IA - Red Drakes [IronGauntlet2017]

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Will you have the Chapter's elites (e.g., Honor Guard, Terminators, and Dreadnoughts) wear all green armor, as a status symbol?

[Doctor Perils]

Will you have the Chapter's elites (e.g., Honor Guard, Terminators, and Dreadnoughts) wear all green armor, as a status symbol?

I have been wondering about it, but I think I'd rather have this on a fully personal basis (ie, each marine chooses when he deems he's deserved the honour of getting a few more flames) - therefore, some Veterans may be considered more experienced by their peers and officers, but don't view themselves as having performed well enough to deserve extra green. For instance, I'm aiming to have the chapter master believe that his honour is irredeemably damaged, and will therefore have no green at all on his armour.

[Claws and Effect]

Or have the Chapter Master paint just his right hand with white flames to serve as a constant reminder of the order he gave that killed so many people.

 

No other markings, just the hand that pushed the button.

[Dizzyeye01]

The question I have for you Thorn is what was the purpose for the Red Drakes being founded in the first place? Was it to protect a sector from raiders and pirates? Or were they created because the Emperors' Tarot said it must be so?

 

Also, while it is clear at least for the first generation of Red Drakes that they feel grief for having to burn their first homeworld to the ground, how does those not born there feel about the matter? What's it to them, they were not introduced to that place or anything. In fact how does the Imperium at large view this action?

[Doctor Perils]

The question I have for you Thorn is what was the purpose for the Red Drakes being founded in the first place? Was it to protect a sector from raiders and pirates? Or were they created because the Emperors' Tarot said it must be so?

 

Also, while it is clear at least for the first generation of Red Drakes that they feel grief for having to burn their first homeworld to the ground, how does those not born there feel about the matter? What's it to them, they were not introduced to that place or anything. In fact how does the Imperium at large view this action?

1-I'll be explaining one of their first great missions in one of the upcoming parts of the origins section (ie, a reclamation crusade), which is one of the reasons for their founding (though I'm not completely partial to the idea that all chapters need a specific reason for a founding)

2-this is one of the reasons I wanted them to be of the 26th founding - a mere two centuries before the current point in the setting : many marines will still remember the burning of elitraea, and most will have been part of the chapter before it earned it's name. The dynamics of pre- and post-burning marines would be interesting to explore as you suggest, so I'll see how I can integrate it into the storyline

[Doctor Perils]

Inquisitorial investigations

When word of the Burning of Elitraea reached the High Lords of Terra, they were understandably aghast, and immediately sent a delegation of the Ordo Astartes to investigate any potential corruption of Chapter 893.

Initial meetings between the Inquisitors and Chapter Master Se’Ghan did not go well: the Inquisition were overtly hostile to the Astartes and did not trust the word of the burners of Elitraea; whereas Se’Ghan, already betrayed by the people over which his chapter rightfully ruled, felt insulted and humiliated that his loyalty be put into question. However, both parties eventually came to an agreement: it had become clear that the Chapter had acted out of necessity, not out of allegiance to any dark powers.

Nonetheless, when Se’Ghan requested a new homeworld for his Chapter – after consultation with the commanders of the Segmentum, the High Lords of Terra, and even the Tarot of the Emperor – the Ordo Astartes were obliged to refuse: Chapter 893 would only be granted partial recruitment rights to a handful of worlds from the sector. Despite their outrage, the Space Marines knew they could only bow down to this decision, in the hope that it may be reversed in several decades with a council of the High Lords more favourable to their plight.

In the mean time, the Astartes needed a solution to the recruitment of neophytes: their partial recruitment rights indicated that they could only choose ten potential candidates per year from each of the four planets included in the agreement. What’s more, they were warned that they would be held accountable for any further rebellions, despite being denied any executive power over these worlds.

[Draakur]

I like it!

 

If that's total recruits to trial and test etc, then that's potentially a very low recruit intake though I would think. Presumably 90%+ of those will perish during trials, surgery, indoctrination etc. Is the idea for them to be suffering on this side of things?

[Doctor Perils]

I like it!

 

If that's total recruits to trial and test etc, then that's potentially a very low recruit intake though I would think. Presumably 90%+ of those will perish during trials, surgery, indoctrination etc. Is the idea for them to be suffering on this side of things?

I thought the death rate was slightly lower, but nonetheless yes the chapter will have trouble with their recruitment intake (for a certain time at least) as the chapter is still rather young, that means that by 999.M41 their numbers may have been eroded both by campaigns and their lack of recruits: they may not be in immediate danger but they may well feel concern about it

[Lysimachus]

Very nice, I like the idea of the humanitarian Salamanders basically forced into the horrific action of burning their own Homeworld. It doesn't make sense to me though that if they want to atone for their actions that they'd still continue using the same 'terror' weapons? Surely they'd want avoid it if at all possible?

 

I do like the green flames on the armour and the thought of adding more green as they feel they've atoned. It's almost like they'd feel they've got back to being like - and earned the forgiveness of - their forebears, true Salamanders?

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I'm kind of amazed that I haven't commented on this beforehand. A couple of questions.

 

How are they named? The drakes bit is obvious, but the 'red' part? Does it come from their use of flame on their populations, the red for the blood they spilled?

 

How do they interact with Imperial institutions, specifically the guard? Are they seen as demons, terrorists to be avoided, or just another chapter of Astartes? DO they outright refuse the chapter's help for fear of what will happen? (I apologize if this has been asked already/answered elsewhere.)

[Doctor Perils]

I'll have to get back to these (valid) concerns at a later date.

The end point is coming up rapidly

[Donkey Kong]

The only instance of psychological warfare you've touched on so far is marching into war without helmets to scare human opponents. That's.... really boring.

 

There are a few avenues I think that you can go with for the chemical weapons angle. The first idea is that the chemical weapons are a controlled use of overwhelming force. The Chapter doesn't want to exterminatus the planet, they want to beat the world into submission. What better way to illustrate it than setting one hive city to the torch to save half a dozen or so others.

 

Another option could be that the Dragons don't know what phosphex weapons are. They stumble upon an old arsenal one way or another and bombard the hive expecting conventional destruction and getting a chemical immolation. If the hive has stockpiles of its own, which it probably does, that should also set off the hive's weapons, conventional bombs and explosives, possibly atomics.

 

I do like your spin on the typical homeworld-marine dynamic though. Not angels, not heroes, but terrifying monsters that abduct the strongest sons and threaten to set the world aflame if they meet resistance again.

 

Why is the Chapter so strictly limited in the number of boys it can recruit? What are the other four worlds and why do they matter?

 

How many battle brothers by the end of M41 are Elitraeans? How does the Chapter convince boys who are brought up terrified of what the Chapter has done to their homeworld convinced to be guilty for actions they believe to not only be guilty of, but an injustice against them? It makes sense for marines who were alive to witness the bombing still being alive to feel guilt, but the new recruits? It's one thing to be guilty for something you've done. It's another thing to be guilty for something your ancestors have done. It's another thing entirely to be guilty for something your adoptive ancestors have done to your ancestors or perhaps even to you if there were Elitraean Dragons recruited in the relative immediate aftermath of the bombing.

 

I don't like the darker black helmet for older marines thing.

 

What is a Brandmeister? Are they Chaplains? If they aren't, why aren't the Brandmeister's duties done by Chaplains?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The only instance of psychological warfare you've touched on so far is marching into war without helmets to scare human opponents. That's.... really boring.

I agree. Maybe the Red Drakes can wear war masks to terrify the enemy, or (if the original author insists they be unmasked) file their teeth into sharp points, as the Carcharodons do?

Another option could be that the Dragons don't know what phosphex weapons are. They stumble upon an old arsenal one way or another and bombard the hive expecting conventional destruction and getting a chemical immolation. If the hive has stockpiles of its own, which it probably does, that should also set off the hive's weapons, conventional bombs and explosives, possibly atomics.

No one will use a weapon he's unfamiliar with, unless he's stupid or desperate. The latter is believable for the Red Drakes, i.e., they captured a rebel arms cache (which contained artillery with phosphex shells), the rebels counterattacked to recover that cache, and in desperation, the Red Drakes used the captured weapons (ignorant of what those weapons could do).

 

Of course, phosphex weapons are rare in the 41st millennium. If that explanation is used, people (including those in-universe, e.g., the AdMech and the Inquisition) will want to know where the weapons came from.

[NovemberIX]

The planet itself reads as rather developed, maybe it used to be a resupply base during a previous war, and the phosphex is just a left over. Or the planet was a place to decommission those weapons and as part of the uprising some of those weapons were then used, it can also be reason for the escalation of force.

 

I do have one opinion on loyalist psychological warfare, it's extremely hard to get right, and it's even more difficult to not be derivative. Carcharodons being probably the most definitive example via pure brutality. That said, using flame and chemical warfare is the right first step. Maybe another tactic is to start a ring of fire that encircles the enemy, with possibly the only way out being right into the waiting weapons of the Red Drakes. If we really wanna get macabre, as the Drakes siege a city or hive, they'll launch the burned bodies of other cities citizens, possibly booby trapped with explosives or phosphex grenades. And then there's the last line to cross before damnation, and that's targeting the juves specifically. The question is, for a chapter that's supposed to have a conscience, why go to these extremes?

[Kelborn]

Fighting fire with fire?

 

Or

 

Sometimes, mankind does not need another hero. Sometimes, it needs its own monsters.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

"Sometimes, [mankind] needs its own monsters," is a GREAT line.

[Brother Argent]

So I am just randomly plucking articles from the list of challengers and offering my thoughts. Heed or discard at your own pleasure.

So, not the hugest amount to comment on but with so many of the other entries in the Gauntlet I see huge potential here. I love the idea of a Salamander's successor becoming essentially the very thing they strive not to be. I assume the idea of them striving to redeem themselves is going to be the core of the Chapter and I think it will give you an interesting, if not difficult, path to walk. Keeping them unique and, as you posted earlier, not too similar to Dark Angels or Fists in how they handle their guilt will be the key to the Drakes standing or not.

So in terms of the purging on their homeworld its going to take a pretty strong force to beat a Chapter, even a newly founded one, like that to the point of them taking such drastic action. Dont forget these guys are to a normal person what a tank is to a car. Particularly fully armed and armoured. In saying that I think it could work if the rebellious peoples had some kind of super weapon themselves. Perhaps even launching it at the Drakes whom, to save their Chapter, detonate it in the planets atmosphere and set fire to the atmosphere, condemning the planets population to death while, at the same time, the marines are protected in their somewhat finished Fortress Monastery. Thus the Chapter Master knowingly condemned thousands of innocents to die in a horrible manner but at the same time its not a Salamander acting very much out of character for his Chapter.

In saying that Tu'Shan from the Salamander books is a bit of a douche so its not unfair to say that such a character could exist, particularly is the guy feels he has something to prove as the new Master of new Chapter.

Like everyone else I love the colour scheme and think the green flames work well. Not much else to say other then I love how this is going and I defiently think you have potential.

Keep at the heroic anti-hero angle and look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Doctor Perils]

On my way back to this: I've added the following paragraph and will be adressing the valid concerns that have been bought up over the last month.

 

 

The chapter's solution was the creation of a specialised corps of Astartes, known as the Brandknechten: these Space Marines would have the twin duties of recruiting potential neophytes and of ensuring Imperial Law was upheld by acting both as judges and executionners.

By the time the Brandknecht corps could be deployed to their new worlds, word of the plight of the Elitraeans had spread throughout the sector: far from complicating the integration of the specialists as the chapter had been wary of, the local peoples made sure to respect the power of the Marines – after all, no one wanted to be burnt at the stake as had been suggested by the rumours that told of the wrath of the grey giants.

[Ferrus Manus]

I'm curious as to why the people originally revolted in the first place, was it out right refusal of the outsiders or was there more to it? Could this be where the CHapter began to develop their psychological MO? I think this could be developed into an interesting point in the Chapter's history that explains much of their current character.

[Kelborn]

I like the idea of the Brandknechts.

Do the Red Drake have a bit of German / Germanic influence?

 

So they got Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians and Brandknechts? Think that you could combine certain special ranks.

 

For example: Flamewardens, combination of Apothecaries and Chaplains, those, who ignite the flames in their new Neophyte brothers & those, who keep the flames alive within their battle brothers

[Legionare]

Once again a chapter whose color scheme i just absolutely love. Hopefully we get to see some miniatures painted in this scheme soon. I also very much enjoyed reading the chapters origins that was... well tragic to say the least. And the fact that they weren't even granted a new homeworld made their tale so far seem even more like a ancient greek tragedy, in a good way.

 

However i would like to read more about your chapter, especially about their beliefs (how has their tragic origins affected their belief, or have their beliefs stayed the same despite their world burning around them?) and about their combat doctrine (do they use chemical weapons in all their campaigns or are they even banned because of the shame they had caused to the chapter?). 

[Doctor Perils]

Thanks all for the comments - I will be coming back to earlier comments at a later time :)

 

I like the idea of the Brandknechts.

Do the Red Drake have a bit of German / Germanic influence?

 

So they got Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians and Brandknechts? Think that you could combine certain special ranks.

 

For example: Flamewardens, combination of Apothecaries and Chaplains, those, who ignite the flames in their new Neophyte brothers & those, who keep the flames alive within their battle brothers

They'll probably have a small Landsknecht influence (german mercenaries from the modern period), but it might be rather light - instead they'll have a lot of fire stuff.

 

I don't think I'll be making combinations, because the Brandknect (I'll be stealing the "Flamewarden" term as the Low Gothic translation) are more an intermediary rank - veterans all become Brandknechten before joining the first company as such. A Brandmeister will be a Brandknecht section master, who'll be officers but less high up then Captains or Chaplains.

 

Once again a chapter whose color scheme i just absolutely love. Hopefully we get to see some miniatures painted in this scheme soon. I also very much enjoyed reading the chapters origins that was... well tragic to say the least. And the fact that they weren't even granted a new homeworld made their tale so far seem even more like a ancient greek tragedy, in a good way.

 

However i would like to read more about your chapter, especially about their beliefs (how has their tragic origins affected their belief, or have their beliefs stayed the same despite their world burning around them?) and about their combat doctrine (do they use chemical weapons in all their campaigns or are they even banned because of the shame they had caused to the chapter?). 

As I'm going to try to fulfill the Iron Gauntlet, you should see miniatures painted in the scheme at some stage - hopefully the new starter set is out by that time.

I should be developping this a lot more - their core beliefs will be based on the Promethean cult, but with the added shame element. However, this shame won't stop them from using the most horrific weapons against the Heretic and the Xenos: instead, they'll be doing their best to protect loyal citizens (which will probably bring them into conflict with other loyal Imperial Factions, giving them dilemmas that would be more interesting)

[Legionare]

 

 

 

Once again a chapter whose color scheme i just absolutely love. Hopefully we get to see some miniatures painted in this scheme soon. I also very much enjoyed reading the chapters origins that was... well tragic to say the least. And the fact that they weren't even granted a new homeworld made their tale so far seem even more like a ancient greek tragedy, in a good way.

 

However i would like to read more about your chapter, especially about their beliefs (how has their tragic origins affected their belief, or have their beliefs stayed the same despite their world burning around them?) and about their combat doctrine (do they use chemical weapons in all their campaigns or are they even banned because of the shame they had caused to the chapter?). 

As I'm going to try to fulfill the Iron Gauntlet, you should see miniatures painted in the scheme at some stage - hopefully the new starter set is out by that time.

I should be developping this a lot more - their core beliefs will be based on the Promethean cult, but with the added shame element. However, this shame won't stop them from using the most horrific weapons against the Heretic and the Xenos: instead, they'll be doing their best to protect loyal citizens (which will probably bring them into conflict with other loyal Imperial Factions, giving them dilemmas that would be more interesting)

Thanks for the answer. I'm also looking forward to those new models and painting them in my colours. The dilemmas that trying to protect imperial citizens sound interesting. I'll be keeping an eye out for updates in this thread