reputation, distrusted, increasing note of their 'barbarism', growing isolation from other legions, more involvement in barely commemorated 'secret wars' (e.g putting down a "fourth stage Enslaver outbreak")

 

Looking forward to getting the dirt on what the Dark Angels had to have done (or were perceived to have done, a strong theme is the difference between the imperial court's perceptions and possible historical realities) to have earned some similar distrust.

 

Huh, interesting - looks like we've now got all of the first 3 discovered Primarchs in a command role over other Legions.

 

I wonder if there's any reason that Ferrus was specifically described as commanding 'younger' Primarchs and their Legions, whilst Russ is only shown to have authority over the latter - he's interfered in conflicts between his brothers before, and the Night of the Wolf certainly shows he thinks he has a degree of authority among the Primarchs.

[Kol Saresk]

It might be Ferrus was the one actually given the role and the Russ was that annoying manager who keeps interfering with everyone else's department.

[Spaced Hulk]

And does it say cerabvores? I wonder if that's pseudo-writig for saying they were brain eaters. Something like those brain parasites from Star Trek The Next Generation. Might be why they had to bomb human worlds after the threat was destroyed, if I read correctly.

Cerabvores could imply 'brain-eaters', which is one of the characteristics of the Slaugth. I had been wondering if the references to the 'Rangdan Osseivores' and 'Cerabvores' might actually refer to the alien race that the 40K Imperium knows as the Slaugth.

Thanks everyone for all the information and discussion btw .

[Sandlemad]

*snip*

- Post-Russ: honoured, disciplined, Russ commanding forces of other legions, noteworthy record of victories but punishment of oath-breaker being considered 'excessive' in certain quarters.

- Post-Rangdan: dark reputation, distrusted, increasing note of their 'barbarism', growing isolation from other legions, more involvement in barely commemorated 'secret wars' (e.g putting down a "fourth stage Enslaver outbreak")

Looking forward to getting the dirt on what the Dark Angels had to have done (or were perceived to have done, a strong theme is the difference between the imperial court's perceptions and possible historical realities) to have earned some similar distrust.

Huh, interesting - looks like we've now got all of the first 3 discovered Primarchs in a command role over other Legions.

I wonder if there's any reason that Ferrus was specifically described as commanding 'younger' Primarchs and their Legions, whilst Russ is only shown to have authority over the latter - he's interfered in conflicts between his brothers before, and the Night of the Wolf certainly shows he thinks he has a degree of authority among the Primarchs.

Well, it says he had command in scores of campaigns over "numerous secondary war fleets, regiments of the Imperialis Auxilia and even on several occasions, other bodies of Space Marines whose Primarchs had not yet been found."

This is noted as after Manus, Fulgrim and Dorn had rejoined their legion so it doesn't seem to be shown as anything out of the ordinary (certainly not as much as Horus or Manus taking the second and third grand prongs of the crusade) but rather to show Russ was "far more than the savage semi-beasts some later portrayals make [him] out as".

I think how distinctive it is is mostly down to (a) Russ's stereotype and ( the fact that it was relatively early in the great crusade. Surely later on many primarchs commanded elements of other legions in grand campaigns? Thinking here of Horus ordering Eidolon around a bit at Murder or even Mortarion doing likewise during the heresy.

Russ and the VIth do seem to have received some different treatment throughout the crusade though, even though the term 'executioner' is only used later on as court scuttlebutt. It notes, for example, that the creation of the Fang was swift and allowed them a greater material self-sufficiency (munitions, gene-stuff) from the Sol system early on, something which most legions only developed about a century later as the crusade supply lines became stretched. It says this was down to both Russ and the Emperor's attention in terms of planning and resources. It's definitely a different path to Manus or Horus taking such high command.

EDIT: And yep, it says 'Cerbavores', not a typo. Does seem like the Slaugth or something similar.

[depthcharge12]

Huh I was actually (before this new fluff came out) going to write a piece about some Dark Angels that land on a human planet in front of the populace, and then at a mental command/override, the 1st legion systematically murders them. Thus harboring hate and mistrust toward the Imperium as a whole, or solidifying their connection to it as they alone knew the cost of it. The Rangdan Xenocides make for a good backdrop to such a scenario.