The Ultramarines relationships with successor chapters

[Lords of Preyspire]

Hey all,

Do we have any information on the relationship between the ultramarines and their successor chapters? The fact that the honour company exists implies a level of coordination and familiarity. Have we seen a crusade or defence that was called utilising ultra successors solely?

[IronDrake28]

Not all of them are friendly, the Mortifactors spring to mind.

[Ryltar Thamior]

There's clearly quite a heightened level of co-ordination going on between teh Ultramarines and many (but not all) of their successors. The Honour Company, as you've mentioned, is probably the best proof of this. Although the fact that many Ultramarines successors will have veteran marines or heroes (dependent upon relative proximity to Ultramar) attempt to make pilgrimages to Macragge, and maintain active diplomatic/doctrinal-conferment engagements with the Ultramarines, further substantiates this theory. 

It's rather that-word-people-keep-misusing-as-ironic, in a way - because for all the charges levied at both the Dark Angels and Black Templars that they're "legions masquerading as chapters" due to size and co-ordiation of disparate chapter-sized elements ... it looks like the actual originators of the breakup of the Legions are also playing the same game.

Now, further proof that there's something supra-Codexical going on can be addeuced from the Genesis Chapter. There's fluff-citations for them literally operating alongside the Ultramarines as a matter of course - and, further, actually having battle brothers seconded to the Ultramarines to fill holes in the latter's ranks caused by casualties or the needs of extenuating circumstance. This is effectively made possible because the Genesis Chapter goes to such extreme lengths to ensure that their OWN fighting doctrines are pretty much carbon-copy codex-compliant mirror images of those of the Ultramariens, so that the 'loan marines' don't have any issue seamlessly assimilating into operatoin with their 'parent' chapter. [in specia, deferring decisions of doctrinal/codex interpretation on to the friendly neighbourhood Ultramarines chaplain for actual approval] 

So in terms of the Ultramarines having links to their successor chapters ... we therefore have fluff precedence for some seriously /close/ relationships going on. Possibly beyond hte bounds of what some might considerto be 'propriety'. 

[battle captain corpus]

Yep pretty much the Genesis Chapter are the epitome of the Codex and its practises. :)

 

There are many that are not though, with some literally sharing just gene lineage at best. Interestingly though there isn't a list with the divergences involved that I can find though. :(

 

Genesis Chapter hobbyists are a niche within a niche within a niche though I can tell you from personal experience. I'm working on a long term project (please see link in my sig) on this very thing.

 

The Deathwatch Roleplay system invested some canon into the later Ultras foundings so that maybe worth peeking at also. And obviously older codecies.

 

BCC

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden's 'Night Lords' trilogy clearly stated the Ultramarines and their successors WILL reunite- recreating the XIII Legion- to deal with certain threats. (The example Talos cited was the Ultramarines and their successors destroying the Night Lords base on Tsagualsa.)

[Lords of Preyspire]

Ah cool, thanks for all the replies. Seems like there is a fairly high level of cooperative shenanigans going on. I'm wondering long term how this will play out post G-mans return.

 

Although the fact that many Ultramarines successors will have veteran marines or heroes (dependent upon relative proximity to Ultramar) attempt to make pilgrimages to Macragge, and maintain active diplomatic/doctrinal-conferment engagements with the Ultramarines, further substantiates this theory

That's cool, is that from the 2nd ed Ultra codex or something? I also didn't know that about the Genesis chapter, very interesting. I always supposed that the sons of guilliman chapter probably have very strong links as well.

 

Interesting bit from the night lords book as well. Almost like the 'last wall' (or something similar to that) protocol from the beast arise series.

[Brother Tyler]

Keep in mind that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of all Chapters are descended from the Ultramarines Legion. When you consider the pride and independence of the Adeptus Astartes, it seems unlikely that all of those Chapters would coordinate their efforts with the Ultramarines Chapter. While some might coordinate their efforts with the Ultramarines Chapter, others might ignore them completely, or may even be aloof and/or unfriendly, regardless of their views on Roboute Guilliman. The Primarch's return might change those relationships in complex ways, but some may still view themselves, rightly, as equals to the Ultramarines Chapter (rather than subordinate). I don't doubt that those that carry Roboute Guilliman's heritage in their gene-seed will obey him, but that doesn't mean that they'll obey the Ultramarines Chapter (assuming Roboute Guilliman doesn't take direct active control of the Chapter again).

 

As for the Tsagualsa incident, do we have a date for it? The only named Chapters that took part in the incident were among the Primogenitors. This implies the possibility that it took place before the Third Founding, possibly while Roboute Guilliman still "lived" (i.e., before he was injured by Fulgrim) and had the authority to coordinate their efforts as a quasi-legion (after he'd broken the XIIIth Legion up in the Second Founding).

[Ryltar Thamior]

Most of my fluff-fu these days is derived from spending too much time on Lexicanum, 40kwiki, and 1d4chan. Which I've just spent an hour or two scouring. I mention this, because I'm somewhat furious that the fruits of my labour just wound up vanishing off into the ether, with auto-save being of no salvation. 

Anyway, once more:

Much of the background for what we're talking about is sourced from teh FFG Deathwatch books. Including, rather interestingly, details on the Black Consuls chapter - who are specifically noted as sending their battle-brothers on pilgrimages to Macragge [indeed , it's one of hte key reasons there are still some Black COnsuls around to talk about - when most of their chapter was annihilated, there were a number either en-route to or from Ultramar]; as well as providing "counselors" to the Ultramarines command [although given the context, it's possible that this just means Calgar or somebody asked for advice of the Black Consuls, and was given it]. 

THere's a somewaht similar situation forthe Novamarines - where interestingly, it's noted that there's apparently a practice amongst Ultramarines successors of sending "representatives to the court of Marneus Calgar"; and, again, a practice of pilgrimage amongst the Novamarines brothers [apparently it's a goal for pretty much all of them to be able to do so one day; and there's a custom of marking hte helmets of those who've managed it with a laurel]. 

We also have the Patriarchs of Ulixis cited as regularly seconding their veteran marines to the Honour Guards of other Ultramarine-descended chapters due to their skill. And, going the other way, pilots from other chapters being sent to the Hawk Lords to hone their aerial combat skills.  

Further, the way quite a number of Guilliman geneseed-bearers all decided to declare grievous insult in response to the conduct of the Minotaurs against the Inceptors, additionally substantiates a working relationship between many of these chapters based around blood-ties. 

I've also found a number of mentions of Crusades or large-scale actions which feature a preponderance of Ultramarines and Ultramarines successors [e.g the Corinth Crusade, and First Tyrannic War [Novamarines, Imperius Reavers]], although I'm yet to track down anything that's properly Ultramarines *exclusive*. 

So all things considered, I think we're starting to establish a pattern here; of Ultramarines successors directly exchanging personnel, working together to improve the competency of tehir own warriors, encouraging inter-chapter contact more broadly - particularly through this custom of 'pilgrimages' [which no doubt help to facilitate interoperability and an 'appropriate' respect for their shared heritage and hte present custodians thereof] taking combined action [or, at least, combined outrage] in response to threats or insults, and even maintaining functionality as an effective quasi-feudal alliance/vassalage [as evinced by there being a central political body of sorts in the form of the Court of Calgar, to which the Ultramarines' gene-childer at least attempt to send representatives to]. 

In other words, even if they aren't QUITE as "we're not a Legion, guys, honest!" as the Dark Angels seem to be ... they still clearly seem to be functioning as a much more 'coagulated' [or, at hte least, 'confederated'] body of not-quite-entirely-autonomous fighting forces. 

 

[Lords of Preyspire]

Well I'm sure it's no consolation but I very much appreciate the time you spent of researching my question, thanks very much. It's was actually reading a bit about the Corinth crusade that prompted my question. I'm pleased at your conclusion as its kind of a best of both worlds out come. I like both the element of independence and a possible element of cohesion. I would love to see a book with some sort of meeting between the primogenitor chapters. A council of chapter masters style event.

[Brother Captain Ed]

It’s become gradually more canon that the successor chapters are more or less still affiliated with their First Founding brothers.  This is true of all the legions. 

 

The Horus Heresy is gradually eclipsing the Age of Imperium as the elements of the Heresy become more and more pronounced.  The Space Marine Legions are a good example of this storytelling shift.  It used to be that the Dark Angels were unique because their secret bound them together in a way that wasn’t present with the other legions.  Then we got Ultra successors deferring to Calgar as first among equals, Scars chapters hunting together, the Last Wall, etc., etc.

 

Space Marines are all brothers.  But now some brothers are a little more brothery than the other brothers.  It’s not unique to the Ultramarines.  The unique part is that so many space marines share Guilliman’s geneseed.  The idea that the Ultramarines are the only loyal legion that could still be a legion really rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

[DogWelder]

The Ultramarine do undertake Legion-scale operations with its successor chapters at times. For example:

 

The Shattering of the Night Lords at Tsagualsa:

 

The entire Ultramarines Legion assembled at Tsagualsa after the Heresy, the last major stronghold of the Night Lords. Novamarines, Genesis Chapter, Howling Griffons, Aurora Chapter, Sons of Orar, Praetors of Orpheus etc. all took part in the operation which saw the Night Lords cease to exist as a cohesive legion and scattered into different warbands for about 10,000 years now. 

 

The Ultramar Campaign:

 

Many of the successor chapters flocked to Ultramar during the invasion by Abaddon and the awakening of Roboute Guilliman. They were central to Utramarine efforts to beat back the Chaos forces assaulting the Empire. Many of the successor chapter's forces followed Guilliman to Terra in his Terran Crusade in fact. A notable example would be that a battlegroup of Novamarine Vindicator tanks were central to Guilliman's escape from the Blackstone Fortress.

 

 

There are also more subtle ways the successor chapters help out. The Genesis Chapter sends fresh Marines to fill in depleted squads or companies after a particularly devastating campaign for the Ultramarines. The Aurora Chapter sends fresh vehicles/ammunition/equipment that needs replacement since they have an excess of said resources. The Novamarines help guard the outer fringes of the Ultima segmentum and usually act as first-responders for many of the 500 worlds that come under attack. The Praetors of Orpheus have a level of technology that is second only to the Mechanicus and surely assists their parent chapter with research into new weapons/vehicles etc. The Patriarchs of Ulixis are renowned for their exceptional bladework and marksmanship, to the point where their Veterans are often seconded to the Honour Guards of the Ultramarines and their Successor Chapters.

[KhorneHunter57x]

It’s not unique to the Ultramarines.

Didn't see it mentioned, but the sons of Dorn have their Feast of Blades, too.

The idea that the Ultramarines are the only loyal legion that could still be a legion really rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

Anything to do with the Ultramarines really rubs some people the wrong way for some reason.

[crazyterran]

Maybe j should paint one or two of my Ultramarines to have a genesis symbol somewhere on their armour? I imagine they wear the heraldry of the Ultramarines while they are seconded... hmm.

[Sugarlessllama]

It might even be the opposite shoulder guard or something.

[Brother Captain Ed]

It’s not unique to the Ultramarines.

Didn't see it mentioned, but the sons of Dorn have their Feast of Blades, too.

The idea that the Ultramarines are the only loyal legion that could still be a legion really rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

Anything to do with the Ultramarines really rubs some people the wrong way for some reason.

So true.

[Sugarlessllama]

You know, haters gotta hate.

[Ascanius]

The first Space Marines ever mentioned in White Dwarf (issue 93) were Space Wolves who were, for some reason, named after members of the Monkees - Brother Tork, Captain Dolenz, Brother Nesmiv, and the psyker Brother Joens.

 

All of which is to say that clearly anyone adding members of the Genesis Chapter seconded to the Ultramarines ought to name them, I dunno, Brother Kohlins, Sergeant Bancs, Captain Gabriyel . . .

[battle captain corpus]

@crazyless, a small Genesis Chapter symbol somewhere on them would work nicely. My suggestion would be on knee armour or greaves.

Opposite shoulder pad may sound cool but remember that's not Codex ;) Unit and squad citation is on the right shoulder pauldron.

 

BCC

[Brother Tyler]

The idea that the Ultramarines are the only loyal legion that could still be a legion really rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

Probably because it would seem either hypocritical or disobedient since the one who effectively disbanded the Legions was the Ultramarines Legion primarch, Roboute Guilliman.

[Brother Captain Ed]

The idea that the Ultramarines are the only loyal legion that could still be a legion really rubs people the wrong way for some reason.

Probably because it would seem either hypocritical or disobedient since the one who effectively disbanded the Legions was the Ultramarines Legion primarch, Roboute Guilliman.

Everyone loves to say "Guilliman forced the primarchs to break down their legions!" but the Ultramarines were far and away the most numerous legion at the end of the Heresy. He paid the price far more than the others.

[Brother Tyler]

No one is arguing that. The point is that the Ultramarines Legion broke into Chapters by order of its own primarch. So it shouldn't go against his wishes and operate in secret as a Legion (or so goes a key argument of those that hate the notion of the Ultramarines Successors as a secret legion).

 

Personally, I disagree with the notion that they are truly a "legion." Many of the Ultramarines Legion Successors cooperate, especially when it comes to the interests of Macragge and Roboute Guilliman (since all, especially the Primogenitors, can look to both as their physical and spiritual birthplaces). I simply see coordination of efforts as allies, not as a gestalt whole.

 

Of course, the return of Roboute Guilliman provides an interesting impetus for change. As "Lord Commander of the Imperium," Roboute Guilliman now exercises some level of control, even if only in a nominal way, over all of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. That, I think, is an interesting point considering his avowed motive for breaking down the legions in the Second Founding. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Ultramarines Legion Successors, or most of them, anyways, kowtowing to the Primarch and the Ultramarines Chapter now that the Primarch has returned.

[Closet Skeleton]

Calgar's 'new' job isn't anything he didn't do for a few centuries after the Heresy anyway.

 

But the point of legion breaking was so that the most marines a single officer turning to chaos would be able to command would be 1000 (well, 1500 odd in the 2nd ed fluff). Joint training exercises and exchange students aren't hypocritical at all.

[Ryltar Thamior]

Calgar's 'new' job isn't anything he didn't do for a few centuries after the Heresy anyway.

 

But the point of legion breaking was so that the most marines a single officer turning to chaos would be able to command would be 1000 (well, 1500 odd in the 2nd ed fluff). Joint training exercises and exchange students aren't hypocritical at all.

Yeah, although be that as it may it *does* appear that there's quite a bit more going on amongst the Ultramarines and their successors than just occasional secondments and training exercises [although, to be fair, that's pretty much what the Hawk Lords, inter alia, seem to do]. Instead, we seem to have a situation wherein the Ultramarines exert serious influence over several of their successors [to the point of actual and overt attempts by at least one of them to align as close as possible to same, featuring explicit veto-power by the Ultramarines for some decisions made by that chapter's own officeholders [Genesis Chapter]], and would seem to have set up a 'political' structure [the aforementioned Court of the Master of Macragge] in order to better maintain ties and perhaps even co-ordinate with their descendants.

 

What this would suggest is that in the [exceedingly unlikely] event of the Ultramarines going rogue [or, perhaps slightly *more* likely, *looking like* they might be about to do so due to having decided that the way the Imperium's run outside Ultramar is mediocre at best and a defence risk a la Astral Claws' motivations at the outset of Badab], it wouldn't simply be a thousand marines involved.

 

Instead, given the size and nature of Ultramar, it would wind up with, quite probably, a fairly decent chunk of 'civilized' Imperial space [i'm not sure if Ultramar is still 500 worlds strong in 40k era?] going with them - along with all the manpower, resources etc. associated. And, not only that, but with the very real possibility that several additional *Marine Chapters* [or, in some cases, substantial parts thereof] might go with them - due, in no smallpart, to hte framework the Ultramarines preside over wherein they're implicitly 'top dog' and exert capacious influence [political, doctrinal, military, prestige-related] over a number of other chapters. [one presumes that all of those representatives at the Court of Macragge from successor chapters aren't there as a purelly goodwill exercise - and instead are quite capable of acting as diplomatic envoys between the Ultramarines and their successors, passing along messages and extending influence in those directions]

 

SOme might argue that the open animosity betwixt the Ultramarines and other Ultramarine successors  with the Minotaurs [otherwise known as hte direct implement of the High Lords of Terra] already demonstrates a situation wherein the Guilliman gene-pool have acted together in effective defiance of Imperial Centre - due precisely to these continuingand strong ties. 

 

Now, strictly speaking, all of this is laaaaaargely within the bounds of hte precepts of the Codex Astartes, this is true. WIth the thus-far somewhat singular exception of the Ultramarines Legion reforming on Tsagualsa to take on the Night Lords, we don't seem to see anything like the same level of Legion-style activity as the Dark Angels seem to semi-regularly engage in. [not least because the Ultramarines don't have a *need* to do this - being much more able to operate iwth other Imperial forces due to having far less to hide, for a start, and therefore not feeling only able to rely on kin]

 

But in terms of the *purpose* of the relevant Codex Astartes statutes, I'd say there is *an* argument that the way the Ultramarines roll these days is heading towards [if not already skirting pretty close to] a violation of the *spirit* of the rules in question. [certainly, there is an interesting question to be posed as to what the degree of difference is between the Black Templars with their five thousand plus marines operating in what's pretty much a non-Codex compliant fashion [although a quick search of 1d4chan suggests that aupparentlythe Codex Astartes [now] *allows* 'Crusading' chapters to maintain well more than the standard thousand marines?] ..and the Ultramarines being able to call upon effectively at least two thousand Marines, no questions asked [which is, again, one of the issues Imperial authorities would have had with Lufgt Huron -c.f the Tiger Claws], as well as who knows how many hundreds or thousands more thanks to their political influence etc. ove their succcessors]

 

So yeah ... they're not Dark Angels or whatever [although come to think of it, aren't there now black library descriptions or something of the Blood Angels winding up having to pulll a similar overt-co-ordination-with-successors stunt?] ... but it *does* seem they've got other primary considerations which override some accounts of why the Codex Astartes stipulates a thousand-Marine limit. 

 

"Hypocrites"? Maybe. I just view it as an addition of greater 'moral depth' and 'characterization' to the Ultras - both things woefully needed, given some of the vaguely ridiculous ways we've seen their uber-allegiance to the Codex depicted in fluff in recent years. 

 

And, as others have said - given the way first founding chapters now seem to operate, in lgiht of the Ultramarines' well-noted political skills and prestige it would almost seem MORE surprising if they DIDN'T manage to pull this sort of thing.