8th Edition Guard Discussion

[Captain_Krash]

Damn your right Thoridon...I've legit been positive about every change so far except this one. But I just don't see how rolling a D6 for the amount of hits...and then having to roll to hit most likely a 4+ although I we haven't seen the Leman Russ stats yet just "assuming". Then we have to wound which most things will be on a 3+ right? We don't ignore saves anymore either so most armies will still get a save.

 

Not trying to be doom and gloom I'm just not seeing this being a positive change in the slightest, I knew waiting on building 12+ leman russes would pay off.

 

(But also...maybe there will be some sort of special rule for when leman russes are in a formations or something. Or maybe vehicle orders again)

 

Krash

[duz_]

I think the Battle Cannon profile (as well as my assumptions about the Wyvren) are out of context

We may find that although the LBRT is worse against hordes, it improves against heavier targets.

Which although is a change maybe they have improved the Nova Canon and Punisher against those targets, which gives all the tanks a more specific role, albeit different to how were used to dealing with them.

In that context I don't mind the nerf to the Battle Cannon, especially when on a positive note its no longer ordinance, meaning sponsons are useful again! :)

 

The Vanquisher could be S9 + with D6 wounds, which really would make it a tank / heavy target hunter :) (if mine would ever hit that is...)

[HenricusTyranicus]

I do think that with actually being able to use heavy bolters against horde targets, the Russ is in just as good a position as before, if not better.

[Captain_Krash]

True maybe I just need to view it as it's changing it's role. I always considered it the work horse of the Imperial Guard, the all rounder tank. Perhaps it's role isn't really changing just becoming more narrow. Clearly as it stands so far it looks to be great against vehicles(potentially terminators/multi wound models) now. So maybe it isn't so bad as we have better anti-infantry variants as well. I'm sure points will be dropping across the board for most of IG units so perhaps this isn't so bad after all.

 

Krash

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Captain Krash, I don't know if this will make you feel better, but my friend who doesn't play IG but has faced my vanilla Russes many times is pooping his pants over that new profile. I guess you'd say he's overreacting and it's not that good, but if IG players are upset that it's not powerful enough and non-IG players are upset that it's too powerful ... then GW probably got it about right. 

 

Seems like the vanilla Russ is not going to be so great against basic troops, but as you say, should have an increased role against monstrous creatures, stuff with 2 wounds (terminators?). 

 

And as I've said to others, how the new points shake out will be the great equalizer. Right now we're seeing all this stuff in a vacuum with no reference to how much it costs to put it on the tabeltop.

[Zectz]

I think the Battle Cannon change is overall better. It gives much more dang potential against single multi wound models like monsterous creatures. And with the change to Armour penetration to being a modifier, we are better and worse against various units.

 

So space marine tacticals will get a 5+ save now in the open or a 4+ in cover. But vs terminators/meganobz/riptides/broadsides etc they get a 4+ save in the open and 3+ in cover. This is a pretty big deal I think.

 

The battle cannon just got a lot better against 2+ Armour and multi wound models/monsterous creatures with the -2 and the D3 damage per wound. Against monsterous creatures currently a battle cannon can only take off 1 wound a turn but now it's potential is very high. Yes these creatures have got a wound increase as well, but I think the increase is more significant in the Weapon profile than in the wound profile.

 

Only problem I see is actually getting hits off. We know that vehicles moving will incur a -1 to hit for all weapons instead of having to snap fire. But then also the tank can fire all its sponson weapons more reliably. If we move, you'll be getting D6 shots that hit on a 5+ as well as your side sponsons. Not that reliable it seems...

[Captain_Krash]

Maybe wishlist for a Lumbering Behemoth special rule that will ignore penalties to weapons when moving?

Krash

[Zectz]

Yeah but they already said in the shooting phase article:

 

"Heavy weapons are worth talking about too. These no longer snap fire if you move, and instead they have a flat -1 to hit modifier for moving units. This applies to all models with heavy weapons, vehicles included."

 

So that tells me the Leman Russ can move and fire all its weapons with -1 to hit. Unless there is a specific rule on the Leman Russ profile on release that limits this. We know Chimeria for example will be able to fire both multi laser/heavy Bolter on the move just with a -1 to hit.

[HenricusTyranicus]

It's still totally possible that the Russ will have the heavy vehicle type, and ignore movement effects on shooting.

[WarriorFish]

Don't forget that means a moving Russ is hitting on a 5+, so effectiveness may suffer greatly there unless we get a nice "stable platform" style rule as Henricus muses. I'll miss splatting vehicle parks with my templates though!

[Captain_Krash]

There seriously needs to be something they haven't shown us yet for the standard variant Leman Russ. It just does not look realistically playable...Unless the tank becomes like 100pts before upgrades or something.

 

 

Especially seeing the averages on targeting a Dreadnought...makes me sick.

 

 

Krash

[Beams]

So, I posted this in the news and rumors, but a stationary Russ is looking brutal. About 50% of the time you will be doing 3+ damage vs a dreadnought in a single round of shooting.

 

A stationary Leman Russ Battletank, loaded out with a Lascannon, two Heavy Bolters and a battle cannon vs a dreadnought, 1000 trials.

 

0 damage 193 times

1 dmg 163

2 dmg 153

3 dmg 135

4 damage 102

5 damage 64

6 damage 82

7 damage 40

8 damage 27

9 damage 21

10 damage 10

11 damage 4

12 damage 4

13 damage 0

14 damage 1

15 damage 1

 

 

OBSERVATIONS:

The main battle cannon tends to add semireliable base damage

The heavy Bolters add about 1-2 damage

The Lascannon is wildly unpredictable and misses more than anything else, but also adds the most damage.

This tank is also fully functional 3 feet away from it's target.

There's about a 6% chance to wipe a dreadnought out in a single. So, it's like rolling a twenty in DnD.

There is also a 19.3% chance or rolling a 1-4 on a d20, that the leman Russ doesn't do any damage at all.

 

This also means that a leman Russ vs a T4 Armor 3+ charachter is going to be brutal.

 

 

edit: and a leman Russ is fairly tanky, with a high toughness and a decent save, making it a powerful weapon platform that is resilient and hard to remove.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Glad to see lascannons won't change much this edition LOL

[Captain_Krash]

Thank you Beams thats the Math I needed to see. Add to that fielding more than one and thats seriously a decent weapons platform 

 

Krash 

[Indefragable]

I think the Battle Cannon profile (as well as my assumptions about the Wyvren) are out of context

We may find that although the LBRT is worse against hordes, it improves against heavier targets.

Which although is a change maybe they have improved the Nova Canon and Punisher against those targets, which gives all the tanks a more specific role, albeit different to how were used to dealing with them.

In that context I don't mind the nerf to the Battle Cannon, especially when on a positive note its no longer ordinance, meaning sponsons are useful again!

The Vanquisher could be S9 + with D6 wounds, which really would make it a tank / heavy target hunter (if mine would ever hit that is...)

I think it makes the Battle Cannon more versatile....which is a good thing for the weapon meant to be the "all-rounder" of the LR family. I am going to guess that Wyverns will be great against hordes, but worse against other targets. As others have pointed out, the Nova Cannon could be better splash damage as well and with heavy bolters (and presumably other weapons) being better over all, the splash damage is probably not going to be missed.

...especially when a 50man platoon can put out 200 lasgun shots!

[Shamansky]

I'm afraid the 8th edition is going to be the :cuss dakka era

[WarriorFish]

It does seem that shooting is potent, but I think we're still missing some details from combat? There's always next year's review of the rules ;)

 

I'll reserve final judgement on the MBT Russ when we know its full rules - and points!

[NatBrannigan]

I know it's hard not to jump to conclusions but it's worth not being to upset / happy about anything until we see the full rules and the compilation codex's. In the main threads I love how opinions are swinging wildly on a daily basis. So far Horde armies are great, really overpowered actually. But Hordes are going to be killed far to easily to the extent that Orks are now unusable! At the same time Dreadnaughts are now almost impossible to kill but a single Battlecannon shot will remove one no questions asked. Then there are the useless invincible characters who are good because challenges are gone, but bad because they can't join units and useless because challenges are gone!

 

As always we Guard commanders seem to be more level headed so I'm taking refuge here. It's all about points for me, I thought most Guard units were useful in 7th but some were really poorly costed points wise. LRBT's and LRDemolishers getting slowly more expensive while slowly getting worse for instance. If Bullgryns weren't so expensive they'd be absolutely fine.

 

It's fine everyone saying that every Twin Linked / combi-weapon toting unit is now amazing but if the points go up appropriately... I guess really we just have to wait and see.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I agree whole heartedly with everything you wrote in your last post NatBrannigan.

 

The IG/AM forum has always been the best for many reason and the level headedness and lack of chicken little attitude is always refreshing.

[WarriorFish]

Barring some extremes anything can work if the price is right, but we're going to need to wait some time before we get a sniff of point values it seems.

 

I'm expecting points to be near the end, so we might end up just getting the whole lot around then anyway. That's why I'm itching for the faction bits - points are points and we can hope they're a better reflection of some units and upgrades, but the meat is what our armies can do! It's all very well knowing we have seven orders which auto pass (Vox for increase range?) but without seeing what they all do we have little to chew...

[zero88]

Have they revealed how that damage mechanic works? Like would a melta that hits and wounds, would it be a save then assuming it's unsaved it's D6? Or is it D6 and each is saved separately? I would think the former

[NatBrannigan]

It's the former indeed.

 

the example they use is that if you fire a Lascannon at a squad of guardsmen. Hit, wound and roll a 6 for damage, that means private Jenkins (poor Private Jenkins...) dies horribly from 6 wounds. It doesn't mean that 5 of his mates die from severe sympathy pains as well.

[zero88]

Ohhh gotcha, so that prevents people from spamming them for horde killers

[Cap'm Heckus]

I may be miss-mathing here but wouldn't the change to twin-link make the wyvern 8d3 hits? It does 4 small templates re-rolling now (2 per gun and 2 guns). If the re-roll on each template translates to another d3 hits...

 

Unless I'm wrong that's 8 to 24 shots per volley per tank. Average of 16 shots and 8 hitting?

[Captain_Krash]

Your math is correct, and would be epic but I'm sure that tank is going to change entirely

 

Krash