Returning player(5th ed) looking for advice/clerifications

[Ironstar512]

I plan on running an Ironhands CAD and a Blood Angels CAD together

 

     Is this allowed? (Ive heard that its okay, but I havent found an offical statement)

 

     What am I losing by doing this? (are my troops still Ob Sec?)

 

     Can an HQ IC from the BA CAD join my IH CAD tac squad?(Ive heard that its okay, but I havent found an offical        statement)

 

     Can that squad then ride in a BA CAD fast attack razorback? Can they start in it? (its not dedicated)

     

     I plan on having 3 groupings

           1)Ironclad Dreads w/ Ironstone tech-marine

           2)Baal Preds + Razorbacks w/ tech-marine on bike (can he even keep up?)

           3)Scouts

 

     Im mostly picking these because I think I can make the coolest models/conversions with them, but exactly how bad is this list going to be?

 

IH Tech Marine + harness + ironstone

IH Tech Marine + harness + bike

 

IH Ironclad dreadnaughts x4

IH Tac Squad x2

 

IH Scout bikes (3 dudes) x2

IH FA land speeder storm 

 

BA Sanguianry Priests x2

 

BA Scouts Bolters/shot guns

BA Scouts Snipers/cloaks

 

BA Razorbacks (flamers or H. bolters) x2

BA Baal Predators (assault cannons) x2

 

The list is sitting at 1750 with very little upgrades purchased. 

 

Do I have enough anti-flyers weapons? was just going to snap shot with the assault cannon preds, and my random heavy bolters.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ironstar512

[Quixus]

I plan on running an Ironhands CAD and a Blood Angels CAD together

Nothing wrong with that, but your post sounds a bit like rules fishing which is not allowed according to forum rules. so my answers might sound a bit vague.

 

Is this allowed? (Ive heard that its okay, but I havent found an offical statement)

Yes, see the Selecting Detachmnets section of the rulebook. It's in there black and white.

 

What am I losing by doing this? (are my troops still Ob Sec?)

Nothing.

 

Can an HQ IC from the BA CAD join my IH CAD tac squad?(Ive heard that its okay, but I havent found an offical        statement)

Yes.See the Battle Brothers section in the rulebook.

 

Can that squad then ride in a BA CAD fast attack razorback? Can they start in it? (its not dedicated)

The rulebook says yes, but the FAQ erroneously claims that the units cannot start embarked in the transport.

 

I plan on having 3 groupings

           1)Ironclad Dreads w/ Ironstone tech-marine

           2)Baal Preds + Razorbacks w/ tech-marine on bike (can he even keep up?)

           3)Scouts

 

     Im mostly picking these because I think I can make the coolest models/conversions with them, but exactly how bad is this list going to be?

I'm not sure what you mean by three groupings, I thought you wanted to do two CADs.  Dreadnoughts especially CC dreadnoughts need (Lucius pattern) drop pods.

 

IH Tech Marine + harness + ironstone

IH Tech Marine + harness + bike

 

IH Ironclad dreadnaughts x4

IH Tac Squad x2

 

IH Scout bikes (3 dudes) x2

IH FA land speeder storm 

 

BA Sanguianry Priests x2

 

BA Scouts Bolters/shot guns

BA Scouts Snipers/cloaks

 

BA Razorbacks (flamers or H. bolters) x2

BA Baal Predators (assault cannons) x2

 

The list is sitting at 1750 with very little upgrades purchased. 

 

Do I have enough anti-flyers weapons? was just going to snap shot with the assault cannon preds, and my random heavy bolters.

Are you putting the Sanguinary Priests with the Tac Squad? The IH Tacs already have FNP so that probably isn't worth it.

Unless you group the Ironclad dreads into two or three units you have four elites choices, that is one too many for a CAD.

 

Baal predators are considered a mediocre choice at the moment. you may consider taking regular BA predators instead. You can also make them fast for fewer points and they have an autocannon instead of TL Assault Cannons. I'm pretty sure for the price difference you could upgrade the razorbacks with assault cannons.

[Machine God]

Mixing Space Marine Chapters means that Neither has access to Chapter Tactics.

[Ironstar512]

Well thank you for your responses. 

 

Quixus

 

by groupings I mean ill be keeping those models in packs, in a way.

 

Thats to bad about the baal pred, it looks so cool...

 

Scion of Ferrus

 

Ive seen this much, but some of the space marines not in the codex do not have the rule 'chapter tactics'.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ironstar512

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Blood Angels don't have Chapter Tactics because they are in their own codex; only the C:SM Chapters have Chapter Tactics.  But by mixing Angels into the Iron Hands, you're denying the Iron Hands their Chapter Tactics (FNP, in this case, plus some other things).

[Ironstar512]

Deus Ex Ferrum

I was under the impression that chapter tactics was only lost if BOTH the IC and the unit had the rule "chapter tactics". Ill check the faq again.

 

The point there is to get a +4 FNP, as the IH chapter tactics says it will drop it by 1 if you already have it. If I recall correctly it even lists the item that is giving the FNP(+5) as something it stacks with.

 

Edit: yea it looks like i had it wrong. So all id be getting is FNP(5) rather than FNP(6) and a WS5 squad leader. I still like the idea, just not as good as id hope.

 

I dont see any "amoungst other things" that id be lossing though.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ironstar512

[Machine God]

The Blood Angels don't have Chapter Tactics because they are in their own codex; only the C:SM Chapters have Chapter Tactics.  But by mixing Angels into the Iron Hands, you're denying the Iron Hands their Chapter Tactics (FNP, in this case, plus some other things).

@Deus Ex Ferrum - Good advice.

 

Deus Ex Ferrum

I was under the impression that chapter tactics was only lost if BOTH the IC and the unit had the rule "chapter tactics". Ill check the faq again.

 

The point there is to get a +4 FNP, as the IH chapter tactics says it will drop it by 1 if you already have it. If I recall correctly it even lists the item that is giving the FNP(+5) as something it stacks with.

 

Edit: yea it looks like i had it wrong. So all id be getting is FNP(5) rather than FNP(6) and a WS5 squad leader. I still like the idea, just not as good as id hope.

 

I dont see any "amoungst other things" that id be lossing though.

@Ironstar512 - The 'Amongst other things' that DEF was going on about are It Will Not Die (IWND) for your Dreadnoughts. 

Not a good thing to lose.

[Ironstar512]

@Scion of Ferrus

 

Right, but the S.priest or anyother BA unit isnt joining a unit with that. Just the tacticles.

 

So, rule of cool i still think ill run it.

 

Any other holes in this list you guys can see? I played mostly in 4th edition and ive never faced a flyier, which im assuming you see in 1850 games. Will 4 TL assault cannons be enough?

Edited February 19, 2017 by Ironstar512

[Machine God]

Yes but by allying with the Mutant worshippers you curse the pure adherents of the Omnissiah with the blood/wings filth and thus Army Wide cannot access the righteous aspects of the Medusan Cult.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

According to the FAQs, if my memory is correct, the special rules Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels have as part of their Chapter count as "Chapter Tactics" for the purpose of unit mixing. A White Scar Captain in a Grey Hunter squad loses hit and run, and the Grey Hunters lose enhanced senses and counter-attack.

 

Given the range of models that Codex Space Marines have access to I can't see any point in mixing with other Chapters.

 

I don't think Inquisitorial models count though so Belisarius Crawl does seem like a natural fit in an Iron Hand army, and does provide access to yet another Eternal Warrior wargear item.

[Quixus]

@Ironstar512 - The 'Amongst other things' that DEF was going on about are It Will Not Die (IWND) for your Dreadnoughts. 

Not a good thing to lose.

Why would the dreadnoughts lose IWND? there is no non-IH unit that can join them.

[Machine God]

 

@Ironstar512 - The 'Amongst other things' that DEF was going on about are It Will Not Die (IWND) for your Dreadnoughts. 

Not a good thing to lose.

Why would the dreadnoughts lose IWND? there is no non-IH unit that can join them.

 

@Quixus - The Dreadnoughts would lose IWND as that is an Iron Hands Chapter Tactic/Trait. Mix any other Space Marine Chapter (Blood Angels in this case) into the army and Neither gets their special abilities.

 

Edit: Spelling.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Scion of Ferrus

[Quixus]

 

 

@Ironstar512 - The 'Amongst other things' that DEF was going on about are It Will Not Die (IWND) for your Dreadnoughts. 

Not a good thing to lose.

Why would the dreadnoughts lose IWND? there is no non-IH unit that can join them.

 

@Quixus - The Dreadnoughts would lose IWND as that is an Iron Hands Chapter Tactic/Trait. Mix any other Space Marine Chapter (Blood Angels in this case) into the army and Neither gets their special abilities.

I know that's the case for ICs joining units, but where is the rule saying you can't have multiple detachments with different chapter tactics?

[Machine God]

 

 

 

@Ironstar512 - The 'Amongst other things' that DEF was going on about are It Will Not Die (IWND) for your Dreadnoughts. 

Not a good thing to lose.

Why would the dreadnoughts lose IWND? there is no non-IH unit that can join them.

 

@Quixus - The Dreadnoughts would lose IWND as that is an Iron Hands Chapter Tactic/Trait. Mix any other Space Marine Chapter (Blood Angels in this case) into the army and Neither gets their special abilities.

I know that's the case for ICs joining units, but where is the rule saying you can't have multiple detachments with different chapter tactics?

 

Sorry, it seems that I have misinterpreted the FAQ, so the Dreadnoughts are fine if they aren't joined by any Blood Angels.

 

It looks like the Blood Angels vehicles won't be getting any repairs from the Iron Hands Techmarines though, or does it?

 

Does a Iron Hands Techmarine carrying out a Blessing of the Omnissiah on a Blood Angels vehicle he is in base contact "Count as" joining the unit?

 

Edit: Question.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Scion of Ferrus

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well.  I was referring to IH characters losing IWND if they're in a mixed squad.  Since that's part and parcel what makes our multi-wound ICs so damnably hard to kill.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

As far as I can tell a techmarine should be able to repair a friendly tank. He's not "joining" anything so wouldn't lose any Chapter benefits.

[Ironstar512]

As for why im mixing IH and BA

Fast razorbacks

Baal predators(also fast)

To get FNP[+4] on my tact squads(its only gonna be [+5]

 

Fluff wise i dont understand why apoths arent more common in IH stuff. WHO is grafting these implants?!?

 

Im actually doing a DIY chapter called Krimson Kodiaks. Think cyborg were-bears. So models wise theyll all look like they are from the same chapter.

 

I heard you can get "fast" on vehicles with a Fist of Medusa Strike Force, but i think thats just PotMS giving a fast like effect. They didnt have these formation/detachment things back ehen i played, and i still dont exactly get it, so this is what ive got for now

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Fluff wise i dont understand why apoths arent more common in IH stuff. WHO is grafting these implants?!?

 

 

I heard you can get "fast" on vehicles with a Fist of Medusa Strike Force, but i think thats just PotMS giving a fast like effect. They didnt have these formation/detachment things back ehen i played, and i still dont exactly get it, so this is what ive got for now

 

1.  Most Apothecaries aren't assigned to Battle Companies.  They apparently stick to working in their Apothecarion, doing menial tasks like ensuring proper storage of gene-seed reserves and tending to the numerous ailments of the aspirants and neophytes (seriously, consider how many aspirants a Chapter must have at any given time to keep up their numbers).  As for one-per-company?  You can thank Guilliman for that.

 

2. I feel your pain (get it?) on that one.  I started in 3rd Edition and have played in every edition since, and I'm still not perfectly square on the whole detachment thing.  As for Fast vs. POTMS, you're correct: the Fist provides POTMS, not Fast.  Not even the Anvil Strike Force or Armored Task Force provide Fast.

[Machine God]

Fluff wise i dont understand why apoths arent more common in IH stuff. WHO is grafting these implants?!?

@Ironstar512 - The Iron-Fathers that's who!

[Vel'Cona]

The BRB is probably your best resource.  You can probably get a small-form copy aftermarket somewhere on the cheap if you just want the rules (and GW makes their own brand).  It reasonably clearly explains the way Detachments/Formations/Unbound is meant to work.  The most important thing to keep in mind is that Formations ARE Detachments, of a special kind and specific composition requirements.  Forget entirely about the old Force Organization Chart (it's dead); the CAD is similar but it's still a Detachment which means it's only one way of taking your army.  Other than special tournament setups (like ITC et al), there's no restrictions on how many detachments you can use, though you'll also need to consider Allies restrictions as far as shared buffs/joining units/etc. and that adds an entirely new layer to the complications.  IMO I'd worry about getting a few games in (probably 500-1000 points) first and really familiarizing yourself with the edition before you worry about complicated list builds, because a lot of the questions you're having will likely be answered in a few games at this level.

 

The most important thing to consider if you're coming fresh into 7th, is not to take anything for granted; I still mix up rulesets all the time and it costs me big on the tabletop, so it's best to come at this edition with an open mind and try the best you can to avoid preconceptions.

[Ironstar512]

Vel

"The most important thing to keep in mind is that Formations ARE Detachments"

"the CAD is similar but it's still a Detachment"

-Thank you!!

 

I got so used to seeing it weitten CAD i forgot what the D was for.

 

I have the small rule book that came with killteam, just trying to dive in all over the place. The lists are fun and exciting, the rules are less so.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Ironstar512

[Vel'Cona]

The only other caution I'd have (which you seem to be aware of) is the edition swap is pretty near on the horizon.  That being said, it's been rumoured to be an "update" more than a "replacement" ruleset, so with that in mind learning the current edition should still serve you well for the foreseeable future.  It also means you can be reasonably assured purchases you make now will still be useful when the new edition comes!  :D

[Ironstar512]

Thank you all for your time and input.

 

I got some of my orders in and shall begin converting soon. Going for a true scale + "leave no model unconverted" army.

 

My orks and necrons are 8/10 and i speed painted them. Going to be painting 1 model at a time this time. So look forward to some pretty progress updates soon.

[Ironstar512]

Just wanted to post these here real quick so you folks could see what ive been up to. I'm going to put them in their own WIP topic too.

 

 

[Vel'Cona]

Off to a great start!  Will you be going for a "standard" Iron Hands scheme or homebrewing your own chapter?