DA Successors: Where do all those Terminators come from?

[Knight Master Eladric]

I've also never really understood the logic of it either - we are allowed to have Captains in Terminator armour, but still have Belial anyway; why not the same with bike Captains?

 

Reaching back to answer this, the codex tells us that all the Captains (read Company Masters) are members of the Deathwing and can chose to lead their companies in their terminator armor or sometimes join their fellow Deathwing in the field. There is one biker company so ther is one biker master. The real question this brings up though is why doesn't Sammael have a profile for terminator armor, as he is Deathwing.

[jbaeza94]

 

I've also never really understood the logic of it either - we are allowed to have Captains in Terminator armour, but still have Belial anyway; why not the same with bike Captains?

Reaching back to answer this, the codex tells us that all the Captains (read Company Masters) are members of the Deathwing and can chose to lead their companies in their terminator armor or sometimes join their fellow Deathwing in the field. There is one biker company so ther is one biker master. The real question this brings up though is why doesn't Sammael have a profile for terminator armor, as he is Deathwing.

 

Fluff wise, because he never served in the Deathwing. He is an exemption. He was field promoted to Grand Master of the RW from being black knight. He may be Deathwing, but only in name, He never served in the first. Crunch wise, we already have a TDA grand master, Belial, and generic TDA master, no need for another. The only other i could see getting a TDA profile would be Azrael.

[Chaplain Raeven]

 

The only other i could see getting a TDA profile would be Azrael.

 

I wouldn't know why, he already has a 2+/5++ save. The only benefit would be relentless for his template plasma.

[Welcheren]

So it seems...  

 

Also brother it goes:

 

Unremembered Empire

Pharos (optional but good DA fatalism)

Angels of Calaban.

 

The conversation has turned into an interesting angle, and I do not want to detract from it at all. Just want to add that I will go back to Descent of Angels and work up from there to Pharos and Angels of Caliban (unless I am encouraged to leave Descent of Angels).

 

To be clear, my move towards the Lion is mainly an attraction to the fluff I have discovered. Of course, a change in Codex accompanies the choice, but I want to be clear that this is not simply a codex-inspired choice.

[Major_Gilbear]

I've also never really understood the logic of it either - we are allowed to have Captains in Terminator armour, but still have Belial anyway; why not the same with bike Captains?

Reaching back to answer this, the codex tells us that all the Captains (read Company Masters) are members of the Deathwing and can chose to lead their companies in their terminator armor or sometimes join their fellow Deathwing in the field. There is one biker company so ther is one biker master. The real question this brings up though is why doesn't Sammael have a profile for terminator armor, as he is Deathwing.

There is no reason that a RW member can't be promoted into the DW, and from there to Company Master. Even then, there is no reason that a Company Master can't ride a bike when Chaplains and Librarians can.

My suggestion that Sammael at least be allowed to ride a bike as an option is so that he can be a Company Master on a bike, albeit a named character one. For low-points games, or for those players who would like a successor Chapter to have a less ostentatious version of Sammy, this would be a very good and fluffy option.

That's the exact issue that I (and many other players) have with the way that the DA codex "forces" you to build not-DA without variation from their parent Chapter. Its a very minor but irritating sticking point, and is entirely a fluff thing rather than simply wanting a rules/equipment buff.

To be clear, my move towards the Lion is mainly an attraction to the fluff I have discovered. Of course, a change in Codex accompanies the choice, but I want to be clear that this is not simply a codex-inspired choice.

The best reason to collect any army IMO is because you like the fluff and/or models.

[Brother Korahael]

To add to it, my understanding is that the Unforgiven also have deep, unspoken ties to very high places within the Mechanicus ranks, which allows a relative abundance of material to be requisitioned to The Rock and all of our Unforgiven brothers across the Imperium.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

To further add to this, the newest FW fluff for Dark Angels highlights the fact that they also have some technology that comes from Terra, rather than from Mars. This is basically stuff that was lying around on Terra after the Old Night ended and was given to the Dark Angels by the Emperor before the Treaty of Mars was made. The stasis weaponry, for example, seems to be leftovers from these stores. We also know that the Glaive super-heavy tank was mostly used by the Dark Angels and the Salamanders. The Salamanders due to their own expertise and close ties to the Mechanicum and by DA because they are the first and stuff like the Glaive is just naturally well-represented among their armory.

[MoK]

I thought the DAs had they're own forge ship. I believe they have a Master of the Forge amongst the Inner Circle. Might be old fluff.

[jbaeza94]

I thought the DAs had they're own forge ship. I believe they have a Master of the Forge amongst the Inner Circle. Might be old fluff.

Master of the Forge ( aka Master of the Rock) is hooked up to the Rock. Im pretty sure he is the only Techmarine in the DA that knows of the Fallen, and may possibly know of the Lion, but only by virtue of being a part of the ship now. Techmarines are not allowed into the Inner Cirlce.

[Brother dean]

To add to it, my understanding is that the Unforgiven also have deep, unspoken ties to very high places within the Mechanicus ranks, which allows a relative abundance of material to be requisitioned to The Rock and all of our Unforgiven brothers across the Imperium.

Pretty much the opposite of that.  Mechanicum is rather annoyed at our hoarding of Dark Age tech (Stasis, Rad, Plasma storm batteries and the engine tech in our fighters) and do not give us access to new toys like storm potatos or Mr Potato on stilt suits*.

 

Now maybe we have a Forge world fiefdom somewhere in our collection of worlds..  but the official Mechanicum is allergic to us...

 

 

*And why would I want Centurions anyway?  Termies can do the job...

[rendingon1+]

 

Pretty much the opposite of that.  Mechanicum is rather annoyed at our hoarding of Dark Age tech (Stasis, Rad, Plasma storm batteries and the engine tech in our fighters) and do not give us access to new toys like storm potatos or Mr Potato on stilt suits*.

 

Now maybe we have a Forge world fiefdom somewhere in our collection of worlds..  but the official Mechanicum is allergic to us...

 

 

*And why would I want Centurions anyway?  Termies can do the job...

 

Yes, pacts with some Forge Worlds are entirely possible. Extract from extract of Ezekiel:

‘The request for aid came not from Honoria but Mars.’

 

‘The Adeptus Mechanicus? What interest do they have in this world?’

 

‘That I do not know, but it must be of the utmost import to them as they have invoked the Pact of Kulgotha to secure our aid.’

 

‘It has been less than a century since they last held us to our oath. Surely the sacrifices we made on Faze V released us from the Pact?’

 

‘I’m certain that we have repaid the Mechanicus tenfold in the eight thousand years since we made our bargain, but an oath is an oath and the sons of the Lion always pay their debts. I do not need your powers of foresight to see the darkness that lies ahead for humanity.’

 

Ezekiel blinked involuntarily.

 

‘We would do well to placate what few allies we have left,’

BTW I don't think there's such thing as a "official Mechanicum", sure in some dusty archive of Mars (leftovers of) Caliban might be marked as a "not welcome" area for curious adepts but Forge Worlds as such are quite autonomic in their policy. I bet DA have many, many pacts with AdMech based on many things like: defending the FW, giving Mechanicum some rare,old tech that DA have no use for, assistance in expedition or, for example, Space Hulk exploring (just like in Death of Integrity). Or.... Dark Angels may have some kind of leverage on some righ ranking magos.

[Volt]

There used to be 250,000 or so Dark Angels, with maybe a tenth of more of that number comprised of Deathwing. It's safe to say they have a bunch of Terminator armor in their armories, especially relic suits. 

[Welcheren]

The Lexicanum lists Ultramarines at 250 000 (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion), so might the First have included 250 000 prior to the Third Rangdan Xeonicide (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels)?

 

 

Thanks to everyone for the information.

 

In terms of the Unforgiven's access to Dark Angels kit, let me just see whether I have the broad strokes right.

 

1) Obviously, chapters founded after the Second Founding are not technically equipped by their founding chapter. However, during the Second Founding, the Dark Angels Chapter might have withheld some of the First Legion's resources, with the consequence that subsequent chapters such as the Guardians of the Covenant, might have received some relics and assorted goodies directly from the Dark Angels?

 

2) The Dark Angels might have retained the capacity to produce some ancient patterns of armour, weapons and perhaps some vehicles somewhere on The Rock, which might account for the presence of at least some of these among comparatively younger chapters (Guardians of the Covenant, Disciples of Caliban etc.).

 

3) Young chapters might have discovered and re-purposed equipment from among the Fallen. 

 

Two questions:

I have recently discovered a mention that the First Legion might have secreted stockpiles of equipment across the Imperium prior to the Heresy (apparently the original source is The Wolf King, but I have not yet read it). If correct, chapters created after the Second Founding could have located some of those?

 

Only three Dark Angels successors are officially listed as derived from the Second Founding. Could the Guardians of the Covenant or the Persecutors of Darkness hail from this founding as well? I have it that conjuring connections to the Second Founding is a no-go unless GW makes it official.

[Chaplain Raeven]

 

 

2) The Dark Angels might have retained the capacity to produce some ancient patterns of armour, weapons and perhaps some vehicles somewhere on The Rock, which might account for the presence of at least some of these among comparatively younger chapters (Guardians of the Covenant, Disciples of Caliban etc.).

 

 

 

Either that or they have a crapload of gear around, since they managed to have enough equipment as relics AND to equip a whole chapter (Consecrators) after 10.000 years of attrition .

 

 

 

3) Young chapters might have discovered and re-purposed equipment from among the Fallen. 

 

Seems unlikely for me. I would suspect anything taken from Chaos troops. They might consider their gear tainted. And according to fluff, the discovery of fallen is rare, maybe a couple in each decade.

 

I have recently discovered a mention that the First Legion might have secreted stockpiles of equipment across the Imperium prior to the Heresy (apparently the original source is The Wolf King, but I have not yet read it). If correct, chapters created after the Second Founding could have located some of those?

 

 

 

Seems plausible. They had WORLDS under their dominion. During the Great Crusade, what are the chances that none of them has an armoury if the Legion passes by for a resupply?

[Welcheren]

Thanks.

 

My main curiosity still pertains to relics (that is to say Great Crusade relics) among chapters created after the Second Founding.

[Brother Korahael]

 

To add to it, my understanding is that the Unforgiven also have deep, unspoken ties to very high places within the Mechanicus ranks, which allows a relative abundance of material to be requisitioned to The Rock and all of our Unforgiven brothers across the Imperium.

Pretty much the opposite of that.  Mechanicum is rather annoyed at our hoarding of Dark Age tech (Stasis, Rad, Plasma storm batteries and the engine tech in our fighters) and do not give us access to new toys like storm potatos or Mr Potato on stilt suits*.

 

Now maybe we have a Forge world fiefdom somewhere in our collection of worlds..  but the official Mechanicum is allergic to us...

 

 

*And why would I want Centurions anyway?  Termies can do the job...

 

Huh, there you go. I swear I read somewhere that we had access to some serious production capabilities, but I can't for the life of me recall where I read that.

[rendingon1+]

I think that most plausible explention is that DA have resources (technology, plans etc.) to produce Indomitus terminator armour. Mayby DA as a Legion had thousands of TDA suits but remember, there were several variants: Cataphractii, Tartaros, Indomitus and other that GW/FW will surely introduce in time. And EVERY Deathwing model or art shows DA in Indomitus not catahpractii.

Besides Counting loses in suits since HH to present day, no matter how many suits they possessed it is just impossible that DA had enough to give away to every succesor and having 130+ TDA all th time themselves.

[jlmb_123]

 

Only three Dark Angels successors are officially listed as derived from the Second Founding. Could the Guardians of the Covenant or the Persecutors of Darkness hail from this founding as well? I have it that conjuring connections to the Second Founding is a no-go unless GW makes it official.

 

I find this curious, too. I've no idea what size the DA Legion was (although old fluff, before the Heresy series started, suggested that Legions were about 10,000 strong, with the huge expansion in numbers having shot up following the novels' launch), but it seems incredible that from numbers in the hundreds of thousands, given the importance of the First and the resources which would have been put into them to launch the Great Crusade, the Legion would have ended up 4,000 strong by the end of the Heresy. During the Heresy, they messed about on the fringes of the conflict, away from the big wars, missed the Siege of Terra and became even less communicable after the destruction of Caliban: where did all of those space dudes go?! A fair few would have been killed on Caliban, but, by that logic, either nearly everyone died or there are now a hundred thousand Fallen out there who had inexplicably been left behind during the Crusade.

 

If the Legion had been huge and half had been left on the Caliban, the half that had returned would have been large and well-equipped enough to end the conflict quickly by destroying Caliban (i.e. the breaking up of the planet would have been relatively quick). If it took them a while, then the Legion wasn't so massive and the hundreds-of-thousands strong legions fluff doesn't wash so easily. Likewise, if the Legion had been depleted during the Heresy, those left on Caliban would have been in great fighting shape. It's all quite confusing!

[jbaeza94]

I always heard the DA were not very large by the end of the Heresy, numbering in the 30k's. Combine that with the destruction of Caliban, i think having 15k-20k left isn't too far fetched. Although 3 are official 2nd founding, who is to say chapters haven't died, been excommunicated, or maybe just never mentioned. That's the way i see it. i don't buy only 4 chapters were made out of the 1st Legion.

[Brother dean]

Even the Ultras have 2nd foundings that aren't listed.  However it is unlikely that a second founding chapter would be hidden for 9,700(+/-) years as the Consecrators did not have a reported sighting until m40.200.

[jlmb_123]

I always heard the DA were not very large by the end of the Heresy, numbering in the 30k's. Combine that with the destruction of Caliban, i think having 15k-20k left isn't too far fetched. Although 3 are official 2nd founding, who is to say chapters haven't died, been excommunicated, or maybe just never mentioned. That's the way i see it. i don't buy only 4 chapters were made out of the 1st Legion.

 

Agreed, but the question is why are only three listed? Admittedly, Imperial Fists went from one Successor in second edition to two in third to at least five in the modern age (White Scars and Raven Guard went from one or none each to a list of four or five): perhaps the Dark Angels list hasn't been expanded as much (the Ultramarines one certainly hasn't, despite it having been said since second ed that there were at least thirty three) but the potential number has.

 

This does kind of make the point that there can't be that much inheritance of armour by newly founded Chapter as, if the depletion jbaeza suggests took place, the Terminator armour would have been pretty nicely mangled to kill the chaps inside the suits. Terminator armour must be still being produced.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

 

I always heard the DA were not very large by the end of the Heresy, numbering in the 30k's. Combine that with the destruction of Caliban, i think having 15k-20k left isn't too far fetched. Although 3 are official 2nd founding, who is to say chapters haven't died, been excommunicated, or maybe just never mentioned. That's the way i see it. i don't buy only 4 chapters were made out of the 1st Legion.

 

Agreed, but the question is why are only three listed? Admittedly, Imperial Fists went from one Successor in second edition to two in third to at least five in the modern age (White Scars and Raven Guard went from one or none each to a list of four or five): perhaps the Dark Angels list hasn't been expanded as much (the Ultramarines one certainly hasn't, despite it having been said since second ed that there were at least thirty three) but the potential number has.

 

This does kind of make the point that there can't be that much inheritance of armour by newly founded Chapter as, if the depletion jbaeza suggests took place, the Terminator armour would have been pretty nicely mangled to kill the chaps inside the suits. Terminator armour must be still being produced.

 

 

This affects more than just us, the fluff states that 23 chapters were created from the Ultramarines in the second founding, but also states that they were not all named to make room for us to make our own chapters.

[Irbis]

I always heard the DA were not very large by the end of the Heresy, numbering in the 30k's. Combine that with the destruction of Caliban, i think having 15k-20k left isn't too far fetched. Although 3 are official 2nd founding, who is to say chapters haven't died, been excommunicated, or maybe just never mentioned. That's the way i see it. i don't buy only 4 chapters were made out of the 1st Legion.

 

Yeah, I have no idea from where 'hundreds of thousands' number people throw around came from. The absolute hard cap is biggest legion, the Ultramarines, that didn't even have 'three' hundred thousand. Next biggest were said to be Word Bearers, at 100.000 marines. That was recently revised up again by FW and the 'big' legions, like Sons of Horus, WB, or DA were revised to be around 130-170.000 strong. Rangdan Xenocide fluff mentions loss of 60.000 marines nearly crippled DA, I'd personally say that was around 50% loss and by the time of Heresy DA were rebuilt to be around 100-110.000 marines, including Caliban. If Caliban represented say 30% of all DA, and Lion lost similar amount of forces as the fallen, it would leave DA at 20-25.000 strong, enough to make maybe a dozen successors counting losses from the Scouring.

 

And yeah, it's said that we don't know good 40% of the second founding as data was lost or erased to the lists we have are nowhere near close to being complete.

 

Also, the 'DA did nothing in Heresy' is kind of being retconned right now, didn't they have two big battles in BL books recently? That had to drain available numbers down, too.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

DA did nothing in the heresy never existed. According to old fluff they were together with space wolves, racing to Terra, pausing for Russ to conquer a few world's. That is what is being retconned.

[Rizara]

well according to the fluff, the dark angel now has officially 6 successor chapters, from 2nd edition, they only had 3 successors mentioned, which were the Angels of Vengeance, Angels of Absolution, and Angels of Redemptions.  These 3 in particular were mentioned to all be 2nd founding chapters, as in the Dark Angels only split into 4 chapters after the Heresy.    The other 3 chapters now listed in the official codex are later founding chapters, with the concencrators and Guardians of the Covenant being unknown foundings and Disciples of caliban being founded in late m37.    That being said, there is nothing that officially states the number of chapters founded in the second founding by any particular chapter other than the number founded by the ultramarines, which founded the largest amount and the salamanders which did not have any successors in the second founding.     So, I feel that the dark angels, lost many marines if they were only able to found 3 successors at the second founding, as that would only be 4000 marines are less.   They might have had over a hundred thousand at some point, but they didn't have many successors compared to other chapters.   I think most of the second founding chapters founded per legion during the second founding would have been between 2-5 chapters, with the ultramarines having much more, as most of the other legions were badly depleted defending terra, or having a hard time rebuilding after Istavaan.     

 

That being said, The terminator armors that the legions had, apparently are not the same armor designs of the current terminator designs, thus, those older armors are considered relics and terminator armor isn't unable to be created, it just isn't created as fast as the more mass produced power armor.   Each chapter is only given 100 new suits when it is founded, and after that, they pretty much have to take care of those suits unless affiliated with a forge world.   That being said, some chapters, like the parent chapters may have an easier time aquiring new suits if they suffer a loss of some due to a conflict like the battle of armeggedon.     Outside of that, I would assume, Mars stock piles them for when the creation of new chapters, and only then do they let go of large numbers of Terminator suits, while Power armor is handed out to marines like candy (at least certain marks).    Either way, the armor of space marines are taken care of, repaired, and blessed relics, and the chapters techmarines probably take care of those suits of armor.   I would also assume that after a battle, if the apothecaries go and reclaim the Gene seeds, the techmarines are probably out collecting those suits of armor to take back to the armory for repair and recyling of parts.   The only suits I would assume loss are the ones where they can't really reclaim and that would be the ones destroyed because planets were exterminated or lost due to losing a war, or sucked into the warp.   I think they would recover all they could after a battle, especially if they won.