Legio Custodes Weaknesses?

[Laughingman]

Other strategies i've been musing:

 

A squad of Myrmidon Secutors with Irrad-cleansers or Myrmidon Destructors with Irradiation engines might be able to simply drown a squad of regular Custodians in poisoned 2+ templates and force enough 2+ saves they start rolling 1s.  More Useful in Zone Mortalis. 

 

If you can keep it alive a Malcador Infernus with Chem Munitions ( poisoned 2+, AP2, Armorbane, Hellstorm Torrent) has the potential to do lots of damage. If you allied with Mechanicum you can keep a squad of Myrmidon Destructors with Graviton imploder  and cyber ocularis nearby to discourage deep striking.

 

edit: Someone can correct me if I am wrong (I don't have the book on hand) can Engineer Auxilia take augury scanners? If so you could give his Servo-automata special weapons ( maybe plasma or multi-meltas) and create a bubble around said Malcador Infernus.  

[Brother Aiwass]

The Malcador is a good idea, you can bubble wrap it with plasma support squads with attached medic with augur.

[Laughingman]

The Malcador is a good idea, you can bubble wrap it with plasma support squads with attached medic with augur.

 

 

 

Is the idea to bring Auxilia allies to a space marine force, or vice versa?

[Brother Aiwass]

SA allies to a primary SM force.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@darius they really don't have a lot of mass infantry removal from range. They have the d3 Las cannon and the calladius, neither of which removes swathes of guys. If they're pouring all their long range into your allied troop unit instead of the rest of the list, then they're misplaying. Anything else is within your threat range. Sure they get a lot of deployment options, but they're all used to close with your enemy because the army functions at close range. 

 

I'd suggest re-reading the Coronus rules, between Arachnus blaze cannon and lastrum bolt cannon (plus Machine Spirit and Fast Skimmer) they can pour out a tonne of firepower to obliterate chaff infantry. Also you have Aquilon Terminators with firepikes, and Sagittarum Guard (the latter isn't particularly good against Legion but they're perfectly fine as anti-infantry fire support). Pallas attack speeders also mount Arachnus blaze cannon. Custodies can obliterate infantry just fine. I'm not saying don't take Cultists/Tech-Thralls/Lasrifle Sections against them (they're still good as cheap scoring and to clog charge lanes en-masse), but don't assume Custodians can't kill them efficiently. 

A squad of Myrmidon Secutors with Irrad-cleansers or Myrmidon Destructors with Irradiation engines might be able to simply drown a squad of regular Custodians in poisoned 2+ templates and force enough 2+ saves they start rolling 1s.  More Useful in Zone Mortalis. 

 

They're in 2+ armour dude. You need to cause on average 12 wounds just to drop a normal Custodian, 36 to kill a Hetaeron Guard. It's extremely inefficient. Just take grav-imploders if you're a madman, or photon thruster if you wanna play it safe. 

If you can keep it alive a Malcador Infernus with Chem Munitions ( poisoned 2+, AP2, Armorbane, Hellstorm Torrent) has the potential to do lots of damage. If you allied with Mechanicum you can keep a squad of Myrmidon Destructors with Graviton imploder  and cyber ocularis nearby to discourage deep striking.

 

The major issue is the low model count and the 3" coherency. It's gonna really screw with your template math, even with Torrent placement. You'll probably still kill 1-2. SA probably don't have many better options besides implosion Cyclops I suppose. 

edit: Someone can correct me if I am wrong (I don't have the book on hand) can Engineer Auxilia take augury scanners? If so you could give his Servo-automata special weapons ( maybe plasma or multi-meltas) and create a bubble around said Malcador Infernus.  

 

Yeah they can but Tech-Auxilia are pretty trivial to remove for Custodes. They only get plasma-fusils (AP3 so pretty useless) in Solar Auxilia, normal plasma guns aren't an option in any three variant. In Mechanicum and Legion you can get multi-melta but they're only BS3. 

The Malcador is a good idea, you can bubble wrap it with plasma support squads with attached medic with augur.

 

I'd hesitate to put plasma squads on foot, they really want a Rhino to avoid getting torn to shreds by Custodian anti-infantry (which is all pretty much configured to kill Astartes). 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

I'd suggest re-reading the Coronus rules, between Arachnus blaze cannon and lastrum bolt cannon (plus Machine Spirit and Fast Skimmer) they can pour out a tonne of firepower to obliterate chaff infantry. Also you have Aquilon Terminators with firepikes, and Sagittarum Guard (the latter isn't particularly good against Legion but they're perfectly fine as anti-infantry fire support). Pallas attack speeders also mount Arachnus blaze cannon. Custodies can obliterate infantry just fine. I'm not saying don't take Cultists/Tech-Thralls/Lasrifle Sections against them (they're still good as cheap scoring and to clog charge lanes en-masse), but don't assume Custodians can't kill them efficiently. 

 

Blaze cannon is not great, won't even cut through carapace armour. The arc and height is terrible for the lastrum so there's a good chance for getting cover, or failing that, the coronus has to point towards your tech thralls and not face towards anti tank. Optimal positioning for a coronus will kill 4 thralls on average, or 2-3 dead depending on what kind of cover might be obscuring the underslung lastrum. If you focus fire a lot of them into a unit of thralls then you could do some respectable damage, but no where near "obliterate" level.

 

Terminators with fire pikes are extremely niche, and therefor very uncommon in a list. Ignoring that, they still share the same short range problem as all the custodes infantry. The flamers don't even pierce carapace, weakening their effectiveness against bubble wrapping thralls. They have the highest potential for damage for sure, but to get in range to deal it will necessitate being in range to get imploded. 

 

A squad of 3 sagittarum will kill 4 thralls on average, without cover. The heavy part is just a deal breaker; you have to set them up with a clear firing lane, ignoring cover just to kill a few guys, and then you're completely out of range for the part of the gun that's actually way more useful in most situations.

 

Pallas are terrible. You kill 1.5 per volley.

 

So basically the best case scenario has you kill 4 thralls per unit shooting, meaning you need 5 of those units shooting a block of 20 thralls (out of cover) to kill it. I'm not sure about you, but that doesn't meet my requirements for "obliterating" or "efficient" firepower, not when the minimum you spend for those 5 units 675 and you're trying to kill 125 worth of one unit.    

[Laughingman]

My understanding is you cannot take a Custodes Tribune in a game under 2000 points. is this true? If so isn't the simple way at avoid him  to insist upon games under 2000 points? (or just don't play power-gamer type people who will insist on building the "tank-tribune"). 

 

If you are playing in something like zone mortalis you could at least tie the tribune up for several turns with anarcharis scoria and a entourage of battle automata.

[lanceqi]

So things are getting weirder back home guys. In my hobby group the overwhelming majority opinion on the Custodes are " they are extremely underpowered and overcosted".

Last night my buddy had a 2500 game with a newbie legion astartes player. He got a tankibune, three Pallas, one grav tank, a grav carrier, two dreads(one with spears and the other with sword/shield combo) as well as two 5 men sentinel squads.

The other guy got a pair of ten men Tactical, one praetor on foot, a Vindicators, two squads of 5 Tactical support marine with plasma, one dread claw and a storm eagle. Long story short, my friend got almost tabled on round 2 and he called it. According to the victim last night, his opponent just move and shot and there was nothing much left on the table for him at the beginning of the second round.(the LA player didn't even choose the Legion nor RoW so...)

And this tragedy makes me rethink about the very meaning of this whole topic...

[Fallen11]

I think we need petition for FW to buff custodes, xD. Everything needs to get cheaper and stronger,xD

[Rangaman]

So things are getting weirder back home guys. In my hobby group the overwhelming majority opinion on the Custodes are " they are extremely underpowered and overcosted".

Last night my buddy had a 2500 game with a newbie legion astartes player. He got a tankibune, three Pallas, one grav tank, a grav carrier, two dreads(one with spears and the other with sword/shield combo) as well as two 5 men sentinel squads.

The other guy got a pair of ten men Tactical, one praetor on foot, a Vindicators, two squads of 5 Tactical support marine with plasma, one dread claw and a storm eagle. Long story short, my friend got almost tabled on round 2 and he called it. According to the victim last night, his opponent just move and shot and there was nothing much left on the table for him at the beginning of the second round.(the LA player didn't even choose the Legion nor RoW so...)

And this tragedy makes me rethink about the very meaning of this whole topic...

Maybe the Legion player had really, REALLY hot dice?

 

But seriously I don't understand how a Custodes army, which in this situation has almost equal numbers as the Legion army, got shot up so bad that by the start of turn two he has almost been tabled.

[lanceqi]

Actually on second thought, he might've been cheated since one vindi obviously cannot blow custodes plus Tribune off the table while 20 tacs plus 10 plasma special weapon guys just killed the rest of them. Let's not forget the pod and the plane haven't even showed up yet. That's just not logical.

Maybe he just got too frustrated and forgot many crucial details. Which, in my opinion, were the real reasons that he had lost the game. But right now it might not be the right time to ask for more since he is a little bit pissed lol.

I will most certainly do a follow up post and we will see then. His failure might provide some useful information. :P

[Withershadow]

Hmm, this whole story is suspect. I expect none of it ever happened.

[lanceqi]

Hmm, this whole story is suspect. I expect none of it ever happened.

I don't know really. This guy is selling his Custodes things right now. I mean, a tragic failure won't help on his marketing right?

[Withershadow]

That makes it even less believable. So the guy bought and built all these expensive resin models, played one game supposedly, and now is so enraged he refuses to talk about it and wants to sell the models?

 

I call bull crap on the whole tale. But hey, link me to his sales post, I'll gladly take them off his hands.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Then you underestimate how stupidly compulsive some people are lol. I've seen this before.

[lanceqi]

That makes it even less believable. So the guy bought and built all these expensive resin models, played one game supposedly, and now is so enraged he refuses to talk about it and wants to sell the models?

 

I call bull crap on the whole tale. But hey, link me to his sales post, I'll gladly take them off his hands.

Hey don't do that. I want to buy them too.

:P

[Fallen11]

Why people want to buy ,under powered :cussy army that gets tabled on turn 2?

[Raktra]

Because winning isn't everything, despite what crappy attitudes may try and profess?

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Deleted, off topic.

[lanceqi]

Got a little chat with him last night and found some details:

1. He placed two dreads on the OPEN FIELD knowing his opponent brought one melta tactical support squads in the dread pod and the other in the storm eagle. Pretty suicidal.

2. Still not sure why he got both grav tank and carrier blown up but probably the same problem with the dreads.

3. Got all the Custodes squads stand closely to each other and yeah the Vindi had a good time.

4. He didn't upgrade the Grav tank main gun and fail to pen any vehicle. ( Might just be bad luck)

5. Pallas never arrived on turn 2.

So basically poor strategy and placing lead to the failure (and possibly bad luck?). To sum up, just another example to show the importance to know our strengths and weaknesses and don't ever underestimate any opponent. Although it is a shame that both dreads cannot buy AC for extra protection.

Stop eBaying his Custodes things XD I called dibs XD

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

At least Custodes players are not nagging for more buffs.

[Withershadow]

I still don't see how he was tabled by turn two, and in your original retelling the support squads had plasma guns. Again I call BS on this whole story. Even with the aforementioned idiotic placement and positioning, and super hot dice from the opponent, there is simply not enough firepower to table him that quickly.

[Gorgoff]

I still don't see how he was tabled by turn two, and in your original retelling the support squads had plasma guns. Again I call BS on this whole story. Even with the aforementioned idiotic placement and positioning, and super hot dice from the opponent, there is simply not enough firepower to table him that quickly.

Oh, he got "tabled".

Lost a couple of units and called the game and afterwards he cried a river about his "bad army", instead of looking for flaws in his own tactic. I know a couple of players who act like that.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Blaze cannon is not great, won't even cut through carapace armour. The arc and height is terrible for the lastrum so there's a good chance for getting cover, or failing that, the coronus has to point towards your tech thralls and not face towards anti tank. Optimal positioning for a coronus will kill 4 thralls on average, or 2-3 dead depending on what kind of cover might be obscuring the underslung lastrum. If you focus fire a lot of them into a unit of thralls then you could do some respectable damage, but no where near "obliterate" level.

 

Terminators with fire pikes are extremely niche, and therefor very uncommon in a list. Ignoring that, they still share the same short range problem as all the custodes infantry. The flamers don't even pierce carapace, weakening their effectiveness against bubble wrapping thralls. They have the highest potential for damage for sure, but to get in range to deal it will necessitate being in range to get imploded. 

 

A squad of 3 sagittarum will kill 4 thralls on average, without cover. The heavy part is just a deal breaker; you have to set them up with a clear firing lane, ignoring cover just to kill a few guys, and then you're completely out of range for the part of the gun that's actually way more useful in most situations.

 

Pallas are terrible. You kill 1.5 per volley.

 

So basically the best case scenario has you kill 4 thralls per unit shooting, meaning you need 5 of those units shooting a block of 20 thralls (out of cover) to kill it. I'm not sure about you, but that doesn't meet my requirements for "obliterating" or "efficient" firepower, not when the minimum you spend for those 5 units 675 and you're trying to kill 125 worth of one unit.   

 

It's all accurate and wounding on 2's is my point. My point is if they wanna blow holes in your bubble wrap they can, and they don't need to be eliminating entire squads at once. They're gonna have most like 3x Coronus and 2x Caladius in most lists unless they're going full Deepstrike. 

 

Aquilon Terminators with firepikes are more brought for killing Cultists, which is the other bubblewrap unit they have to contend with. They're still going to rip Tech-Thralls to shreds, Torrent gives them a lot of flexibility with placement, and in a Coronus they can get in range potentially Turn 1. Yeah but the likely scenario is they blow away the Thrall screen, then your Myrmidons get rekt either by all their Instant-Death triggering firepower or a charge (even with fists the Myrmidons will lose combat to 2-3 Custodians). 

 

I'm just pointing out that Pallas can contribute to the infantry clearing. I think players will likely opt for the devastator anyway, as its better for armour hunting. But Pallas are cheap and you're likely to see a couple in a typical Custodian list. 

 

Sagittarum I think were a missed opportunity. They really need Relentless. I think they'll get ignored in favour of Caladius. 

 

Seeing as a lot of the lastrum bolters and arachnus fire can't even scratch the paint on your Triaros, its not really wasted. They're clearing firing lanes and charge lanes to your Destructors, which they can outmanouvre anyway. 

So things are getting weirder back home guys. In my hobby group the overwhelming majority opinion on the Custodes are " they are extremely underpowered and overcosted".

Last night my buddy had a 2500 game with a newbie legion astartes player. He got a tankibune, three Pallas, one grav tank, a grav carrier, two dreads(one with spears and the other with sword/shield combo) as well as two 5 men sentinel squads.

The other guy got a pair of ten men Tactical, one praetor on foot, a Vindicators, two squads of 5 Tactical support marine with plasma, one dread claw and a storm eagle. Long story short, my friend got almost tabled on round 2 and he called it. According to the victim last night, his opponent just move and shot and there was nothing much left on the table for him at the beginning of the second round.(the LA player didn't even choose the Legion nor RoW so...)

And this tragedy makes me rethink about the very meaning of this whole topic... 

 

Yeah well they're not Tau. You need to have a strategy with Custodes. Legion can still dunk you with cheaper AP2 firepower and better tactics. 

Got a little chat with him last night and found some details:

1. He placed two dreads on the OPEN FIELD knowing his opponent brought one melta tactical support squads in the dread pod and the other in the storm eagle. Pretty suicidal.

2. Still not sure why he got both grav tank and carrier blown up but probably the same problem with the dreads.

3. Got all the Custodes squads stand closely to each other and yeah the Vindi had a good time.

4. He didn't upgrade the Grav tank main gun and fail to pen any vehicle. ( Might just be bad luck)

5. Pallas never arrived on turn 2.

So basically poor strategy and placing lead to the failure (and possibly bad luck?). To sum up, just another example to show the importance to know our strengths and weaknesses and don't ever underestimate any opponent. Although it is a shame that both dreads cannot buy AC for extra protection.

Stop eBaying his Custodes things XD I called dibs XD 

 

I actually don't think the Custodes Dreads are worth their points. They're very cool looking, but they're still only as hard to kill as a regular Contemptor at range (Galatus you just flank anyway so he can't claim shield re-roll). 

 

Maybe start them on table? Without a Comms Array I don't trust Reserve rolls, they have a distinct tendency to screw you at critical moments. 

 

It's still all seems a bit unbelievable. His opponent also had to get a Reserve roll for the Storm Eagle to come on, and that's Turn 2 at best. One melta support squad is only gonna kill one Dread, how did they not die to return fire? 

 

If he's not abusing the 3" coherency he needs to get a different army. That's half the point of their infantry, you can spread out a lot more than is normal, and their base sizes means you nuke one per turn at best. 

[NoLifeKing]

Why people want to buy ,under powered :cussy army that gets tabled on turn 2?

Im sorry to say, that i don't think that there are underpowered armies in 30k.