Khornestar Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Semi-glad I'm not the only one who got that impression. Major disappointment, and really the first time I'm let down with 8th. Units that I could use in the last edition are gone, as is practically all the flavor. There's no point to use the Renegades list if I'm playing pure Guard. Very limited options, boring replacements, worse ballistic skill... they really phoned the Renegade section in. I don't even feel like this is a case of seeing a very brief first impression and not seeing the full picture. On the heels of all the thought and creativity from the awesome FW chaos book, this one is mostly the most lazy attempts to copy and paste rules and stats from the previous edition and just trim away anything that required thought to have a place in 8th edition. I'll let this be the final part of my rant. I don't want to turn into a total whiner when things didn't turn out the way I wanted them. So much potential in this exciting new edition squandered on an army list lamer than we had in the last edition. Oh well, I'm sure I'll use it now and then. I'll probably run my units as loyalist Guard wearing traitor skin. I'll try to digest it now to discern what if any options/combos are good. More later. Edited June 23, 2017 by Juggernut Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spafe Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 So not having seen it yet, is there still a bloody handed rever type thing for using renegade grenadiers? I kinda built my army around that.... Fearing the worst atm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Nope, no Bloody Handed Reaver. Only covenants, and then only if you bring a renegade commander AND make him your warlord. The non-Slaanesh covenants are all pretty weak. Tzeentch is still over watching on 5's. Khorne +1 strength on the charge. Slaanesh rolls 2d6 when advancing and 3d6 when charging, discard the lowest. Nurgle is 6+ invulnerable against attacks of S4 or less. Slaanesh is the clear winner, and I guess Tzeentch can be half-decent situationally. All units with covenant in the keywords get the buff. No access to the Brass Scorpion or Blood Slaughterers, nor hot-shot lasgun upgrades. Though the former 2 are possible using the CSM FW book anyway, so I guess they have them indirectly. Edited June 23, 2017 by Juggernut Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spafe Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) thats a shame, looks like my army jsut became a reskinned guard army then, rather than a renegades and heretics... and it took me ages to get a copy of IA13 too! ho hum Thanks for the quick reply though dude! Edited June 23, 2017 by spafe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Literally the only benefit I can see in the 8th list over the 7th is R&H can be run alongside CSM as allies much more easily, because the R&H commander doesn't really need to be the warlord anymore given there are no devotions. Of course that came at the cost of losing all the unique and fun devotions we use to have access to, so I definetly don't think it was worth the cost. Likely that I won't be using an independant R&H list anytime soon, just use them as allies for CSM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart1223 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Fingers crossed that we get an actual legitimate list in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart1223 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 The Malefic Lord looks to be a decent option. The R&H powers don't seem to be too terrible, with warp flux being a decent way to get some mortal wounds. Unnatural Vigor, while it sounds good in theory, has an obnoxiously high warp charge value (10!) for a short ranged power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Cato Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I agree that this book sucks, but maybe we can try to bring some positivity up in here? List of things we can do that regular IG can't: Slanesh covenant's movement <35 point 2 sniper maraduer teams <60 point lascannon disciple squads (bs 3+) 8" movement mutants (there are a lot of downsides to that random roll though) Renegade command squad taking offering their LD to everything on the table That 10 cost power is supposed to be cast by the 5 man HQ squad, in which case you need an average roll on 3d6. It's worth at 6" range needs to be assessed though. I find it very odd and lazy that our commander offers NO buffs to nearby things Khornestar 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart1223 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 The Commander doesn't even have the Character keyword, so I don't see me using him as he'll be too easy to kill. I am floating an idea of using a Command Squad with the Banner of Hate and maxed out Cultists with pistols and Brutal Assault weapons backed by a Psyker Coven casting Unholy Vigor. gwarsh41 and Khornestar 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 I imagine the lack of the character keyword is an oversight. The coven idea is a decent one, if a bit unreliable given warp charge 10. Flooding the table with mutants could be amusing, though. I actually like the Brutal Ogryns, if nothing else. At least they can ride around deployed in their own Chimera this time around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGibs Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Half the characters missing the 'Character' keyword and the fact that none of the renegade units can even ride in their own transports (which can still only carry AM units) is indicative of the shoddy pass on these two new indexes. I get that they needed to get these things out the door quickly, but comon Forgeworld... Edited June 23, 2017 by McGibs ThatOneMarshal 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I actually like the Brutal Ogryns, if nothing else. At least they can ride around deployed in their own Chimera this time around. Yeah ogryns seem half decent now, I'd consider taking them. There is no doubt that our psykers are improved, certainly a use for them now. Problem is those are about it for the good changes, everything else is pretty lackluster. Khornestar 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 RIP Renegades and Heretics 2017. We thought they would finally fix you by correcting all the typos and buffing the bad units - guess the joke was on us. Thanks for nothing, Forge World! On the bright side, IG is very strong, so if you are okay with no orders, you can cherry pick the FW IG stuff into your Chaos armies now. Some earthshaker batteries, psyker HQs, a rapier battery, and a few mortars could be useful behind a wall of Typhus poxwalkers. Lord Asvaldir 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 You really hit it on the spot there Lagrath. Plenty to complain about with the old list, but at least it was unique and felt a little different from guard. Now the list is just a bad guard army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart1223 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 So the way I'm leaning now, I'll be taking these guys as a spearhead Detachment as artillery support for my Red Corsairs. Probably take at least one Lascannon heavy weapon squad (23 each). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 Artillery support seems to be the main benefit these guys offer a chaos list. And mutant horde bodies, I guess? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrim Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Got my digital version last night, wow did FW ever fail hard on this one. Asvaldirs summary is correct weve just got poor quality Guard here. NOTHING to replace the loss of devotions, or in lieu of orders. How do they figure a BS5/+6 save (so essentially no save) Militia man equates to a Guardsman points wise? Who is taking HW squads that have worse aim than Grots? Cheaper artillery/vehicles used to be the thing to offset poor troop quality - gone. The lack of character keywords on Commanders and Enforcers (no more buffs like combat stims either) tells me they couldnt be bothered to proof read their stuff. It reeks of something scrabbled together in a couple hours. Lord Asvaldir and gwarsh41 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 My initial inclination is something like this: 1x Typhus 1x Noxius Plaguebringer 1x Death Guard Daemon Prince, wings, claws 8x Malefic Lords 20x Poxwalkers 20x Poxwalkers 20x Poxwalkers 18x Poxwalkers 5x Plague Marines, 2 blight launchers 5x Plague Marines, 2 blight launchers 5x Plague Marines, 2 blight launchers 6x Earthshaker Carriages Hide all the characters inside the zombie horde and spam Smite and one or two unique powers. Plague Marines shoot blight launchers and bolters from behind. Earthshakers are in the back and can shoot anything on the board (use the 18 zombies to screen them from backline enemy units if you need). Daemon prince gives all the zombies and Plague Marines reroll 1s to hit. Bell guy helps zombies and Typhus move faster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrim Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Half the characters missing the 'Character' keyword and the fact that none of the renegade units can even ride in their own transports (which can still only carry AM units) is indicative of the shoddy pass on these two new indexes. I get that they needed to get these things out the door quickly, but comon Forgeworld... They can actually, note the top right corner on the first page of the section outlining keyword changes. The character thing sucks pretty hard i agree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart1223 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 They can't ride in chimera's unfortunately. The rules page specifies that RENEGADES & HERETICS replaces the <REGIMENT> Keyword. ASTRA MILITARIUM is a separate keyword. The chimera entry specifies that it only carries ASTRA MILITARIUM INFANTRY. So by, RAW, you can take them in a list, but none of the R&H specific infantry can ride in them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrim Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) They can't ride in chimera's unfortunately. The rules page specifies that RENEGADES & HERETICS replaces the <REGIMENT> Keyword. ASTRA MILITARIUM is a separate keyword. The chimera entry specifies that it only carries ASTRA MILITARIUM INFANTRY. So by, RAW, you can take them in a list, but none of the R&H specific infantry can ride in them.Ah i see what youre saying now, the proper statement would be (replace all references to Astra Militarum to Renegades and Heretics). Lol, again what drunk is doing their proof reading (if any). Well i feel like i wasted a few hundred dollars, oh wait.... Edited June 23, 2017 by Akrim Lord Asvaldir 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) I hope FW can shift some of its Horus Heresy work ethic and resources over to 40k soon and update these books, because the Renegades and Heretics 8th army is the worst and laziest thing FW has ever produced (which is saying something, considering that IA:13 and IA: Vraks were both riddled with typos and omissions that desperately needed errata that never got published). The army lost the few interesting rules and units it had, what it kept got worse and more expensive, and now almost everything is a worse LD and BS version of the Astra Militarum equivalent, except without orders. And there are tons of mistakes (missing character keywords, can't ride in transports, some unit rules missing, etc.). Whatever intern wrote the R&H rules for 8th must have been drunk as heck. This publication makes no sense at all. Edited June 23, 2017 by Lagrath Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) But one thing, right, under the new faction code words, we can take any chaos thing, right? We actually lost khorne daemon engines or noise marines or similar, they can all be in a <chaos> battle forged army right? Chaos Marines, renegades, renegade knights, dark mechanicum, eyrine cults, titans and chaos daemons can all mix, right, and it be ok? So this lazy list at least allows AM filler, tanks and planes to support our more killy traitor forces in creative or fluffy combinations? Or have I really misunderstood how 8th works? Edited June 23, 2017 by Petitioner's City Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwarsh41 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) So if we look past the Chimera wording, and assume when it says AM units, we can replace that with R&H units. Chaos spawn for R&H are infantry. Not only does that mean then can get into a chimera, they can also climb levels of ruins. I'll be running a spawn party bus, a malefic lord nuke tank (5 of those in a chimera? ooooooh that is some pain) and who knows what else is worth taking... brutes compete with plague drones and poxriders, but the power drill is awesome. My biggest peeve? NO MORE MACHARIUS TANKS for renegades. My Omega is a dust collector now. But yeah, super :cussty that we kept our lack of armor and BS/WS, but gained points. All for what? The ability to be huge units? Oh yeah, Renegades and heretics cannot summon aligned daemons. I was really hoping that I could use an enforcer or malefic lord to summon scabreithrax. Edited June 23, 2017 by gwarsh41 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elazar The Glorified Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I'm not seeing why the Malefic Lord can't summon daemons... He's a Character and has the Chaos keyword. The Renegade Commander technically can't with the keyword error but.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333361-8th-a-new-day-for-renegades/page/4/#findComment-4794991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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