Reader's Notes

[Sigismund229]

The Nightguard will not only face off against demons, I'd assume.

Mutants and mortal followers will be more numerous than actual demons. Therefore, I do believe that it would make sense to give them Deathwatch ammo in order to deal with several kind of threats.

 

This kind of ammo is very costly. I'm not sure if it would be possible (logistic wise) to equip every sternguard with it.

 

 

Another thing I'd like to mention.

I've read Guy Haleys Crusaders of Dorn and now, I'm reading his take on Perturabo. He really loves xenos races which are have an affinity to time / dimensional stuff like the Hrud.

 

Did one of our Legions faced off against the Hrud as well? If so, we should consider them to be a more lethal threat than we might have previously. They are a very dangerous and lethal foe, devastating the Iron Warriors ranks decisively. It did cost the IVth Legion more than 30K Legionnaires to conquer three Hrud worlds out of over 50.

 

If we haven't used them by now, they are a potent adversary for an attritional campaign for later use.

Maybe a Steel Legion exemplary battle?

[Talonair]

As far as I can tell the special ammo types are largely types that are available to Seekers and, post-Legions, Sternguard veterans. The exception is the shotguns however none of them are especially advanced (slugs, flechette rounds and dragonbreath rounds have all existed irl for a while)

[simison]

Also, can anyone explain to me why Grey Knight Brotherhoods/companies have a Brother-Captain and a Grand Master? They both command the same number of Knights and don't really seem to have different duties. The Grand Master is supposedly just a 'better' version of a Brother-Captain.

 

I smell Wardian nonesense in this.

[Kelborn]

Those Grand Masters are tasked for specific duties, i.e. archive, fleet and the likes. Furthermore, they form the chapter's High Council.

 

As the GK companies rarely fight as a whole force, "larger" contingents are led by the captains aside from the Grand Master. Thus, the Grand Master can concentrate on other things, for example huge demon incursions, while their second-in-command take, let's say, 4 squads to another "minor" flash point.

 

Think this might be the same reason why we got Primaris Lieutenants these days.

 

To be honest, this is my interpretation of the GK fluff since the Wardian monstrosity aka 5th codex. Regardless, the 5th edition GK codex still got some interesting parts, though.

[Demus Ragnok]

6th edition codex lists these as the Grand Master duties

 

1st Brotherhood- Armory

 

2nd- Fleet

 

3rd- Librarius

 

4th- Augurium

 

5th- Protector of the Sanctum Sanctorum

 

6th- High Seneschal of the Fortress

 

7th- Representative to the Inquisition

 

8th- Recruits

[simison]

The Ultramarines' fluff chapter mentions some battles that are confirmed to have taken place within Seg. Solar, early in the Great Crusade: Liberation of Diurnus and destruction of the Scorvidian xeno-empire. And a partial list of resistant human worlds: Lorin Sigma, Sekel's Landing, and Ne'deble. 

 

On a minor note, apparently the early Ultramarines also had to fight alongside brother Legions. 

[Kelborn]

And they adapted to the strategic preferences of other Legions, i.e. the so-called Nemesis chapter fought alongside the VIIIth Legion, which basically was the canon reason for my Terran Legion being so diversive and consisting of different self-awareness of certain chapters.

[simison]

Another interesting tidbit. In 833.M30, the Great Crusade was primarily divided into three main thrusts that were well past Seg. Solar's boundaries: Horus and the Luna Wolves, the Emperor, and Ferrus Manus and the Iron Tenth. 

 

It's interesting how Leman Russ didn't have his own thrust, even though he would be one of the four (five?) Primarchs active at this early point. It's also a solid point of reference of the canon Great Crusade. After almost 40 years, Seg. Solar was almost under complete control to the point that the cutting edge of the frontlines were in other Segmentums. 

 

If I were to hazard a guess for BotL, there might be only two main thrusts in 833. Alexandros has only been in command of his Legion for maybe a year or two after finishing his tutelage under the Emperor. Since this is pre-Warmaster, his pace is going to be naturally slower as he seeks more lengthy political victories instead of expedient military ones. The two main thrusts would of course be the Emperor and Icarion.

[bluntblade]

Or maybe that's Leman and Icarion, now redacted.

[bluntblade]

Just remember that the Crusade's path wasn't quite as straightforward as it sometimes appears. Based on Ullanor, the Qarith Empire will be close to the Galactic centre

[simison]

Doubtful since Leman didn't have one in canon. And I remember, but the general point remains valid.

 

Also, a new alien name: Tanaril. Details? None, just one quick mention in the UM chapter.

[bluntblade]

I meant maybe Leman and a Lost brother struck out together, and all that information has been excised from the vaults.

[simison]

Another xenos threat: the Khrave. Operating as infestations, they occupy territory on the Eastern Fringe and threatened colonies in canon with the UM 7th Chapter responsible for wiping them out. It's mentioned as being 'costly' for the 10,000 marines, to give an idea what a 'splintered infestation' can do in terms of power.

 

EDIT 2: Another Great Crusade battle opened for those willing to take it. First Portresh Compliance, "recividist" (rebellion?), enemy forces deploy a 'bio-psionic weapon'.

 

EDIT 3: Another Great Crusade battle. Xenos 'Pysbrids' who were void-nomadic. Originally slain by the UM. Also a passing reference to the Uttaus Compliance. No other data on the latter.

 

EDIT 4: GC battle. "...scouring the nine orbital plates of Hydras Reach in 001.M31."

 

EDIT 5: "Yeomanry" is a strange but neat name for a militia/mortal unit.

Edited December 13, 2017 by simison

[simison]

I have finished reading Leman Russ. To sum it up in a single word: bittersweet. And, I feel more assured of Alexandros' chosen role. Even among Primarchs who would remain Loyalists, there can be such a divide in understanding and communication. All of it unintentional and devoid of malice that having a true diplomat who can at least translate the values of one brother to another would have been invaluable in preventing fraternal conflict. 

 

On another note, it seems to me that the legends of the past are always going to have some break with the actual event. It makes me curious what changes we will see in the end of the Heresy.

 

On the flip side, it also brings up the question of what will be the legends of the BotL Primarchs and how they differ from actual events.

 

EDIT 2: GC battle - 899.M30, Eurydice Terminal (Galactic Southwest), Attackers include the Ork Glortian Empire and the Psybrids. Defender was the War Hounds.  

 

EDIT 3: Additional notes, the Orks seem to have an in-built aggression against the Psybrids. Does this suggest that the Psybrids were once a foe of the Ancients that created the Orks? Also, the Psybrids are semi-vaporous.

Edited December 15, 2017 by simison

[simison]

I've finished the first chapter of Guilliman. I'm surprised how heartfelt it ended that first chapter. 

 

The whole Troas campaign is about expunging the guilt the Ultramarines feel over Monarchia. It really hammers home just how distasteful the Ultramarines feel over the incident.

[Kelborn]

Though it is often declared as the weakest one, it does a good job in showing how Roboute struggles with Monarchia, the way of the Destroyer sqauds, his idealism and so on.

[simison]

The only other thing that surprises me is how often Roboute 'grins'. It feels...interesting, given how I write Alexandros.

[simison]

I've finished Guilliman. I have found the ending to be very disappointing. 

 

Essentially, Throas was home to an ancient, advanced human civilization that eventually destroyed itself. There might be a subtle hint at Chaos corruption, but, in the end, Guilliman orders the ruins destroyed. This takes place after most of the novel is spent trying to preserve the ruins. The ending itself lays it on pretty thick that it's a huge foreshadowing to the future Heresy and the grimdark future of 40k, but Guilliman is ignoring the hints that the Imperium is on a similar foundation to the Throas civilization. 

 

A couple of other thoughts. Although only briefly touched upon, there's an interesting question of what distinguishes a chapter master from an excellent captain. 

 

The Orks routinely had Orks who were double the size of space marines. The Ork warlord in the novel towers over Guilliman. It's something to keep in mind when writing Ork battles.

 

Another thing I note is that Orks are only a serious opponent when they're given no dialogue at all. This was also something I've noticed in Helsreach. Which makes them a good opponent for Alexandros, since he's a joker and can play off of them. 

 

One of the ongoing arcs within the novel is a newly-made chapter master being given command of an entirely different chapter than he was in. It's a good source to see what kind of conflict that creates. 

 

Guilliman's views of Destroyers mirrors Alexandros'. Not sure if I needed help writing those future scenes, but now I have a basis to call upon. 

 

I think that about covers it. 

[Kelborn]

That's one of the main reasons, why this book was disliked by most of the community.

 

Haven't read it by myself so my question to you: how is Guiliman written? Does one really get a good insight in his thoughts / view / struggles with Monarchia, Destroyers, etc.?

[simison]

As an intellectual. That's the first word that comes to my mind. The constant emphasis on the back-and-forth of the theoretical and practical is throughout the entire novel. He may be a warlord, but he's a very intelligent warlord and forward-thinking. One of the minor arcs going on is Guilliman trying to teach Marius Gage, Chapter Master Primus, on how to lead the Legion in the absence of Guilliman or how to make a Legion capable of surviving without their Primarch. As mentioned earlier, he likes to grin in this novel. 

 

And he's also living proof that the Primarchs and the Space Marines simply have no way to prevent their emotions from overruling their knowledge or power. From the troubles with the new chapter master of the Nemesis chapter to Guilliman's reaction in the ending, all of these giants are, in the end, still men. 

 

One thing I didn't mention was a section where Guilliman reflects on the differences between himself and Fulgrim, the Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children. I really liked it since both Legions don't specialize in just one aspect in war, but in a wide variety of aspects. In this case, the differences can be summed up as the difference between practicality and aesthetics. When Fulgrim goes to war, he wants to win with a strategy that is both victorious and beautiful. When Guilliman goes to war, he wants sound tactics and victory. 

 

There's a couple of sections in regards to his view of the Destroyers. He honestly struggles to connect with them because he loathes their way of war, but will not outright ban it like Vulkan does. They have a purpose, but because they have so few opportunities to be used, they often feel left out. Guilliman understands this and doesn't like this barrier, but it doesn't change the fact that the Destroyers' way of war does not build and create as he wishes. 

 

Monarchia is really only touched upon at the beginning of the novel. Shame, there might have been a good opportunity to have it show up back in the ending. 

[bluntblade]

It's worth noting that Vulkan did design units to be as devastating as Destroyers, but without such lingering after-effects.

[simison]

There is a **Stormlord** in the Magnus novel!

[Demus Ragnok]

It's worth noting that Vulkan did design units to be as devastating as Destroyers, but without such lingering after-effects.

Yep Pyroclasts.

[simison]

While in the airport and on the flight, I read the entirety of Magnus.

 

I will never again brook a challenge against my interpretation of the Emperor, as seen in Third/Second Son. I've had a couple of people criticize that version of the Emperor as being too friendly and personal. Yet, it lines up exactly with the Emperor we see in Magnus. During their last meeting together, they go on a soul flight around Terra. Throughout the trip, the Emperor is kind, encouraging, friendly, and wise. This is the Emperor that I can see hesitating to strike down Horus. One filled with sentiment. 

 

Granted, this might all fall under "The Emperor is perceived differently from everyone" that GW seems to favour. Regardless, that is a card that can be played both ways. 

 

There are some hard dates in this novel. The Great Crusade officially began in 798.M30. Magnus was found, I believe, 12 years before the Morningstar incident in 853.M30 (though Lexicanum says there's a canon conflict). I believe it's listed that Perturabo was found 4 years before teh same incident, putting him at 849.M30. 

 

And other events are mentioned without dates. By this year, 12 Primarchs had been found. Sanguinius and Magnus have already created the Librarius, but no mention of the Khan. Finally, the Emperor has already switched to the Imperator Somnium. 

 

What is perhaps the most striking thing about the novel (minus the unexpected Stormlord bit) is Perturabo. Only a few years into the Great Crusade, we meet a happier, more idealistic Perturabo. He's able to smile, to joke, and hug. He and Magnus have a strong friendship build on their intellectual pursuits at this time. Furthermore, he's more willing to include flourishes in his architectural creations. Still all practical, but more of his inner artist revealed.

 

As enjoyable as he is, I'm vaguely annoyed by the Iron Warrior officers. I feel like there's a lot of meta-ness going on with them, which makes it harder to just enjoy them as the characters they are here. Forrix in particular comes off as a very interesting character that I'm pretty sure doesn't survive later on. 

 

They mystery and reveal are pretty interesting when it comes to the planet Morningstar. There's a new kind of threat that's explored that I'd like to keep...oh. That threat is in BotL too. That's something to keep in mind. 

 

The ending, given what happens in the events, is slightly confusing. I say slightly because there is a potential in-universe explanation, but if so, it's not executed very well. 

 

Like Guilliman previously, this novel does not end on a happy note. Overall, the man vs. nature conflict is very interesting in trying to imagine the sheer insanity of what's being described. While Magnus' vices are fairly obvious and repeatedly on display, this novel does a good job at hinting at Perturabo's own weaknesses while still showing just what exactly the Great Crusade loses by grinding him down. 

 

Also, Magnus takes a lascannon shot to the chest, no forcefields, and lives. It's impressive. Oh, and this is the incident where Magnus gains the moniker 'the Crimson King'. 

 

Oh, and there's a fascinating idea that using psychic powers will eventually cause residual pain, especially from overuse. Think of it as a spiritual version of muscles cramping. I like it, but the idea is dropped right before the climax kicks in. Something to keep in mind. 

 

There are some excellent lines in this novel. 

 

"Lift, damn you, lift."

 

"A little respect might help," said the Magos. "The Machine knows all. The Machine hears all."

 

"Fine. Lift, damn you, lift. Please."

 

There's an interesting line from Ahriman about how the Thousand Sons accidentally doom themselves in the climax. While the doom is fairly obvious, I'm really curious what would've happened if they hadn't triggered Ahriman's vision. 

 

Perturabo's constant awareness of the Eye of Terror comes up again, and he actually uses it to his benefit in one scene. 

[bluntblade]

I've been meaning to have Alex or Pionus address/consider the matter of interpretation in a story.