Grey Knights in Shadow Wars

[Sete]

Dude you seriously are just looking for bad things to say.

 

If you play to lose yeah retreat 100 times if you fancy it.

Whatevs

 

Campaigns are capped at 15 caches.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Sete

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

Note that in SW, being armed with 2 weapons doesn't mean +1 A, rather it means that he doesn't need to split the attacks he makes between his sword and his stormbolter.

 

Are you absolutely sure about that?

 

The Fighting With Two Weapons rule in Necromunda gave a model with a pistol or hand-to-hand combat weapon in each hand an extra attack die, and the rules for Dark Eldar Gladiatorial Weapons state that they "count as two weapons for the purposes of the fighting with two weapons rule." Gladiatorial Weapons take up both hands and can never be used in combat alongside other weapons, so I can't imagine what that could be referring to other than something like the Necromunda rule of the same name. Unfortunately I haven't got access to the Shadow Wars rules proper so I can't check for myself.

[Gentlemanloser]

I have a knack for finding flaws with systems.

 

It's probably my mutant superpower.

 

Capped at 15?

 

Then what is there to stop me restarting 15 times?

 

Who cares if the winner gets d3 to my 1.

 

We'll both be at 15 before we play the first match.

 

Yeah we can all house rule to agree we can take x specialists if we both want. But for those dudes that wasn't too stock bt the rules.

 

What's stopping me from forcing a 15 cache start?

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Sete]

You lose the game winner gets D3 caches.

He will reach 15 before you for sure unless he rolls terribly 15 times.

 

What's the point of playing then? If you just want to restart 15 times?

 

I feel your super power is grasping at straws.

There is no flaw with the sistem, just with your interpretation of it.

 

Read the full rules before finding flaws on it, it makes poor discussion.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Sete

[Commander Dawnstar]

Who cares if the winner gets d3 to my 1.

 

Well for one you opponent(s) could be spending some of the additional caches you'll be giving them to give themselves more points to spend on recruiting more members to their Kill Team and  better equipping them between games. If the D3 gives them an average of two caches every time then you might show up to that 16th game against an opponent who not only matches you for Specialists but also fields as much as 2,500 points of their warband proper to your 1,000.

 

What's stopping me from forcing a 15 cache start?

 

With the above, presumably the fact that you're unlikely to find anyone with the patience to put up with that sort of approach to the game.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Brightstar

[Gentlemanloser]

Hard to get the rules for a sold out game.

 

It doesn't matter if my opponent reaches 15 first. As i continue to retreat until we both have 15 each...

 

Blood bowl punishes retiring. This system needs to do something similar.

 

Retreating shouldn't be an option.

 

Caches give you a perm increase to the squad cost you have?

 

Edit. For those with the rules. Do specialists last until they die? Or are they single match only?

 

Edit2.

 

It also sounds like toy can play someone who has earned many times more caches as toy have. And have a horribly unbalanced game.

 

Blood bowl negates this with inducements.

 

Does shadow war have anything similair? If not then i honestly don't think ilk touch it with a barge pole...

 

Facing a guy who has had 50 caches to your 10. Not gonna be any fun...

Edited April 5, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Commander Dawnstar]

It doesn't matter if my opponent reaches 15 first. As i continue to retreat until we both have 15 each...

 

Your opponent would win the campaign if you conceded while they had 15 caches. The default win condition for a campaign is to acquire 15 caches and then win any subsequent match.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Brightstar

[Ioldanach]

Okay, getting back to some discussion that is actually useful...

 

What kind of team do you think you'll field?

...I've been considering my options here. With the low model count of a Grey Knights team, it seems possible to build pretty much all of the reasonable options using two Grey Knights boxes to create a stable of models for experimentation and tweaking of the team. If nothing else, I can see experimenting by having, say, 1 Nemesis Daemon hammer, 1 Nemesis warding stave, 2 Nemesis falchions pairs, 2 Nemesis force swords, and 2 Nemesis force halberds. I'm committing the heresy of modeling my "Grey Knights" kill team as the Legio Bolter & Chainsword. So I'm going to cheat a bit with the gunner options. What I'm considering is having a single model converted to be a gunner, posed in a manner similar to Ryu or Iron Man. He could then represent any of the special weapon options (I'll have to be very clear in identifying which he is using to my opponent).

 

Frankly, I can't find any way to get a Grey Knights kill team at 5 models - the cheapest option is the Nemesis warding stave and that only gets me 4 models if all are equipped identically. A team without a gunner might have 4 models, though a Nemesis force halberd or a Nemesis Daemon hammer will eat points up quickly. Any team with a gunner looks to max out at 3 models.

 

Anyhow, based on what I've seen in the downloadable rules and an artistic vision of what I'd like my models to look like, here's an initial team concept:

• Justicar (Pair of Nemesis falchions, Psybolts, Weapon reload (storm bolter), Meltabombs)
• Trooper (Nemesis force halberd, Psybolts, Weapon reload (storm bolter))
• Gunner (Incinerator, Weapon reload)

I'm guessing that the weapon reload for the incinerator is 38 points, but there's a safety cushion of 12 points if I'm wrong (current math totals at 988 pts). And there will obviously be some tweaking once I know the rules for the miscellaneous items. I don't even know if the reloads are an effective use of points.

 

I'd be interested in the thoughts of anyone that has played or has the rules (and not speculation) with regard to whether or not such a team might be viable.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I have a knack for finding flaws with systems.

 

It's probably my mutant superpower.

 

 

 

 

So your superpower is to auto-lose the campaign while not actually moving models around on the table and having any fun at all?

 

Oh dear, how pointless. Just concede and stop wasting other players time.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

I'd be interested in the thoughts of anyone that has played or has the rules (and not speculation) with regard to whether or not such a team might be viable.

 

 

My thoughts were to go for boys rather than toys initially. It looks easier to add toys in during the campaign than to be adding in expensive GK.

 

So what I have sitting ready for action are

 

Justiciar, Sword

GK, falchions

GK, falchions

Gunner, falchions, Psybolts

 

Very simple, seems to maximise the power of our Stormbolters so far as is possible and has the Justiciar to take down hard to kill targets. I would definitely want to add grenades as soon as possible but otherwise would take upgrades depending on how the campaign was going and who was doing well.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah becuase i have access to the full rules...

 

Again is there any sort of inducement in shadow war to limit disparity in power?

 

That's the most important question.

[Brother Tyler]

I've gone through and removed a bunch of posts that were off topic. Remember, folks, this topic is about Grey Knights in Shadow War: Armageddon. If you have questions about the game in general, please take them up in the Other Games forum where the game is covered.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing a Legio B&C kill team. And the Ryu pose for a gunner sounds very creative.

 

While Kill Team and Shadow War: Armageddon are different games, I'm guessing that the axiom, so eloquently stated by Happy-inquisitor, of "boys rather than toys" still applies. The heavy use of cover in this game means that those nifty shooting weapons are less effective in terms of whittling numbers down (as they do in standard Warhammer 40,000) and simply give you a better chance of killing a single model. You might get lucky if your opponent doesn't spread his models out (with a template weapon), but the small model count in a Grey Knights team practically forces you to go for maximum numbers.

 

As the discussion has shown, some of the nuances of team building for the game aren't going to be readily apparent until the rules are in hand and some games are played. It hadn't even occurred to me that a team could start without a special weapon and gain one later as part of campaign progression. I was wrestling with my own concepts of a team and the debate raged between taking one of the special weapons for shootiness or maximizing boots on the ground. With the revelation that I can add the special weapon later, I'm decidedly in favor of boots on the ground now for my own team (Grey Knights to represent my Nova Hawks) Since I simply don't have the time to be painting up yet another force, so I'll use this as incentive to finish the kill team, so my team composition will be limited to the loadouts in the current team (link to that in the linked post). Suffice to say that I can do most combinations minus the Nemesis Daemon hammer and the special weapons. The idea of a "psychic power" representation for a special weapon is actually intriguing. I worry about opponents possibly objecting, but the modeling opportunity alone is enticing.

 

I'm going to hold off on full development until I see the rules, though, as things like a red dot laser sight might actually prove useful once I understand how they work.

[Reyner]

Red Dot Sights give a flat +1 to hit but if the targeted model can see the red dot laser (within a 90° arc) they get a 6++ save to represent them diving out of the way of the laser :D 

[jeffersonian000]

I still have a metal Justicar with laser sight on his bolter to represent a targeting laser we use to be able to have. /wink

 

SJ

[Prot]

Since GK seem limited in the Campaign as far as adding recruits, I'm not sure I'll do them. But they do look strong for their numbers.

 

So far I'm thinking:

 

Justicar (leader) base load out + Dual Falchions 280

 

Grey Knight: base load out + Force Sword (60) + Psybolts 265

 

Gunner: base load out + Psilencer (150) + Clip Harness (10) + Red Dot (20) 320

 

Brings me to 945.

 

My first Promethium cache will be traded in for the use of  Terminator.

 

My first 100 points for toys... not too sure.

 

Purifiers look good too, but termies roll 2D6 for armour saves.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Prot

[Ioldanach]

I hear you guys on the model count thing, but I have to admit that I'm too excited about the Ryu pose guy to want to discard that. So I'm going to start with the low model count list (adjusted, see below) and prepare some other models in case I feel I need to increase the team size. So my adjusted (initial) team will look like:

 

Justicar, Nemesis force sword, Psybolts, Meltabombs

Grey Knight (trooper), Pair of Nemesis falchions, Psybolts

Grey Knight Gunner, Red-dot laser sight, Psycannon

 

1,000 points exactly (assuming my math is correct)

 

Once I have those three models finished, I'll probably prepare a gunner with just the storm bolter, a model with a halberd, and a model with a stave so that I can play around with different team compositions.

[jeffersonian000]

I just want to field my Hexagramic Wards kill team of GK Interceptors. : (

 

SJ

[rendingon1+]

Still waiting for my copy of rules but grey knights look very interesting to me. Are the falchions (and then a hammer) a way to go in cc? Cheap, reroll to wound and double parry...

Edited April 8, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeff it seems the best that can be done would be paying promethean to get as many interceptors as you can afford for a single match. In adaption to your leader and normal squad.

 

The more my discussion in the other games form goes on, the less enamored i am by a campaign.

 

You can't really choose to retreat ( only choose to fail the roll when the game is going badly enough to allow you to retreat).

 

And there's nothing to stop opponent imbalance as a campaign goes on.

 

For example. You lose the first match. And your leader is out. So you don't get 100 points. Your opponent does and is lucky enough to get 3 promethean to your 1.

 

Next match. He has 100 points on top of you, so a better guns or new recruit. And purchases a terminator or two.

 

This makes it harder for you to win the next match. So in the third game your opponent has more points, more dudes and more specialists. With promethean to spare.

 

And it snowballs from there.

 

Doesn't really sound fun for whoever is in the losing side. Especially with another 5, 6, or more matches to slog through.

 

I really hope something is missing here.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Plasmablasts]

I'd been wondering about the apparently odd system for recruiting Specialist Operatives and their wargear, as it looks like your single promethium cache could as easily buy you a Paladin with Daemonhammer and Psycannon as a bare-bones Interceptor. (I don't have access to the rule book so I could easily be missing something.) However, I think the bounty rule is supposed to balance this. That is, if you decide to spend a cache to hire a Paladin, you risk losing him and granting your opponent d3 promethium caches, which could effectively mean that your choice (and bad luck) pits your opponent up to four caches ahead of you in the campaign.

[shandwen]

Much like mordheim was, balance is nearly non-existant late campaign. A couple poor turns in your first game could quute possibly make the rest of the campaign very difficult, but that does make it into a campaign rather than just a series of battles.

What frightens me about grey knights is the inability to hire any new bodies unless you manage to get a guerilla skill upgtade. The cheapest possible recruit is a trooper at 205 points: so 5 points higher than is normally possible (at least after a loss).

[Plasmablasts]

Is it actually the case that GK can't recruit new team members or just that they don't have "New Recruit" class fighters? Again, I'm among the unwashed masses without access to the rule book...

 

Cheapest GK I can see is a trooper with warding stave, coming in at 200 points.

[Prot]

Is it actually the case that GK can't recruit new team members or just that they don't have "New Recruit" class fighters? Again, I'm among the unwashed masses without access to the rule book...

Cheapest GK I can see is a trooper with warding stave, coming in at 200 points.

They just don't have new recruits. So yes, you can Recruit, but for Grey Knights this means simply you are adding a new "fighter".

 

The thing to remember is you can take your 100 points and cash in a Promethium Cache to give yourself 200 points towards recruiting.

 

I joined our GW's local campaign with Grey Knights. I really like them but see that they have some cool advantages but also some setbacks. It's obviously a fun thing and nearly impossible to look at in a very competitive light. But it is a great excuse to nam some of your dudes, model some new guys, and create some cool background for your army good no into 8th or whatever.

[Plasmablasts]

Thanks Prot. That had been my interpretation but, as I said, I only had the GK PDF available. Does sound like GK should be fun. Alas, all my Strikes are pewter, with only halberds, a sword-armed Justicar and an incinerator. I may have to get some more plastic and Leadbelcher to increase my options...

[Kilofix]

The problem I have with GKs in Shadow War is that they get pinned to easily. Any thoughts to get around this?

 

Also, I haven't quite figured out if I should gear them for range or cc.