8th Edition & BA

[Bartali]

 

 

 

I'm thinking of doing something similar with the sanguinor as warlord. His aura is +1 attack. Auras explicitly affect the character themselves as well if they meet the keywords (rules, pg 179) and are not specifically excluded, so that bumps him to 6A base, same as Dante for 45 less points. Warlord trait for another +1A. SG within 6" get +1A from aura and hit reroll (plasma pistols & melee) because he's warlord. Stick a JP priest in there for +1S on everybody (including priest).

 

If you're feeling particularly nasty, a codex librarian inside 12" can try to cast two powers; veil of time (reroll charge) & might of heroes (+1S, +1T, +1A) on sanguinor or SG. I'd probably be tempted to drop them into cover and plasma pistol them if dropped, as you can only cast veil of time on one of the sanguinor, priest or SG unit which significantly risks splitting up your buffs. Next turn, move up into closer charge range and chop chop city.

 

If you got MoH off on say, the sanguinor; including melee weapons and I've done my sums right; sanguinor would be 2+ hit, S8 (so wounding on 2+ against T4), 8A, -4AP, D3 damage. SG with axes would be 3+ hit with reroll, S6, 3A each, -2AP, d3 wounds and finally priest on S5, 5A inc chainsword.

 

That'd tickle most things I think.

 

Alternatively, given how much damage comes from the characters, if you wanted to keep costs down you could just switch to cheaper jump infantry (assault squad or VV depending upon what weapons you want) to act as ablative wounds.

Would there actually be any benefit from dropping SG in to cover as their is already 2+ and can't be buffed further, right?

 

The benefit is if someone has AP -3 that 2+ save becomes a 5+. If they are in cover that adds +1 it is now a 4+ save instead of 5+. Cover can actually provide benefits in this way, at least as I understand it.

Ah ok makes sense. In that case dropping in to cover, overpowering plasma and charging turn 2 sounds like pretty good tactics

 

 

If you're dropping in turn 1, you'll want to at least attempt a charge turn 1 if you're close enough to fire plasma pistols. There's no point hanging around 12" from your opponent so you can get shot and/or charged yourself in your opponents turn.

[Jbird]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking of doing something similar with the sanguinor as warlord. His aura is +1 attack. Auras explicitly affect the character themselves as well if they meet the keywords (rules, pg 179) and are not specifically excluded, so that bumps him to 6A base, same as Dante for 45 less points. Warlord trait for another +1A. SG within 6" get +1A from aura and hit reroll (plasma pistols & melee) because he's warlord. Stick a JP priest in there for +1S on everybody (including priest).

 

If you're feeling particularly nasty, a codex librarian inside 12" can try to cast two powers; veil of time (reroll charge) & might of heroes (+1S, +1T, +1A) on sanguinor or SG. I'd probably be tempted to drop them into cover and plasma pistol them if dropped, as you can only cast veil of time on one of the sanguinor, priest or SG unit which significantly risks splitting up your buffs. Next turn, move up into closer charge range and chop chop city.

 

If you got MoH off on say, the sanguinor; including melee weapons and I've done my sums right; sanguinor would be 2+ hit, S8 (so wounding on 2+ against T4), 8A, -4AP, D3 damage. SG with axes would be 3+ hit with reroll, S6, 3A each, -2AP, d3 wounds and finally priest on S5, 5A inc chainsword.

 

That'd tickle most things I think.

 

Alternatively, given how much damage comes from the characters, if you wanted to keep costs down you could just switch to cheaper jump infantry (assault squad or VV depending upon what weapons you want) to act as ablative wounds.

Would there actually be any benefit from dropping SG in to cover as their is already 2+ and can't be buffed further, right?

The benefit is if someone has AP -3 that 2+ save becomes a 5+. If they are in cover that adds +1 it is now a 4+ save instead of 5+. Cover can actually provide benefits in this way, at least as I understand it.

Ah ok makes sense. In that case dropping in to cover, overpowering plasma and charging turn 2 sounds like pretty good tactics

If you're dropping in turn 1, you'll want to at least attempt a charge turn 1 if you're close enough to fire plasma pistols. There's no point hanging around 12" from your opponent so you can get shot and/or charged yourself in your opponents turn.

I guess it depends on the risk you want to take, if you fail the charge and get shot up in overwatch and your opponents shooting phase then that's going to hurt, at least in round 2 with your 12' move your going to make the charge for sure. Don't get me wrong I'd much rather be straight in to combat, but 9 inch charge is never a given

[appiah4]

I don't know if this has been discussed before but I'm kind of late to this discussion.

 

Storm Bolters, Rapid Fire 2 24" for 2 pts?

 

yes.

 

Also, what is the consensus on Death Company now?  I feel like Boltgun DC on foot in Rhinos is really the way to go now..

Edited June 8, 2017 by appiah5

[Bartali]

Theoryhammer only, but I think Pistols are the way to go with mounted DC. If you're using your Rhino/Razor aggressively there's a good chance it'll have been assaulted by the time your DC pop out. Pistols allow you to shoot the stuff assaulting your transport. Sticking a couple of Infernus pistols on my mounted DC units for the same reason.

 

Re DC in general - if one unit then jump pack definitely, they're a lot more flexible than mounted ones. If multiple units, then probably a mix of jump and mounted. Again theoryhammer, but I think a mix of jump and mounted would work quite well together.

[Arkhanist]

Theoryhammer only, but I think Pistols are the way to go with mounted DC. If you're using your Rhino/Razor aggressively there's a good chance it'll have been assaulted by the time your DC pop out. Pistols allow you to shoot the stuff assaulting your transport. 

 

If you're thinking of the rule I'm thinking you're thinking of, that's not true, alas. There's a standard rule for open-topped transports - passengers can fire pistols in their shooting phase when their transport is engaged in CC (it was highlighted for dark eldar) - but not rhinos/razorbacks etc. If it does apply to a vehicle, it'll be on its datasheet.

 

In this case, the DC would have to disembark in the movement phase (pg183), in which case they could fire any weapon they like in their shooting phase as they're not in combat themselves. You'd have to be able to get out though; to disembark, you need to be able to be within 3" of the transport (which includes base for flyers) but more than 1" from enemy models - any models which can't do that are slain outright. That applies if you're 'force' disembarked by the destruction of the transport too - plus you have to roll a die for every model that you placed, and any rolls of 1 also slay a model (your choice). You can fall the transport back from melee in your turn of course - but then you can't disembark until your following turn, as it has to be before the vehicle moves.

 

You really want to avoid being caught inside an assaulted transport! On the flip side, if you can pull off a successful infantry assault on an enemy transport carrying something expensive - something which the angels should be good at...

[appiah4]

Nope, not buying anything before the BA get a proper codex or are included in faction SM. I vote with my wallet.

 

Just wanted to chime in and say this is where I stand.

 

I had a chance to look at the Index Imperialis 1, and I really dislike the way it's laid out and how terribly time consuming it is to put together a list or get a sense of what costs what.

 

I spent a good 30 minutes trying to figure out what changed before I gave up.

 

I hate the thing's layout.  With passion.

[Jolemai]

You mean the points separate from the Datasheet?

[Arkhanist]

When I get my copy, I fully intend to make photocopies of the points and stats from the back to refer to when I'm going through the unit cards. Or if it's practical, take a paperchopper to the spine and holepunch/polypocket the loose pages so I can just mix the SM generics & BA specifics together by type, have the points/stats for reference and dump the rest in a folder.

[Spagunk]

I am thinking building your own unit cards is the way to go. Keeping track of all this crap just seems way harder than it used to be (even though technically it is about the same).

 

It's just so funky and backwards. At least in 3rd edition, you knew what the points were for normal line members and just add on for your extra gear.

[Bartali]

 

Theoryhammer only, but I think Pistols are the way to go with mounted DC. If you're using your Rhino/Razor aggressively there's a good chance it'll have been assaulted by the time your DC pop out. Pistols allow you to shoot the stuff assaulting your transport. 

 

If you're thinking of the rule I'm thinking you're thinking of, that's not true, alas. There's a standard rule for open-topped transports - passengers can fire pistols in their shooting phase when their transport is engaged in CC (it was highlighted for dark eldar) - but not rhinos/razorbacks etc. If it does apply to a vehicle, it'll be on its datasheet.

 

In this case, the DC would have to disembark in the movement phase (pg183), in which case they could fire any weapon they like in their shooting phase as they're not in combat themselves. You'd have to be able to get out though; to disembark, you need to be able to be within 3" of the transport (which includes base for flyers) but more than 1" from enemy models - any models which can't do that are slain outright. That applies if you're 'force' disembarked by the destruction of the transport too - plus you have to roll a die for every model that you placed, and any rolls of 1 also slay a model (your choice). You can fall the transport back from melee in your turn of course - but then you can't disembark until your following turn, as it has to be before the vehicle moves.

 

You really want to avoid being caught inside an assaulted transport! On the flip side, if you can pull off a successful infantry assault on an enemy transport carrying something expensive - something which the angels should be good at...

 

 

No, not at all thinking of firing when embarked. When disembarked, Pistols can shoot at opponents who might be engaged (within 1" of the transports).

Getting blocked in is a thing, but that's what the jump pack units are there for ;)

[Charlo]

Battlescribe people :P

[Bartali]

I am thinking building your own unit cards is the way to go. Keeping track of all this crap just seems way harder than it used to be (even though technically it is about the same).

 

It's just so funky and backwards. At least in 3rd edition, you knew what the points were for normal line members and just add on for your extra gear.

 

I'm hoping GW have had the foresight to have a day one app to manage all of this stuff. Something that tracks wounds and automatically changes the stat line for those with variable stats would be nice in addition to an army builder

[CaptainHelion]

Lots of postit notes, for me.

[Silverson]

 

Theoryhammer only, but I think Pistols are the way to go with mounted DC. If you're using your Rhino/Razor aggressively there's a good chance it'll have been assaulted by the time your DC pop out. Pistols allow you to shoot the stuff assaulting your transport. 

 

If you're thinking of the rule I'm thinking you're thinking of, that's not true, alas. There's a standard rule for open-topped transports - passengers can fire pistols in their shooting phase when their transport is engaged in CC (it was highlighted for dark eldar) - but not rhinos/razorbacks etc. If it does apply to a vehicle, it'll be on its datasheet.

 

In this case, the DC would have to disembark in the movement phase (pg183), in which case they could fire any weapon they like in their shooting phase as they're not in combat themselves. You'd have to be able to get out though; to disembark, you need to be able to be within 3" of the transport (which includes base for flyers) but more than 1" from enemy models - any models which can't do that are slain outright. That applies if you're 'force' disembarked by the destruction of the transport too - plus you have to roll a die for every model that you placed, and any rolls of 1 also slay a model (your choice). You can fall the transport back from melee in your turn of course - but then you can't disembark until your following turn, as it has to be before the vehicle moves.

 

You really want to avoid being caught inside an assaulted transport! On the flip side, if you can pull off a successful infantry assault on an enemy transport carrying something expensive - something which the angels should be good at...

 

 

 

what do you mean by (which includes the base for flyers)? as far as i know its any part of the transport and the base is not part of the transport only the hull of the model?

[Karhedron]

Also, what is the consensus on Death Company now?  I feel like Boltgun DC on foot in Rhinos is really the way to go now.

Given the price of transports, I am actually thinking Jump Packs may be better and smallish squads. Given that dropping them in from Reserves is now reliable, that might be better than weathering shooting.

 

3 squads and Lemartes all dropping in 9" from the enemy and trying to charge. With his reroll, you have almost a 50% chance of each squad rolling a 9+ for their charge distance.

[Arkhanist]

 

 

what do you mean by (which includes the base for flyers)? as far as i know its any part of the transport and the base is not part of the transport only the hull of the model?

 

 

 

 

Rules, Page 176 sidebar under tools of War:

Distances are measured between the closest points of bases you are measuring to and from.

If the model does not have a base, measure from the closest point of the hull instead.

 

A Wave Serpent has the rule "Hover Tank" dictating that measurements are from hull rather than base.

However stormravens have no such rule. And they have a base.

 

So all measurements for vehicles for movement, disembarking, range of weapons both incoming and outgoing are measured to and from their base if they have one.

 

I did see this on the facebook 40k community Q&A page, but I can't find the link right now.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Silverson]

 

 

 

what do you mean by (which includes the base for flyers)? as far as i know its any part of the transport and the base is not part of the transport only the hull of the model?

 

 

 

 

Rules, Page 176 sidebar under tools of War:

Distances are measured between the closest points of bases you are measuring to and from.

If the model does not have a base, measure from the closest point of the hull instead.

 

A Wave Serpent has the rule "Hover Tank" dictating that measurements are from hull rather than base.

However stormravens have no such rule. And they have a base.

 

So all measurements for vehicles for movement, disembarking, range of weapons both incoming and outgoing are measured to and from their base if they have one.

 

I did see this on the facebook 40k community Q&A page, but I can't find the link right now.

 

 

good catch but the rule for disembarking transports states that you measure from the transport specifically, to me the rules contradict each other and as the one in the tools of war section is more of a general rule where as the rule for disembarking is very specific to the models leaving the transport i believe it takes priority. 

[Jbird]

 

Also, what is the consensus on Death Company now? I feel like Boltgun DC on foot in Rhinos is really the way to go now.

Given the price of transports, I am actually thinking Jump Packs may be better and smallish squads. Given that dropping them in from Reserves is now reliable, that might be better than weathering shooting.

 

3 squads and Lemartes all dropping in 9" from the enemy and trying to charge. With his reroll, you have almost a 50% chance of each squad rolling a 9+ for their charge distance.

I have to agree with you on jump packs over transport. As for weapons I was thinking Plasma pistols would be best but now boltguns and chainswords might work well, drop in and rapid fire then charge with the extra chainsword attack, means a lot of shots and attacks straight after landing

[Arkhanist]

 

good catch but the rule for disembarking transports states that you measure from the transport specifically, to me the rules contradict each other and as the one in the tools of war section is more of a general rule where as the rule for disembarking is very specific to the models leaving the transport i believe it takes priority. 

 

 

I don't see them in conflict per se; reading the start of the transport section, transport is just shorthand for 'model with the transport keyword' - so transports are treated the same as other models (all measurements from base edge if it has one, otherwise hull, bar datasheet specifics). If you read it as measure from transport = measure from hull, then obviously they are in conflict. Under that interpretation though, anything on a flyer base taller than 3" has to park near a high building or have its disembarking passengers go splat when their bases can't be placed less than 3" from the hull! 

 

I suspect it'll get officially FAQ'd. Flamers within 8" of the base autohitting flyers is another oddball result of the rules - and of course, without fire arcs, flyers can fire behind themselves too, and tanks without bases can measure (and fire) all weapons from any part of the hull.

[Quixus]

I don't see them in conflict per se; reading the start of the transport section, transport is just shorthand for 'model with the transport keyword' - so transports are treated the same as other models (all measurements from base edge if it has one, otherwise hull, bar datasheet specifics). If you read it as measure from transport = measure from hull, then obviously they are in conflict. Under that interpretation though, anything on a flyer base taller than 3" has to park near a high building or have its disembarking passengers go splat when their bases can't be placed less than 3" from the hull!

 

I suspect it'll get officially FAQ'd. Flamers within 8" of the base autohitting flyers is another oddball result of the rules - and of course, without fire arcs, flyers can fire behind themselves too, and tanks without bases can measure (and fire) all weapons from any part of the hull.

That's what happens when you try to dumb down rules that haven't been properly written in the first place.

[Sun Reaver]

https://youtu.be/gn4MmOCab9w

 

That's a link to Imperium 1 Index page by page. BA start at the 32:10 mark.

[durdle-durdle]

So for one point more than a plasma pistol is a grav pistol. Lower strength but d3 wounds against anything with a 3+ or better save. I think the plasma would be better on like captains who can overcharge and reroll 1's, but on normal guys, the grav might be better.

[Calistarius]

So for one point more than a plasma pistol is a grav pistol. Lower strength but d3 wounds against anything with a 3+ or better save. I think the plasma would be better on like captains who can overcharge and reroll 1's, but on normal guys, the grav might be better.

Perhaps in some situations. The grav pistol is only Strength 5 though, which isn't as good as it once was with all the Toughness 6+ running around. That's why I swear by magnets and tackle box trays.

[durdle-durdle]

A fair point. However, s5 still wounds t6-10 on 5's. S7 wounds t8-14 (idk if anything like that exists) on 5's. So grav is only worse against t5-7. So grav is more effective against heavy armored infantry (characters) and heavy tanks (leman russes/ land raiders). Plasma is better against low toughness (t3), walkers, and light tanks. So it's kind of a "whichever you like", which is great. Honestly a mix could be good.

[Xenith]

A fair point. However, s5 still wounds t6-10 9 on 5's. S7 wounds t8-14 13 (idk if anything like that exists) on 5's. So grav is only worse against t5-7. So grav is more effective against heavy armored infantry (characters) and heavy tanks (leman russes/ land raiders). Plasma is better against low toughness (t3), walkers, and light tanks. So it's kind of a "whichever you like", which is great. Honestly a mix could be good.

 

Toughness double strength is a 6+ to wound, right?

 

The difference is that grav wounds T7 on a 5+ while plasma wounds it on a 4+, or a 3+ if you overcharge.