8th: A New Day for Renegades?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Marauders seem interesting. 5 man unit with 2 Sniper Rifles and Stalkers seems to have some potential for only 34 pts.

 

We have huge squads and if Enforcers were actually Characters, they could live long enough to do their job and avoid morale issues. Coupled with the fact that you could have huge squads with lots of attacks, that might be meaningful, but not right now. Not holding my breath for the FAQ, especially since one was promised and never delivered last edition.

[Blackheart1223]

The auto choice for me right now is large Squads of mutants with no upgrades. Cheaper than Cultists.

[El_Dicko]

But one thing, right, under the new faction code words, we can take any chaos thing, right? We actually lost khorne daemon engines or noise marines or similar, they can all be in a <chaos> battle forged army right?

 

Chaos Marines, renegades, renegade knights, dark mechanicum, eyrine cults, titans and chaos daemons can all mix, right, and it be ok? So this lazy list at least allows AM filler, tanks and planes to support our more killy traitor forces in creative or fluffy combinations?

 

Or have I really misunderstood how 8th works?

This is the impression I've gotten, which is actually pretty exciting.

[Lord Asvaldir]

You can't just take chaos guard and chaos space marines in the same detachment, as detachments need the same faction keyword like heretic astartes. However there's nothing stopping you from taking a patrol detachment of R&H alongside a battalion of CSM, so there is far more flexibility with the detachments then there was with the CAD and allied detachments back in 7th. 

[Karinon]

They both have Chaos as a Keyword.

[Goreshed]

What Karinon said, because they have Chaos as a faction keyword you can take them all together. It just means however that bonuses from one group to another most likely won't carry over, the price to pay for putting everything into one army.

[Plaguecaster]

What's this about renegade units can't be transported in chimeras ??? As I can't seem to see it anywhere in the book

[McGibs]

Look under the Astra Militarum transports (like the Chimera). They specifically can only transport Astra Militarum infantry. The R&H conversion gives them Imperium to Chaos, and <Regiment> to R&H, but there's nothing there to deal with the transport keyword. R&H infantry don't have the Astra Militarum keyword, and thus, can't technically ride in any of those transports.

This is obviously a mistake and anyone trying to legitimately argue against it is being a knob. But's its indicative of the overall poor quality of the book.

Edited June 25, 2017 by McGibs

[Plaguecaster]

Bugger there goes my plan of 12 chaos spawn crammed into a chimera like a clown car, bloody FW, even in this new edition they still screw renegades over with shoddy writing :(

[BrassClaw]

Look under the Astra Militarum transports (like the Chimera). They specifically can only transport Astra Militarum infantry. The R&H conversion gives them Imperium to Chaos, and <Regiment> to R&H, but there's nothing there to deal with the transport keyword. R&H infantry don't have the Astra Militarum keyword, and thus, can't technically ride in any of those transports.

This is obviously a mistake and anyone trying to legitimately argue against it is being a knob. But's its indicative of the overall poor quality of the book.

Lets hope that gets fixed with an FAQ or something

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Also lets hope they fix things like Renegade Autopistols having a 6in range when the ones in other books have 12....or Renegades having Demo Charges in Wargear without any unit that can take them, etc.

[UlsanGamer]

Any ideas what a marauder brute should be armed with?

 

-bare hands

-close combat weapon

-brutal assault weapon

-ogryn weapon

 

In Imperial armour 13 they had ccws but then so did ogryn brutes.

 

Edit: further comparison shows marauder brutes and ogryn brutes don't appear to be similiar, so I guess it's bare hands.

Edited June 25, 2017 by UlsanGamer

[Khornestar]

I think we can all be reasonable and not even consider the Chimera thing as a real problem, can't we? I daresay never before has the intent for a unit/army been so clear. This really isn't an issue.

[Sception]

It isnt a problem in and of itself so much as it is emblematic of the lack of care behind these rules, a lack of care that underpins everything else that's bad about the R&H rules, and honestly probably anything good that might be found in them as well.

[Khornestar]

Any ideas what a marauder brute should be armed with?

-bare hands

-close combat weapon

-brutal assault weapon

-ogryn weapon

In Imperial armour 13 they had ccws but then so did ogryn brutes.

Edit: further comparison shows marauder brutes and ogryn brutes don't appear to be similiar, so I guess it's bare hands.

Yeah, pretty obvious oversight. Interesting that it's models that can take special weapons, not just the marauders. How useful is this? Not very, other than giving flamers to the guys with 3 wounds and BS5+. The unit would be a lot more interesting if they could still take power weapons.

[Zhiv]

I think we can all be reasonable and not even consider the Chimera thing as a real problem, can't we? I daresay never before has the intent for a unit/army been so clear. This really isn't an issue.

 

While this is entirely reasonable, it raises question about spawn party busses. Since spawn are 'infantry' under Renegades and Heretics. 

 

Because you can't cram spawn into rhino or land raider, it should follow that they can't get into chimera either.  

 

<.< Shoddy writing much.

[Khornestar]

Yeah, that's fair. One can potentially assume they're more humanoid spawn and thus it's an intended differentiation from CSM spawn, but more than likely it's an oversight. If intended, quite interesting.

[Zhiv]

Yeah, that's fair. One can potentially assume they're more humanoid spawn and thus it's an intended differentiation from CSM spawn, but more than likely it's an oversight. If intended, quite interesting.

 

it's really problematic because you have two options, neither of which is particularly satisfactory.

 

a) R&H don't get transports.

 

b) R&H get transports... and spawn can ride them.

[Plaguecaster]

Probably wrong but I more or less assumed it since they don't actually have the beast keyword like the Herecticus Astartes ones but the infantry keyword instead so RAW if they had the Astra Militarium keyword as well (which basically everything in renegades is missing in order to be transported and what I was more saying was shoddy writing than ) they should in theory be able to be transported since they are infantry like Orgyns :D

Pretty funny if it wasn't an oversight and FW want you to take clown car Chimeras or Aquilas filled with spawn :D

Edited June 26, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[UlsanGamer]

Yeah, pretty obvious oversight. Interesting that it's models that can take special weapons, not just the marauders. How useful is this? Not very, other than giving flamers to the guys with 3 wounds and BS5+. The unit would be a lot more interesting if they could still take power weapons.

I thought about this too until I read it again and it says you have to swap a weapon. Since brutes dont have a valid weapon to swap they cant get one.

[Sception]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the R&H basic infantry & heavy weapon teams are supposed to be BS 4+, and that the 5+ is another typo.  Given their points costs, and that their elite units are BS 3+ and not 4+, and just how many other typos & misprints are in the R&H rules, it seems like a distinct possibility.  The worse armor, worse leadership, and lack of orders without any points discount are all annoying, but they're things I could deal with.  But the reduced ballistic skill on top of all that is one giant step too far.

[Blackheart1223]

The transport issue can easily be fixed by simply saying that they replace all instances of ASTRA MILITARIUM with RENEGADES AND HERETICS. The REGIMENT replacement doesn't make any sense.

[Sception]

yeah, R&H should replace AM.  And the pistols should be 12" range.  And the spawn should be beasts, not infantry.  And the characters should have the character keyword.  All of that, I'd say are likely to be fixed via an early faq, though with FW's history with this faction they might instead be fixed by a series of unclear and contradictory email responses that never see official printed clarification.

 

Beyond that, we get into iffier territory of things that maybe should be fixed, but probably won't be.  For instance, honestly, R&H should get marks, so they can play nice with aligned keyword armies.  Right now even with, say, a nurgle devotion, they wouldn't be legal choices in a Nurgle keyword army.  Which admittedly doesn't matter much now, but is likely to matter in the future, and is annoying regardless.  Also, the commander's abilities should be an aura buffing like-marked R&H units rather than an army wide thing tied to warlord choice.  The current design feels like a hold over from their previous rules that are a poor fit for 8e design philosophy generally.  Not even Abaddon or Magnus are required to be your warlord to access their abilities.  And the benefits offered by the commander should be a fair bit better than they currently are, considering they're standing in for orders.

 

And finally, the basic R&H squads should be BS 4+, that they're not makes them hard to justify at any points cost, let alone equal cost to guard, and the two point jump between the normal and vet troops feels clunky.

[Blackheart1223]

Something else I found, though minor. In the entry for the Renegade Disciples Squad it says that the Champion may exchange its weapon for something from the Pistols list, which technically doesn't exist.

 

I'm drafting an email to FW for some clarifications and suggested updates. So far I have:

 

The Transport issue

Character keyword issue

Pistol range

Spawn keyword issue

Disciple champion issue I mentioned above

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Something else I found, though minor. In the entry for the Renegade Disciples Squad it says that the Champion may exchange its weapon for something from the Pistols list, which technically doesn't exist.

 

I'm drafting an email to FW for some clarifications and suggested updates. So far I have:

 

The Transport issue

Character keyword issue

Pistol range

Spawn keyword issue

Disciple champion issue I mentioned above

Renegade Militia being identified as "Renegade Cultists" in their own entry.

 

The Renegade Commander giving his Covenant of Chaos that he gets for being Warlord to "the Detachment" (looks like only his Detachment) instead of everything with Covenant of Chaos in the army.

 

Demo charges being in Wargear when no Renegade unit can take them (maybe they were meant for the Marauder Chief, who had them last edition, and then got left out).

Edited June 26, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch