DA Successors: Where do all those Terminators come from?

[Welcheren]

Apologies if this is wrong forum. I have looked around and failed to find a more suitable place, so here goes.

 

Just a drop of context for my question. So far, I have just over three years of loyalty to the Novamarines under my belt.

 

Recently, I have finally begun to pay a little more attention to the denizens of the Rock, having read Guy Thorpe's Ravenwing and Chris Dunn's Pandorax. I have also had my first real glimpse of the Lion in The Unremembered Empire (having scandalously skipped the early DA books).

 

The point I am trying to press is that I feel my heart strings shifting steadily.

 

Since the Guardians of the Covenant are particularly attractive to me, two fluff questions perennially prick my brain:

 

First, how do all post-Second Founding Successors manage to amass sufficient Termies for their equivalent of the Deathwing (which, presumably, includes a little more than the standard 100 brothers, since a few Deathwing Knight equivalents are also sneaked in).

 

Second, I assume that all Unforgiven chapters have to field a counts-as-Sammael on a normal bike, since only the real Dark Angels' Sammael rides the last jetbike in the Imperium?

[Iron Lord]

When Sammael's jet bike was introduced back in the 4E codex, the sidebar for his character entry says "Perhaps the Masters of 2nd Companies of other Unforgiven Chapters hold such wonders in their arsenals too"

 

So, you can point to that for justification that the "last ever jetbike" thing is metaphorical rather than real.

[Captain Semper]

Well, Welcheren, first of all, welcome to the Rock! :)

 

Now both your questions are valid. The first is relatively easy to address, as it all boils down to how many such suits did the First Legion possess to begin with. If you're comfortable with the answer "a vast amount" then problem solved. Truth is, the fluff always supported the notion that the First Legion had an immense amount of technologically advance equipment - even for items that other Legions would regard as rare... That is excuse enough not only for Termie armour but other exotic HH-era items (like Glaives and such).

 

If the Legion had substantially in excess of 100k Marines during the Heresy, then having say 10k suits of Terminator armour is not crazy for what was supposed to be a well equipped legion. Now given that the Successor Chapters are 1k strong and First Companies are 100 strong (OK maybe more but for the sake of calculations let's say 100) you understand that we are looking to fully equip the First Companies of 100 Successors! I think 100 Successors is too much even for the DA. Even 50 successors may be huge - but then think of how many spare suits of Termie armour there are...

 

Just to make it clear though, the above numbers are totally unofficial and personal estimates. I'm just trying to rationalize the abundance of Termie armours in the ranks of the Unforgiven with numbers that seem to me quite plausible. But I cannot back them up from the fluff and they are not in any way official. Just to be clear.

 

Which brings us to the second question - how to justify the existence of Sammael's unique Jetbike in every Successor's "Ravenwing" (I'm using the brackets because only the Dark Angels call their First and Second companies Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively)... There are some ways to rationalize this:

 

1. Sammael himself joined your army for a particular mission or campaign (in which case you may want to paint him black - in the Ravenwing colours :D)

2. There are more than one Corvex jetbikes in the Unforgiven arsenal (in which case you paint him in your preferred Succesor colours ;) ).

 

The fact that there may be more than one Corvex in the possession of the Unforgiven, is hinted in the previous Codex and the one before, as Iron Lord above suggests. The current Codex doesn't even go to the trouble to justify it - neither does it mention its uniqueness... It does mention though that it is a Relic from the bygone Age of Technology - making it rare on that account alone. The idea that it is the last Jetbike in the Imperium, although it was there in earlier fluff, it was consistently played down in the last three Codices...

 

Also, the rules do not provide for a normal bike for Sammael - only the Jetbike and Sableclaw versions.

[Major_Gilbear]

Also, the rules do not provide for a normal bike for Sammael - only the Jetbike and Sableclaw versions.

 

Although this is presumably because GW doesn't make an official model of him on a bike, I've always hated this.

 

I've also never really understood the logic of it either - we are allowed to have Captains in Terminator armour, but still have Belial anyway; why not the same with bike Captains?

 

I mean, since we're not allowed to have non-special character Captains on bikes rules-wise, being allowed to have Sammy on a regular bike instead (at the very least!) seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

Good points made on the amount of equipment the First have though; that was always how I saw it too. Additionally, despite certain (modern fluff) losses of significance, I also got the impression that the careful and precise execution of the planning that the DA were known for led to fewer losses than some other Legions, and in turn that would have meant that they perhaps didn't lose as much of the equipment that they had to begin with.

[Spyros]

For the first question, I always thought from what I read that Tactical Dreadnought Armour (and Dreadnoughts as well) is still being produced, it's a slow process these days but not everyone has lost the knowledge.

 

For the second, feel free to use any narrative excuse.

[Welcheren]

First, thank you everyone. I have been trawling through a thousand Google searches and have never located such a succinctly informative response as this. My inquiry into the rarity of special equipment for post-Second Founding DA successors has now been soundly satisfied.

 

Second, I am very happy to hear that Sammael's Corvus jetbike might not really be the last in the Imperium. Moreover, it makes so much sense that Sammeal himself might spearhead a search for the Fallen. In fact, I am stunned that this did not occur to me earlier. Thanks Captain Semper.

 

On that note, I appreciate the warm welcome.

 

 

 

 

I used to be leery of launching narrative excuses for minor deviations from established fluff... but that sounds like something I need to get over.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

I think I might be ready to change Primarch (I am woefully obsessive that way; even if I do end up with multiple armies, I feel compelled to show loyalty to one favourite).

[jlmb_123]

I've never assumed that Successor Chapters are equipped by their founders. When the Dark Angles Legion was reconstituted as separate Chapters, every Marine in the Legion would have been in one of them and if we work on the assumption that there was generally a ratio not much higher than one suit of armour for each soldier, then there'd not be enough spares to arm any further Chapters created from scratch. It's well documented that suits are handed down generation to generation with great reverence and ceremony, and even between Chapters, but this must only happen when the suits are spare and not destroyed. I've always thought that this reverence for their equipment is intended to make the Space Marines feel the weight of looking after their equipment for economic reasons dressed up as religious and traditional reasons. 

 

It must stand, then, that the Imperium still turns out Space Marine armour, including Terminator armour. The Dark Angels Codex makes the founding of Chapters sound a bit casual and fairly simple but in reality there'd need to be planning to provision and build equipment, armour, vehicles, spaceships, establish training to help the Chapter maintain it's own equipment, medical and reproductive systems after the initial founding, find serfs, bureaucrats, training staff, Imperial indoctrination staff, determine how the recruits would be ... recruited, and so on. If we take it as a given that a Space Marine Chapter first goes into the field at full strength, this would take a lot of planning and effort, and that's only what affects the Chapter itself. The Imperium also needs to make its own organisations aware of the Chapter so that they can incorporate their data identifiers, contact details, heraldry and so on into their databases to avoid confusion in the real world. The founding of a Chapter is like a proverbial swan which is graceful as it glides along whilst its little legs paddle like mad underneath the surface.

 

On the note about Deathwing Knights being an addition to the First Company numbers, I reckon that in non-First Founding DA Successor Chapters the Dark Angels get more involved than would be normal in the above exercises, and help them to found a group of Knights, but out of the initial 100 rather than in addition to. This is the same, I imagine, with the Ravenwing: in normal Chapters, up to twenty Marines per Battle Company can use/are equipped with bikes, plus up the full strength of the 8th Company. The Dark Angels probably suggest to the new Successor at some point that they make some changes to this organisation to reflect the Dark Angels' system of organising their Companies.

[Chaplain Raeven]

It's possible that the Rock has the means and resources to produce sets of armour. For a ship the size of a continent, I'm sure they'll find a spot for a factory. Even if the output is a mere 10 suits each year, the number of suits would be quite large after 10.000 years. 

[Brother dean]

D.  All of the above..   One of the stories I have heard, (that I cannot find again and which has been changed by the HH organization in the books) is that the 14th Assault Chapter* equipped entirely with Termie armor, was late coming out of the warp at Calaban and didnt get to drop before the planet went.

 

*Now of course we know that the Dark Angels do not use "Chapters" we use Orders and that "Angels of Calaban" shows terminators used in both the regular organization, exculsively in the Deathwing and *some* in the Dreadwing (Termie Devastator squads).

 

We were the Emperors personal army equipped by the Terrawatt Clan of Terra, we have lots of toys that the other legions didnt..  Like a Capital class ship with a rift cannon..  Go read "Angels of Calaban" and "Leman Russ the Wolf King"

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Related to the question of power armor, it has also been confirmed in fluff that Caliban had the industrial capabilities to create power armor at least up to MK IV in the Black Library book "Fallen Angels". In the book Zahariel comments that they had just finished training on a new reconnaissance chapter of Astartes all equipped in weaponry and armor made on Caliban. This is not unique to the Dark Angels, as obviously the Iron Hands and the Salamanders had similar capabilities on their home planets, but if further illustrates that while we are not known as the technology focused Legion, we could certainly hold our own. How many of these foundries remain on the Rock, if any, is however unknown.

 

Based on the fact that the foundries on Caliban could produce MK IV power armor it isn't that insane an idea that they would also be able to produce Cataphractii and Indomitus pattern terminator armor as well. While they are more complex in construction due to their size and internal systems, they are less advanced as the MK IV power armor, so if you had tools that are sophisticated enough to do MK IV, you should be able to do them as well. This, however, is pure speculation on my part.

[Major_Gilbear]

Another thing to keep in mind regarding Sammael:

 

The self-titled "Unforgiven" doesn't simply refer to DA and their successors, but rather to the DA and specific successors. Those who know of the DA's past and who participate in the hunt for the Fallen are those which are "Unforgiven", hence the name; there may be other successor chapters that use DA geneseed which are either not known the the DA, or which may be known but aren't in on the secret for some reason.

 

Because of the their participation in the hunt for the Fallen, the various Grand Masters of those chapter which comprise the Unforgiven all swear secret fealty to the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, and all of the Unforgiven coordinate closely with each other to further the hunt.

 

This has lead to Terra's authorities suspecting the DA of Legion-building (which is strictly forbidden), and has apparently contributed to various concerns that have resulted them in being extremely reluctant to approve DA genseed for the founding of new Chapters (although that's a rare enough thing to happen in the current 40k timeline anyway).

 

What all this means is that it's perfectly reasonable for Azrael, Belial, Sammael, and the DA Interrogator Chaplains to lead forces composed of mixed Unforgiven.

 

In fact, I have often suggested before that it's a great excuse to have different colours/schemes to paint, as well as providing the possibility of using Codex Space Marine "Allies" represented by one of the successors assisting the DA (who would be using the DA codex, naturally).

 

 

[Welcheren]

Another thing to keep in mind regarding Sammael:

 

The self-titled "Unforgiven" doesn't simply refer to DA and their successors, but rather to the DA and specific successors. Those who know of the DA's past and who participate in the hunt for the Fallen are those which are "Unforgiven", hence the name; there may be other successor chapters that use DA geneseed which are either not known the the DA, or which may be known but aren't in on the secret for some reason.

 

Because of the their participation in the hunt for the Fallen, the various Grand Masters of those chapter which comprise the Unforgiven all swear secret fealty to the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, and all of the Unforgiven coordinate closely with each other to further the hunt.

 

Excellent point. I have stumbled across this in my fluff searchers. For my immediate concerns - i.e. whether to join the ranks of the Unforgiven - it is worth noting that the Guardians of the Covenant are ranged among the Unforgiven, even though their founding date is uncertain. I find their chapter the most appealing.

 Go read "Angels of Calaban" and "Leman Russ the Wolf King"

 

Will do.

[Major_Gilbear]

For my immediate concerns - i.e. whether to join the ranks of the Unforgiven - it is worth noting that the Guardians of the Covenant are ranged among the Unforgiven, even though their founding date is uncertain. I find their chapter the most appealing.

 

Yes, they are indeed.

 

Of course, if you happen to invent your own successor, there is no reason they wouldn't be Unforgiven as well unless you wished otherwise. For example, the Angels of Absolution are still part of the Unforgiven and continue to assist in hunting the Fallen, even though do in fact consider themselves "forgiven" through the actions of their forebears on Caliban. :)

[Welcheren]

Traveling down the DIY route is not a bad idea. At this point, I gravitate towards an official chapter with sparse fluff/lore.

 

But please continue the discussion. I'm sure there is much more for me to learn.

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, there are also plenty of chapters that are suspected of being DA, but about which so little is really known that nobody can confirm anything for certain - and perhaps not whether they are even DA! A good example of such a chapter might be the Angels of Vigilance.

[Brother dean]

There are a great many (suspected to be as many as a third of all chapters) that use DA geneseed (most stable and least degraded) but do not know their provenance.  (but they play out of the plain Codex SM and do not get our specials.)

[jbaeza94]

One thing i like about DIY chapters is you make it your own. why does my "sammael" have a jet bike? well in my chapter, they were able to snatch one off a fallen, and it was claimed by the 2nd company captain. thats why its a scimitar bike and not corvex. having close ties to a forge world, they were able to reverse some of the tech, combine it with land speeder grav tech, and create 3 more bikes based around the standard bike, each with its own personality, traits, and reliability. none of these will probably ever be modeled, but i like the history to it.

 

As far as TDA, in the old, old fluff, Deathwing didnt always wear TDA, but sometimes wore PA. obviously thats not true any more, but you could make that work for your chapter. the first company could have, lets say 60 suits. Depending on the mission determines who gets PA or TDA. Maybe the PA deathwing be the vets who operate near the fallen to try to further minimize leakage of the secrets. why not have them be the newest members who have yet to earn their TDA.

 

I believe most Unforgiven would close to 1:1 suits to marine ratio, and a large part of them gifted to them by the parent chapter. keep in mind, creation of a chapter take a long time to happen, ive heard close to a century, so it gives the DA, or their preferred forge world to produce large amounts of suits alongside other normal gear.

 

just my 2 cents

[FerociousBeast]

40k canon has slipped over time. It used to be said that the technology to create terminator and dreadnought armor had been lost in time. That's 3rd edition fluff, though. With the kill counts from Black Library steadily mounting, I don't think we can consider that fluff to be in effect anymore.

 

I think we can assume that 2nd founding chapters can manufacture any kind of armor they want nowadays.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

It also used to be that the ancient marks (II - III) of power armor that were still in use were all artificer armor and were the most advanced ones around, made with the finest technology of a forgotten age. Now in the recent Unforgiven trilogy they need to make an ancient model of power armor for a character and they basically just ask the techmarines to make it and they do it relatively quickly. Now it is the Errant armor (mark VIII) that is the most advanced one that is only available in limited numbers.

[Chaplain Raeven]

I thought it was just too expensive/ intensive to keep the older suits operational. Just like the Germans over-engineered their tanks/weapons in WW2, and switched to simpler designs later on to keep up with the enemy. Using older marks as Artificer armour seems plaussible, since they are superior to recent marks, but they need a lot more maintenance.

[JJD]

This thread just makes more frustrated we don't have official acces to cataphracii armour.

[Welcheren]

Well, I'm sold. I think I have been for a long time now, without openly admitting it (GotC specifically).

 

I have been reading fluff until my eyes hurt. I am rereading Unremembered Empire and Ravenwing.

 

Think I'll start with a Dark Vengeance set.

[Irbis]

Well, there are also plenty of chapters that are suspected of being DA, but about which so little is really known that nobody can confirm anything for certain - and perhaps not whether they are even DA! A good example of such a chapter might be the Angels of Vigilance.

Or, you know, Astral Claws/Red Corsairs (Lugft Huron boys), seeing their chapter tactic put heavy focus on 'knight' squads on bikes, assault marines in both PA and TDA, plus their iconography full of lions. Then there is their legion building tendency and pure geneseed. I thought that inside joke by Forge World was kind of cool

[Chaplain Raeven]

Well, I'm sold. I think I have been for a long time now, without openly admitting it (GotC specifically).

 

I have been reading fluff until my eyes hurt. I am rereading Unremembered Empire and Ravenwing.

 

Think I'll start with a Dark Vengeance set.

 

Another brother joins us! Be sure to share your progress with your GotC. 

[Brother dean]

So it seems...  

Also brother it goes:

 

Unremembered Empire
Pharos (optional but good DA fatalism)

Angels of Calaban.