Reader's Notes

[simison]

Actually, not really. Tempest skips over Guilliman's origins and goes straight into his reformation on Macragge. 

 

As to the latter, it's an interesting point because FW notes that the Emperor went far beyond the edges of the Great Crusade to pick Guilliman up. It may very well be 50 years later before the BotL Great Crusade finally reaches Macragge.

[bluntblade]

That seems right given the location

[Nomus Sardauk]

So which of our Legions should be the one to bring Macragge back into the Imperial Fold? And what kind of place in the Imperium does Macragge have post-compliance?

[bluntblade]

I imagine a lot of it is brought into the fold during Alexandros' tenure.

 

Berserkers therefore would be kept well away, and relatively humane Legions be chosen to operate there.

[MikhalLeNoir]

If they negotiate and talk them into joining i would suggest the Wardens and the other wardens^^. For a more warlike approach lets send some siege experts.

[bluntblade]

There'll be room for all those.

[Nomus Sardauk]

If they negotiate and talk them into joining i would suggest the Wardens and the other wardens^^. For a more warlike approach lets send some siege experts.

For the warlike option the Godslayers could be good for the interactions between the tyranny-hating, equality-for-everyone Koschei and the corrupt Macraggian nobles.

[bluntblade]

We're talking 500 worlds merely claimed by Guilliman over the course of his Legion's conquests. There's a lot to go round.

[Sigismund229]

We're talking 500 worlds merely claimed by Guilliman over the course of his Legion's conquests. There's a lot to go round.

That's Ultramar. I believe Sangi was talking about Macragge itself

[bluntblade]

Ah. To be honest, I suspect any sensible self-serving ruler's response would be "meep" followed by "how can I profit from this?"

[Chief Captain Redd]

As far as the Ultramar system it still could produce unique challenges for the Imperium; What if it was a campaign involving all 20 Legions early on? I know the East is a bit of an expanse point for the Imperium; but it presents a lot of interesting points. Something we could expand upon and do a collection of short stories about.

[bluntblade]

I think even half would be a bit much.

[Sigismund229]

I think even half would be a bit much.

Agreed. Admittedly Guilliman had a springboard for his campaigns in the form of Ultramar and the largest legion but he managed to conquer that area of space with just one legion. Deploying 20 seems like overkill

[bluntblade]

And at any one time there'll be a dozen threats that warrant attention elsewhere

[simison]

There's a whitebox on page 11 that I find interesting. Lorgar's initial reunion with his Legion was actually seen as a positive event since the earlier Imperial Heralds were a bit isolationist, consumed with their war against false faiths. When Lorgar took charge, he brought a new level of brotherhood and integration that the other Legions initially respected before things would go south again. It adds a level of nuance to the Word Bearers and Lorgar, while also adding a clear distinction between the Word Bearers and the Imperial Heralds. 

[simison]

So, in the immediate aftermath of the Dropsite Massacre, Lorgar heads to Calth with nine Glorianas. Some of them are admitted to come from other Legions, but nine? Only three Loyalist Legions were there, and then two can be accounted from the Word Bearers and the World Eaters. Where on earth did the other four come from? 

[Slips]

IIRC, theres never really been a set in stone "There are only ever 20 Gloriannas" since the Solar Auxilia have one, again iirc, meaning others could be constructed.

 

Its just that, they served, more often than not, as Primarch Flagships.

[simison]

I'm aware of the Amphion, but that could have been explained away as one of the missing Legion's Gloriana. Same applies to the Beta. But to suddenly throw in another 4 Gloriana, maybe more. In fact, it's implied that the Raven Guard Gloriana is outright destroyed. 

 

By just randomly throwing in additional Glorianas cheapens them and the narrative. This is the first time I'm actively annoyed with fluff established by FW and suggest we just ignore it. 

[Sigismund229]

Not sure if we're countimg BL books here but in Deliverance Lost it's stated by Corax that he and the rest of the RG heard their flagship die in orbit over the vox. So the RG gloriana was definiely destroyed going off that statement.

 

Maybe Lorgar's three "monster" ships are being counted as Glorianas?

[simison]

Not sure if we're countimg BL books here but in Deliverance Lost it's stated by Corax that he and the rest of the RG heard their flagship die in orbit over the vox. So the RG gloriana was definiely destroyed going off that statement.

 

Maybe Lorgar's three "monster" ships are being counted as Glorianas?

 

Nope. FW explicitly mentions the three King's ships as separate.

[Kelborn]

Lorgar's ships were a completely new class as mentioned in the second FW book, the Abyss class.

 

But with the recently released Black Legion, we now know that

 

the Eternal Crusader is now a Gloriana instead of a refitted battle barge

[Chief Captain Redd]

I think we should make a definition of what a Gloriana truly is in the BoTLverse. Because there are lots of very large ships, with lots of firepower.

Maybe we could make the distinction that Gloriana class ships are specifically retrofitted for the Primarchs'; willed by the Emperor's hand. So there could be more than 20, but not much more depending on fleet needs.

In my opinion, even my own beloved Dragon of Autumn and Leviathan class ships shouldn't be able to punch pound for pound with a Gloriana; obviously the Dragon is awesomely powerful, but it's more than double the length and vastly higher in tonnage than the Glorianas.

[bluntblade]

It's worth noting that the Amphion is not so much the flagship of the Solar Auxilia as the flagship of a Solar Auxilia regiment. They far outnumber the Space Marines.

 

I'm inclined to toe the FW line. A Legion flagship is singular anyway, and they varied quite a bit. The Vengeful Spirit was 20km long and presumably the product of Mars and Saturn, the smaller Iron Blood was comstructed over Olympia. All of them would have been better maintained and upgraded than any equivalent ship in non-Legion hands.

 

Tl;dr - class doesn't matter too much to me.

[simison]

I stand by what I said earlier.

 

So, I was about to make a note that the historian jumpes to 53.M31, when I recalled that I already had made a note earlier. I backtracked and saw that there's a note all the way forward to the 3rd Founding. Out of curiosity, I checked when the canon 3rd Founding was. 

 

...it's the first year of the 32nd Millennium, 001.M32.

 

How old is AK the historian!?  

[bluntblade]

I've always thought of the flagships as uniquely powerful because of the minds guiding the process as they were shaped into soemthing more powerful. There are bigger ships out there, but nothing can really match a Primarch's ship.

 

Flippin' heck. I'm going on the basis that we're "setting" ours a couple of decades after the Insurrection.