FW SW Upgrades - What if they're not good?

[m_r_parker]

Having some interesting discussion in another thread started as the possible direction of the SW in the future ( LINK ), which quickly turned into the release timeframes of Space Wolf upgrade kits and the general disquiet among the SW community that these are not either already out or soon to be released - I wanted to pose a question without further derailing the original thread.

 

There are a few in this community who are awaiting those upgrades with great expectation, to the point where they're actively delaying the building of any models until those releases come out. It's understandable to a degree to want your force to heavily use these kits, but I've found it just as good to use them more sparingly rather than 'pimping out' every single astartes. However, there's a great deal of expectation around these kits within the community, and as much as I love the FW aesthetic in general they do have an odd misstep. Some are badly executed, others have weird designs, and occasionally you just have miniatures that you just don't like for some reason. Iron Warrior torsos were a big one for me that made little-to-no sense in their design (I still don't understand the star concept), and there's still something in the Sevatar model that just doesn't gel with me. 

 

So, given the expectation around these upgrade kits - what happens if they're not good? What if the design direction isn't what some of the frater here think is right, what are they going to do?

 

Genuinely interested to hear what the SW frater here think about this possibility, or whether this is something that they've even considered.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Nothing will please Space Wolves fans. All the mods know this and are prepared for it.

[Charlo]

Was about to say, I can hear a Melta revving just from the title of the thread....!

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Indeed. Tread very carefully.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

What if the official upgrade kits are not 'good' ??  Whatever that means, 'cause it's totally subjective.

 

Well, d'uh, just convert your own Space Wolves. There's a billion of bits out there for them, more than for any other Legion.

 

Totally obsolete thread.

[Excessus]

The star is a reference to the fact that Perty could see the Eye of Terror as a star in the sky from a young age, is it not?

 

Also, the upgrades will come in due time. I don't have a single AL upgrade kit in my AL force and is quite happy. I've seen plenty of awesome SWs without the upgrades being released, it's not all doom and gloom...

[Lord Blackwood]

Nothing will please Space Wolves fans. All the mods know this and are prepared for it.

I  feel like this sort of dismissive attitude only serves to make fans of the legion feel like their opinions are simply not wanted.

 

If you have a grievance  be it legitimate or not the moderators will  construe it as complaining. 

 

It feels as if as a group  fans of the Vith legion's concerns and criticisms of  what forgeworld has presented / will present us  are irrelevant. 

 

BCK  you in  particular come across as the sort to belittle space wolves players for their opinions.  

 

That being said I am sure the  upgrade kits will be fine ,  and if they arent using other bits has served well up to this point. 

[Skalpynock]

Well they'll serve as basing material alongside dead TS for a Prospero Catastrophe diorama (in the BotL, both these legions end up extinct and expunged due to geno-warp incident).

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

It's a reputation Space Wolves players have earned for themselves, and I'd be more mindful of calling me out for something you don't have all the facts on. Numerous times I have told pissed off SW players that they can be upset and discuss it, but I will not tolerate walleyed bitch fits. And that goes for anything, really, but the simple fact remains that the moderation team in the AoD has had more trouble with Space Wolves players and threads than anything else. Anytime something new is prepared to drop for that particular Legion, we brace for impact and run out the fire hoses, not from a dismissive attitude or trying to belittle those frater or whatever make-believe oppression you think exists here, but from experience. 

[Hfran Morkai]

It does come across as a little antagonistic. Fortunately I'm not one of the hot blooded VIth Legion fans and aren't taking it to heart too much.

 

I can understand the venting of Space Wolves players, hell the book was pushed back in the cycle numerous times with the excuse "balance" (I genuinely couldn't tell you if it's balanced or not as I've not played for years) But they somehow had time and resources to release three other HH books? Whilst I understand it I do tire that most threads involving my favourite Legion have devolved into complaints, which whilst some are indeed valid, are just rehashed. I do want to point out though that a generalising attitude is incredibly disrespectful to those of us who aren't as vocal.

 

We're damn lucky that FW did the Horus Heresy and I'm glad they did. I'm grateful for an actual set of rules I can build my list to, so I can at least plan my force.

 

With regards the upgrades themselves, I'm very sparing with my SW stuff, in my first pack of 10 Grey Slayers I'm building I currently have one SW head and two Bolters from the SW sprue. If anyone is going to get the "Grey Slayer" upgrades it's probably going to be my Veterans and Seekers, Legion Specialists.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I know not all SW players are responsible for the reputation and I greatly appreciate players of any Legion who can discuss issues they may have with FW rules, models, release schedules, etc, without going over the deep end into hysterics.

 

I can understand the venting of Space Wolves players, hell the book was pushed back in the cycle numerous times with the excuse "balance" (I genuinely couldn't tell you if it's balanced or not as I've not played for years) But they somehow had time and resources to release three other HH books?

 

Just gonna say this one time, since this quote centers on one of the major issues we had with SW players in the past, but the rule book is finally out for better or worse and this particular sticking point of how long it took to come out needs to remain in the past.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

Mr Parker, I think your original question is a fair one, given the pretty wide-spread hesitation to commence large scale legion building for the VIth legion. From my point of view I am waiting to see what FW will put out as by and large I prefer the FW aesthetic for previous kits to comparable GW stuff (not a lot of appropriate direct comparisons exist). I would like to see what FW puts out so that I don't go off on a tangent with my own that clashes with or at least doesn't gel well with the aesthetic FW goes for. Same goes for the specialist units but in reality lots of other legions have to deal with this issue and have for much longer than VIth legion has so I think it would be a bit rich for us to get all of our units in the near future. I think a lot of the frustration has stemmed from this uncertainty combined with the fact that the Grey Slayers are our compulsory troop choice unless we use Russ. 

 

Short form: uncertainty about compulsory troops (that all other legions can now build with existing upgrades)

- if I start Slayer squads without FW upgrades and the upgrades are awesome, there will be at least a touch of regret about not waiting

- if I wait for FW upgrades and they are rubbish then at least I can go with existing parts/make my own without later regret

 

Hope that makes some sense, I'm just hungry to get started on my SW force in earnest.

[Charlo]

Nice reply, Hrolf. Well thought out and I see your point.

[Jackalwolf]

I'm going to murderfang all of you.

Now, on a serious note, we've already seen the Contemptor and it's really dope. Don't really think the rest will be anything less than awesome.

Worst case scenario, the whole SoH range is extremely compatible with SW

• Justaerin and Abaddon with eyes of horus shaved off and pelts on (from liber daemonica on ebay) would make for some amazing Varagyr and Varagyr thegn.
• If grey slayers aren't all that good, we already have an amazing upgrade kit and some dope Fantasy Dwarves axes.
• If the Deathsworn are rubbish, I will be melding Wulfen torsos with Kromlech sons of Thor legs and dwarf berserker arms to make some amazing bastards.

I have a backup plan for our three legion specific units that is easy and fun to execute

[apologist]

So, given the expectation around these [space Wolf] upgrade kits - what happens if they're not good? What if the design direction isn't what some of the frater here think is right, what are they going to do?

Genuinely interested to hear what the SW frater here think about this possibility, or whether this is something that they've even considered.

As Unknown Legionnaire says, this is largely subjective. Still, interesting to get some ideas together.

Moving away from Space Wolves specifically, I've had a lot of success with using upgrade packs for different Legions. After all, it's all resin – there's no need to let the label on the box dictate how you use them. The following World Eater and Blood Angel examples are used on my Iron Warriors, for example; and they fit in fine.

As a general rule, the bare heads in particular are interchangeable.

A head from the Emperor's Children pack:

A head from the Imperial Fists pack:

A head from the Salamanders Firedrakes

...and the same applies to non Heresy-era stuff.

A head from the Red Scorpions Librarian pack:

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A little greenstuff can go a long way to alter helms, too:

+++

So, there's plenty of options for the Legions in general. Coming on to the VIth Legion specifically, I've seen some nice Space Wolves done with Imperial Fist heads, and the Iron Warriors pack has a cool Mark III variant that looks quite Saxon. There is also a wealth of specific Space Wolf plastics – many of which are entirely useable.

To look beyond the more common sources, try sourcing old metal Space Wolf models. They can be picked up relatively cheaply second-hand (likely cheaper than packs of heads from FW) and removing a head from a model is a relatively easy conversion.

Some interpretations of the Space Wolves have them more feral-looking, which can make bare heads a bit trickier to source, but there are lots of Chaos options. Chaos Marauder horsemen are a great source of non-mutated heads, and you get some cool shields and weaponry that'd fit in well.

+++

While specialist helms are cool, they can look just as striking scattered about selectively as applied broadly. Even if you don't like what eventually comes, Space Wolf players may find one design in the pack that they like, and can swap or sell the others with people of different tastes. For example, I only used the 'skull head' from the Iron Warriors pack in my army, and swapped the others.

Finally, I'd note that the standard heads are eminently useable for any Legion. Using a variety of armour marks seems fitting for a lot of interpretations of the individualistc Space Wolves.

[Runefyre]

@Hrolf: Well said, you are much more eloquent than I, that is exactly my predicament regarding Wolves upgrade releases.

Honestly I really like the (few) things we've seen from FW, namely the torsos and previewed contemptor. So I'm not worried about how the other kits will turn out, I feel very confident I'll like them. If there's one thing I've never complained about, it's getting new resin crack from FW.

That said this feels a little bit like a bait thread.

Also perhaps this is as good a thread as any, so I'll say my bit. I'm not an angry person IRL, I annoy myself sometimes with how intense I get over little toy soldiers. So I officially apologize if I've ever been over-the-top negative, and will commit to being positive and avoiding threads (such as this one after this post) that seek to antogonize Wolves or are just Wolves fans ing.

[Joe]

I've long been in favour of segregating the Space Wolves fans from the rest of the forum; glad to see Kage is in support of that. ;)

 

Forge World kits have always been hit-and-miss. They've designed some utterly fantastic kits (Manaan's Blades, the Leviathan, Death Korp of Krieg, etc) and some downright awful kits (Iron Warriors torsos, Deredeo, etc); and, much the same as any other miniature designer, they don't hit every ball out of the park. It's an unfortunate truth, and one that the reasonable and sane members of the community have come to accept.

 

Besides, there are plenty of third-party alternatives that are suitable. KFStudio, Kromlech, etc.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

Really good point Apologist. I think some of the "legion specific" helms look awesome and generic enough to be used by most forces. I think it is Dantay (correct me if I'm wrong) who has used some of the IF and IW helms for the Wolves and they look great - I'll probably pinch this sort of option if the FW ultimately disappoint (or quite probably even if they don't; I love some of the IW helms)

[Charlo]

....While their design is a little baffling, I actually quite like the IW torso's.... :P

 

I honestly think the SW heads will blow us away when they eventually appear:

 

Leath masks, lots of bare heads, a few choice helms, topknots... S'all gravy.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Hrolf has a pretty good explanation. I shelved my plans, just getting off the ground at the time, for starting 30k Wolves a couple of years ago now (apart form a bit of stockpiling) when the rumours started of 'every Legion getting basic upgrade bits in the next 6 months or so'. Shame that rumour turned out to be wildly inaccurate, for whatever reason (insert FW conspiracy theory/apathy/badly reported rumour here ). Then the pads and torsos finally dropped, without heads, and my refusal to restart the project became half not wanting to have my work potentially 'invalidated' by the eventual shiny, and half stubborn intransigence. It continually frustrates me that FW haven't seen fit to finish the basic set of SW upgrades yet, the only Legion still lacking in that department (would've far preferred heads to Russ). That said I'm highly likely to be disappointed in the eventual product (I'd like to see MkIV helms, but I'm pessimistically expecting MkIII and bare heads), so having to do my own has always been on the table. I'd rather not, because FW are better at models than me, but if that's the way it goes, oh well. At least, when we finally get the heads, I'll know for sure. Which is all I really want by now.

[Sandlemad]

On the other side of the coin, I can't think of any cases of modellers on the B&C being sour over FW releasing good custom bits for SoH or IF or whoever because their existing tacticals and vets in plain mkII/III/IV are now somehow diminished.

 

I also feel the concerns about a sudden shift in FW SW aesthetics and the quality of the many, many current options are overblown. Just on heads, YMMV but I count at least a dozen of the basic SW pack heads as being perfectly usable for 30k, i.e. sans giant mohawks or with easily removable topknots. All of the thunderwolf heads are rock solid. I'm using a combination of those plastic GW bits, WHFB marauder horsemen heads (there's about 9 brilliant looking ones that I genuinely cannot see FW topping) and spellcrow heads with the prospero plastics to get my hairy fix.

 

Regardless of how the FW stuff looks, a good vaguely norse head will be fine. There is no shift in 'look' that would render them posthumously unsuitable and the examples I have given will inevitably be a lot easier and cheaper to pick up than, say, if you only like one or two of FW's offerings.

 

EDIT: I mean even if you don't like one set of 3rd party SW gear, nearly every company has had a go at 'hairy space knights' heads and pelts, some better than others. FW's offering will just be another in the pile and if they're not to your taste, you've still got tons more options than a TS player looking for subtle and restrained egyptian style gear.

[SW1]

Slapping us all with one brush is like saying all kids are terrible. It's a self fulfilling prophesy as the way you interact causes half the issues. If you think kids are going to cause problems, you look for things as proof and then come down too hard. They then get feelings of frustration at the clearly over bearing attitude and play up. Same with any group of humans who feel persecuted for something about them.

 

If you want to not have the SW collectors/players base play up then moderate the people who act in this antagonistic manner.

 

Back the the OP question ... As a SW collector I think you'll find some of us are sat on 100's if not 1,000+ plastic SW heads "just incase". It's something that has past quite a few of our minds so don't worry about verbalising a really good question. It's just how some misuse these good questions to light fires which should be stamped on. :devil:

 

We might need to convert/kitbash some for a little variety (removing the stupid hair on some) but we have it covered. We look after our own and are likely to help each other out. Some might even be thinking of sculpting and cast some stuff up. ;)

[rendingon1+]

I would worry about errata first.

And yes, wolves have hundreds of compatible and cool bits from 40k (or third party), unlike rest of the legions... This thread is silly.

[Marshal Loss]

This thread should be closed, nothing good is going to come of this. Space Wolf fans aside, there's no basis for discussion over whether a model range 'might be bad'. People will either like them or express their dissatisfaction (likely the latter in this case, as noted by Kage), and either convert their own, buy the new kits or abstain altogether. Simple. It's not like we can even comment on the direction of the range when we haven't seen any WIP's of the kits in question yet.

[betrayer41]

I think i am most excited about the upgrades mostly due to the fact that i think it was mentioned the slayers coming with multiples types of heads, but more importantly wolf themed CCW and best of all despoiler style CCW arms. I spend SOOO much money buying CCW arms it's insane.

 

I know SW players have ALOT of options for bits which i certainly take advantage of. But in all honesty, for me, i really dislike majority of the third party heads/helmets for SW. There are maybe 3 GW heads that i like and i really dont like many of the 3rd party bare heads.

 

I certainly take advantage of Kromlech and others for their armor and what not, its amazing stuff. After seeing the SW bare head renderings from a year or so ago i am really excited to see what FW comes up with.