Ad Mech in 8th Edition

[Subtle Discord]

 

You're looking at that from a 'the glass is half empty' perspective. While you're correct that Cawl and the Dominus provided the re-roll 1's to hit in Shooting, their bubble is still limited and there are plenty of elements of the army that can't/won't cluster around a HQ all fight. While it likely won't be a first choice Canticle, being able to expand the re-roll to the entire table for a turn seems useful to me.

I see what your getting at, but a 6 inch radius bible is plenty space to get all your main guns fit in, and with how much we're encouraged to bring additional HQ's in bigger armies, it is more likely than not that you will have more than enough domini/cawl to blanket you whole army. Remember you only need one model from the unit within 6" of the HQ to get that bonus.

 

My point was given hiw easy that is, the cantickets seems strangely usekess: anything that wants to get shooting reroll is going to be screening your hq, or have an HQ babysitting them (in the case of Dunecrawlers). Maybe balistarii would get some benefit from it, but their the only unit that is really designed as a super fast mobile weapons platform. All our other vehicles are slow enought that our hq's can keep up with them.

 

You're also passively discouraged from having hq's too close together, since none of their ablitzes really stack. So you end up with those 6" bubbles in all your key gun lines anyway.

 

 

Please note, this is by no means confrontational, simply some dialogue. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll agree you're right and there's redundancy, I just think the Canticle is far from 'useless'. Every time you re-roll a 1 you've got a chance for that to turn into a 6, and with many units gaining something on a roll of a 6 (some better, some worse, admittedly), there's nothing wrong with that. Currently a Dominus with a Macrostubber and Eradication Ray is 144pts, a unit of Vanguard with an Omnispex, and 3x Plasma Caliver is 149pts, and an Onager with a Neuron Laser with 2x Stubbers is 143pts. If my HQ needs are filled for the composition I'm using (what are they called now, formations, detachments?), I personally will be tempted to add the Vanguard or Onager more than another Dominus, but again, that's a personal choice.

 

My plans for an army build seem to remain about the same with the edition switch, so I'll use it as an example; 1 Void Shield Generator with Reactors (new rules pending), 2-3 Dominus (more than 3 just seems overkill), 3-5 full squads of Vanguard with Plasma Calivers, 1-2 small squads of Rangers with Arquebus' (one perched in the Void Shield battlements), 6 Onagers, and some Dragoons/Ironstriders for some fast response. Naturally, I'll want the Dominus to use the Onagers as a screen and they'll want to at least pair up to take advantage of their shields. Note: the Onager base is 5" round, so anything standing beyond the Onager is likely outside of the 6" range of the Dominus' buff. The Vanguard and Dragoons will push up as fast as they can to move on objectives, taking advantage of their Assault weapons. The Onager will advance more slowly to provide support but if the Vanguard are even a bit out front they'll be outside of the 6" buff range. Also, as the Dominus advance they will also move away from the Rangers in the back field perched high up, and there will be a limbo point where the front and back of the army are just outside of the buff range; that's when I plan to use it. Advance quickly using Shroudpsalm as the supporting Onagers hold back some to take advantage of the Void Shield for a turn, try to find your best fire lanes, then hug cover, remove advancing casualties from the rear of the units, then use Benediction to overcharge every plasma I've got on the table for a turn (and fish for extra exploding 6's), and then make the call if I want the Dominus to move up and return the buff to the leading Vanguard next turn, or have them react to what ever messy situation is likely to be happening somewhere.

 

Remember, ideally the opponent isn't exactly going to cooperate with your plan and will try disrupt it. I fully expect to lose a Dominus to some sniper fire at least some of the time (creating a gap), and I also expect flanking maneuvers that are going to force my Dominus out of formation to react and tie up the threat (another gap). If you've already burned through other Canticles at that point, and there are gaps forming in the coverage, again, that's when you use it. But naturally, I need to actually get out and throw some dice to see if what I think is actually the reality.

[MagicHat]

Void shield is now 4+invul that degrades and I am not sure if you can place models on it anymore, as none of the bunker forts allows it.

 

Not sure if the pipes and reactors even have rules anymore.

 

I was looking forward to taking lots of fortifications in 8th, but it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

[Silentz]

Void shield is now 4+invul that degrades and I am not sure if you can place models on it anymore, as none of the bunker forts allows it.

 

Not sure if the pipes and reactors even have rules anymore.

 

I was looking forward to taking lots of fortifications in 8th, but it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

Pipes are in the main rulebook

 

Reactors... no!  I don't think they do.   That's really weird seeing as they are so new. 

[Trydragon]

 

Void shield is now 4+invul that degrades and I am not sure if you can place models on it anymore, as none of the bunker forts allows it.

 

Not sure if the pipes and reactors even have rules anymore.

 

I was looking forward to taking lots of fortifications in 8th, but it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

Pipes are in the main rulebook

 

Reactors... no!  I don't think they do.   That's really weird seeing as they are so new. 

 

 

I got a Feeling that all the Admech Stuff will be in there New Book when it comes out.

[clanfield]

sooo the new forge world index for guards includes  rules for titans and knights but according to the index on show

on the preorder page 103 titan legion army list...ooohh shiney :P

[Suzuteo]

Just checking, since the question was asked above, but does Litany of the Electromancer check upon activation or whenever a unit enters 1" range?

 

I have my own answer, but I'd want to sanity check.

[banis]

sooo the new forge world index for guards includes  rules for titans and knights but according to the index on show

on the preorder page 103 titan legion army list...ooohh shiney

 

Yeah but no titan guard:(..

[banis]

Just checking, since the question was asked above, but does Litany of the Electromancer check upon activation or whenever a unit enters 1" range?

 

I have my own answer, but I'd want to sanity check.

Sorry for double post ... but i would say upon activation for sure.

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

Just checking, since the question was asked above, but does Litany of the Electromancer check upon activation or whenever a unit enters 1" range?

 

I have my own answer, but I'd want to sanity check.

Sorry for double post ... but i would say upon activation for sure.

 

So just once per battle round? And only once if within 1" of an Ad mech unit, no difference for multiple units?

Kind of meh... even if there are 6 different close combats going on (which would be a lot, wouldn't it?), it would be just 1 mortal wound on average?

[MajorNese]

 

sooo the new forge world index for guards includes  rules for titans and knights but according to the index on show

on the preorder page 103 titan legion army list...ooohh shiney

 

Yeah but no titan guard:(..

 

...or ordinatus. Yay, completed both, can't use them until they grace us with Cyraxis...

[Suzuteo]

 

 

Just checking, since the question was asked above, but does Litany of the Electromancer check upon activation or whenever a unit enters 1" range?

 

I have my own answer, but I'd want to sanity check.

Sorry for double post ... but i would say upon activation for sure.

 

So just once per battle round? And only once if within 1" of an Ad mech unit, no difference for multiple units?

Kind of meh... even if there are 6 different close combats going on (which would be a lot, wouldn't it?), it would be just 1 mortal wound on average?

 

Technically, once at the START of a battle round. So they had to have been within 1" beforehand. And yes, each enemy gets at most one roll. Furthermore, assuming there are 6 units within 1" of any of your units (not 6 separate CCs), you deal D3 mortal wounds, so 2 average.

 

Interestingly enough, Litany of the Electromancer gives us some incentive to go second, which we probably will against everything but hordes since we lack transports. You finish your assault, end the battle round, and then at the start of the next one, before your opponent moves, you can zap them with Litany.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Suzuteo

[Suzuteo]

Sorry for possible double post, but this raises a question that I did not consider before.

 

Warhammer uses 1" from base as the new standard for CC. 25mm is less than 1". So if I were to swerve my dragoon to its longest axis along say, a group of 10 GEQs that pile in base-to-base, can I hit all of them with Litany?

[Subtle Discord]

1 inch equals 25.4mm. You're essentially splitting hairs.

[Steerpike_]

Sorry for possible double post, but this raises a question that I did not consider before.

 

Warhammer uses 1" from base as the new standard for CC. 25mm is less than 1". So if I were to swerve my dragoon to its longest axis along say, a group of 10 GEQs that pile in base-to-base, can I hit all of them with Litany?

It's a roll for mortal wounds per unit, not per model. 

[Steerpike_]

What's also interesting is how the second rank in CC just needs to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy model. So you can basically strike something 3" away. 

[Suzuteo]

1 inch equals 25.4mm. You're essentially splitting hairs.

Yes, but a very important hair: Are two 25mm units touching base-to-base counted within 1"?

 

 

Sorry for possible double post, but this raises a question that I did not consider before.

 

Warhammer uses 1" from base as the new standard for CC. 25mm is less than 1". So if I were to swerve my dragoon to its longest axis along say, a group of 10 GEQs that pile in base-to-base, can I hit all of them with Litany?

It's a roll for mortal wounds per unit, not per model. 

 

Oops, you are right! I knew that, but I forgot in that moment. Haha. Still, I think the 25mm vs. 1" question is important from a RAW perspective.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Suzuteo

[MagicHat]

We are going to have 40 power points 8th introduction games next Sunday. 

I am thinking:

 

10 man Vanguard, 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex.

 

10 man Vanguard, 3 Plasma Calivers, phospor blast pistol/arc maul, omnispex.

 

10 man Rangers, 3 Transuranic Arquebus, Ominspex.

 

Dominus, Eradication Ray, phospor serpenta.

 

Onager Dunecrawler, Neutron Laser.

 

Which leaves 3 power points. My first thought was an Enginseer, as a backup to repair my onager if the dominus gets to far away. 

However, I could take a Datasmith, and gain superior combat abilities at the cost of no repairing.

 

Thoughts?

 

Had my first 8th edition battle today, with this list and the Datasmith. Warlord trait re-roll Ld (Which I believe would be best for any infantry heavy force, when your HQ is a Dominus.)

 

Opponent was a nearly complete beginner in 7th with Deathwatch Vanguard detachment:

 

Captain, combi-flamer and power sword.

 

5 vanguards, 1 Storm shield/thunderhammer, 4 chainsword/grav pistol.

 

5 vanguards, 1Storm shield/thunderhammer, 4 chainsword/bolt pistol.

 

1 Venerable Dread with stormbolter and twin lascannon.

 

1 Dreadnought with stormbolter and plasma cannon.

 

No mercy for simplicity, he won deployment and chose Search and Destroy.

He deployed his dreads and captain behind LoS, I started deploying aggressively, vanguards in front and wrapping the characters and the Rangers on top of a ruin.

 

He had been talking about deploying his van-vets from the sky, but when he saw my deployment... He went with one squad opposed to me. I failed to seize, which meant he could jump up and end up very close. He supercharged his plasma dread and took 4 wounds from my Onager (7), failed with his other dread then shot my poor vanguards. I had +1 S canticle, since shroudpsalm was all but useless to all the AP-3. He chose to only engage 1 squad, and this is were my deployment mistake was revealed: My datasmith had no room to intervene. 

His other van-vets accomplished 1 vanguard kill and failed to charge.

 

Last 2 vanguards of my plasma squad died to morale.

 

My turn: Healed up my onager 1 W (8). Onager and snipers took the Venerable down to 3 wounds. The rest of my force divided up their firepower, leaving 1 van-vet in the squad that assaulted me and 3 in the other. The lone van-vet was then multi-assaulted and killed by the vanguards, who tried to consolidate a new bubblewrap.

 

His turn 2, he shoots his Venerable at my dunecrawler again and I pass my saves. His other dreads causes 4 wounds again, then his vanguard group jumped up and vengeance rounded me to 3 remaining wounds, and then charges. And he has a hammer... Which fails! His chainsword mates does 3 wounds, which I save! 

 

My turn 2, fall back, repair up to 6 W, then shoot majority of my force at the van-vets, whom dies. Snipers brings the Venerable down to 1 W, which the dominus corrects into zero.

 

His turn 3, moves the captain so he can shoot his 1 boltershot. Plasma dread does 2 W (4) on the Onager.

 

My turn 3, heals the Dunecrawler up to 7. Snipers do 5 wounds to the captain, killing him. Dread down to 3 W through the arc rifles and eradication ray.

 

His turn 4, shoots some vanguards with his plasma, killing 1 I think.

 

My turn 4, heal the dunecrawler up to 8 or 9, kills his dread.

Both sides completely forgot about the command points, would probably have re-rolled my dunecrawlers number of shots.

 

He proceeded to play with another list against necrons and was wiped turn 3 poor bugger, and they only had 3 Triarch Praetorians lost at the end.

Not looking forward to playing against Necrons, the bane of my existence.

 

So.

 

Dunecrawler performed admirably. Survived and operated at peak efficiency thanks to the Dominus, only missed 1 shooting phase due to a fall back move. Well worth it.

 

Arc rifle (and their vanguards) did little. Put some wounds on the marines, but nothing extraordinary. I still think they can bully light vehicles but meh overall.

 

Plasma went unused due to death sadly. 

 

Rangers seemed to put out more wounds then vanguards and the Arquebus performed above all my expectations. 3 mortal wounds in total, dropped a SM captain in a single round... Statistics be damned, they did admirably as well.

 

Characters put out some ranged damage and the Dominus obviously repaired. Datasmith probably better in a list with Kastelan.

 

This makes vanguards seem worse then I want though. Their value lies in the bubblewrap against deepstrikers and fast movers in general. 

 

Annoyingly, units of 5 with 2 specials each costs as much as units of 10 with 3 specials in power rating. Enemies might overkill your MSU, Morale wont kill the last 2 models in a unit and enemy charges can be limited in damage.

[Tiger9gamer]

I also played two games today, one at 50 power level against nids and one at 115 power level against marines (so 1,000 and 2,000 points respectivly)

 

little guys like my vanguard did next to nothing both games and died horribly, but the real stars are the onagers and robots. the bots were able to deal with most infantry well barring good invuln saves, and the onagers basically look at a big bug and it's dead. my only problem with the bots is getting them stuck in assault, as both games I played I had them tied down for at least two turns in the double shooty mode unable to move and unable to do anything but take a few kicks at the enemy. it was super annoying to say the least. 

 

I do gotta say the fist robots are amazing. they ripped apart a contemptor and a gravis captain my turn, and were able to survive for a stupidly long time. The destroyers were great too, melting what they shot at most of the time. over all I gotta say i'm loving the big heavies more and more!

[Steerpike_]

Just had my first real game of 8th.

 

Brought about 1500 points of:

Onager Neutron	2
Onager Icarus	1
Dominus	        2
Skit Van	9
Skit Van Plas	6
Skit Alpha	2
Skit Alpha 	1
Rangers	        7
Rangers Trans	3
Skit w/ omni	3
Destroyers	3
Infiltrators	5 

My opponent brought genestealer cults.

 

I picked deployment and chose the corners map, with the hole in the middle.

 

He got the first turn and drove 2 transports into the center of the table to camp on an objective (domination).He got some shots off at the vanguard, but failed to take out any of the calivers. A Leman Russ hung out in the back with an objective, while firing a battle cannon at my onagers, which made an absurd number of invulnerable saves. The saves they didn't make were mostly healed up by a Dominus. I got far more value out of my heals than I ever did when playing against myself. Larger tables make it easier to effectively spread out damage taken, and thus increase your healing capacity. The Icarus Array was awesome, despite not having any flyers to target. It's just such a versatile weapon. 

 

Onagers are really stupendously durable. A 2+ save (with shroudpsalm), along with a 5++ (re-roll 1s) invulnerable save, along with (probably) healing 3D wounds each turn. It's pretty rare that tall vehicles with great line of sight can also get cover saves. They're also relatively cheap and have terrific guns. The cognis stubbers were workhorses. 

 

 

All of my plasma calivers got off their re-rollable supercharged shots, which (when you get them) let the vanguard pay for themselves super quickly. My infiltrators countered some isolated infantry and tore them up with Flechette blasters. They were surprisingly durable when getting ganked by genestealers.

The overwatch from the blasters killed a genestealer, and having 2 wounds, along with a 4+ save let them hold onto a side of the board far longer than I would have expected. 

 

Destroyers with grav and flamers did really awesomely as well. After marching around a terrain feature and finally getting to charge with some acolytes, the destructive overwatch potential of the flamers became apparent. I rolled for 10 overwatch hits from 2 destroyers and let my opponent rethink the decision to charge. While destroyers aren't really an ideal bubblewrap unit, they make amazing units for holding the flank from deepstrike attacks. The heavy grav wasn't ideal though. There weren't any of the right targets for it to shine. 

 

 

My opponent probably lost the game in his genestealer cults infiltration rolls, as he had to deploy most of his scary units far from the action. This was partly his fault though, as he waited until turn 2 to infiltrate, despite the fact that everyone in my army already had something to shoot at from turn 1.  There just wasn't ever enough coming at my gunline to overwhelm it. 

 

Despite this, he would have crushed me in points if he wasn't tabled on turn 5. If an enemy advances on turn 1 and takes objectives, there's not really anything a shooty army can do to recapture those positions.... except kill everything.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Steerpike_

[MagicHat]

Played another 2 games today, first one against the necron player that crushed the DW player.

 

Same list, except I had the Icarus Array on the Onager this time.

 

Opponent was:

 

Overlord.

 

5 Tesla Immortals.

 

9 Tomb Blades, each with 2 gauss blasters, shieldvanes and some other upgrade that I don't remember.

 

2 Annihilation barges with gauss cannon.

 

Suffice to say, I vastly overestimated the effect of shroudpsalm, deployed aggressively, and then lost the rangers and plasma vanguard first turn.

 

Tomb blade had caused the majority of the damage, so I concentrated everything left at them and... killed about 4. This was the general result each turn. I killed 3-4, he recovered about 3 each turn while my own forces was decimated. My Dominus and Datasmith charged them when there was 3 left at a point and failed to kill even 1 of them. When the Onager was the sole model left (5 wounds, so BS4+), and he had 6 Tomb Blades, I decided to shoot an Annihilation Barge instead and actually killed it in one shooting phase, the heavy stubber taking the last wound off. But, he used a command re-roll, and saved it. 

In the end he only had 3 tomb blades as casualty, while my force was wiped. Necrons are undoubtedly strong this edition.

 

I had been looking at the list we can make though and this is one possible 40 PR army:

Dominus.

Datasmith.

3 Onagers. Probably 2 Icarus, 1 Neutron. 

2 Kastelan Robots. Probably melee/flamer variant.

I personally lacks an Onager for this though.

I would even get an extra command point for the heavy slot detachment, and this build would likely have wiped the necron player, so I am not sure if I can claim Necrons totally bonkers OP yet.

 

2nd game was against tyranids.

1 Warrior Prime.

2 * 30 hordes of Hormagaunts.

3 Venomthropes.

3 Shrikes.

3 spore mines.

3 ripper swarms.

Deathleaper.

 

His force was spread out over his deployment, mine was concentrated on one flank.

Plasma squad went out and advanced into 18" range, arc squad followed up about 4" from them. Onager killed all but 1 shrike.

His turn, Deatleaper turned up behind me and charged the Dunecrawler (Yay for 7+ to hit!), hormagaunts charged my plasma vanguard and killed 5. Turns out they can pile in/consolidate 6"... Ops. Arc squad got dragged in as well.

 

My turn, full scale fall back from melee. Rangers pulled a decent amount of wounds from the hormagaunt, snipers, Dominus and datasmith (Charge!) managed to kill Deathleaper, despite his pesky -2 to hit.

His turn, he moved up the board and charged my plasma marines again. Arc managed to stay out and in my turn I backed up and shot the first hormagaunt to shreds while the Dunecrawler managed to kill the venomthropes in one turn. 

Don't remember the exact turn of events after that. Second hormagaunt squad managed to engage my entire force (Rad-saturation and +1S Canticle meant fairly equal trading of blows though), but I eventually managed to get my Dunecrawler free and able to shoot his prime after fallbacking my vanguards... And the bug survived. It charged my Dominus whom proceeded to open up a can of whoopass (Thanks +1 S canticle, you have served me well!).

Turn 6, he had 4 hormagaunts left, so my remaining combatants fell back and Dunecrawler wiped the floor.

Left at the field: 

Dominus with 3 Wounds.

Ranger Alpha.

5 Vanguards from the Arc squad.

Onager, full health and holding an objective.

[Ammonius]

The folks in my area are ignoring power points (for now?) and looking just at matched play points, Thus, I have mathed up the following 1000pt list based on all available hard data:

 

Adeptus Mechanicus Army 1000 pts

Unit/ Gear    Cost

Dominus    135

Omnissian Axe    

Volkite Blaster    

Macrostubber    

    

Datasmith    52

Gamma Pistol    

Power Fist    

    

VanguardA x10    106

Taser Goad    

    

RangersA x 5    107

Transuranic Arquebus x2    

Omnispex    

    

RangersB x 5    107

Transuranic Arquebus x2    

Omnispex    

    

OnagerA    130

Icarus Array    

Broad Spectrum Data-Tether    

    

OnagerB    143

Neutron Laser    

Cognis Hvy Stubber    

Broad Spectrum Data-Tether    

    

Kastellan x2    220

Heavy Phosphor Blaster x2   

Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster x2 

    

 

Reality check:

- I expect to fight a couple of different styles of Ork armies, Loyalist Marines and Thousand Sons at minimum.

- I am aware that with the points from the Alpha's taser goad, I could get the Dominus an Eradication Ray. am I wrong not to?

 

Modeling/ Assembly question:

Has anyone noticed that the Skitarii box doesn't come with 10 sets of radium carbine arms? Is there a trick to using the Radium Carbine with no arm attached? Am I looking at sacrificing one of the pistols to get a right arm perhaps?

[Steerpike_]

One of the vanguard has his carbine on his shoulder while pointing/aiming an omnispex/talking on a data tether. That might be what you're missing? I'd read the instructions for vanguard/rangers. There are a lot of parts that look interchangeable, but aren't (at least not without risk of things not fitting together well at all).

 

That looks like a very competitive list.

 

The one thing I'm not sure about is all the Aquerbuses. At 1000 pts you're giving up so much for those 4 snipers. Your vanguard are neutered without any plasma, and your onagers not taking all the heavy cognis stubbers they can is a huge waste. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Steerpike_

[Silentz]

My concern for that list is a lack of bodies. Your nightmare scenario is for something to get in close combat with the Kastelan. They will still find it hard to kill them but they will just neutralise them for ages.

 

If your enemy can deep strike you need to make sure there is nowhere they can land and assault you.

 

Even if they can't deep strike, ita critical to provide some speedbump units that can take an assault then fall back and allow the Kastelan their double round of shooting.

[Heliomanes]

 

I hope with the inevitable joint codex we will have options to take ore servitors & thralls. I like the idea of a lower end non-army ad mech force. Something along the lines of GS-Cult miners

Oh my god that's hilarious! Just takeep a vanguard detachment with two Techpreist Enginseer "foremen" and a bunch of servitors, then you have spots for servo haulers (assuming they make them units, which would be hilarious).

 

I remember a picture floating around of someone who kit bashed the armoured container kit and the servo hauler kit into a little train, it made me think how cool a model that would be as a transport.

 

I've been picturing a huge manufactorum being under attack, and the local Magi sending out a host of kitchen and maintenance servitors to stall the attackers, flailing their vacuum-cleaner arms and baking appendages.

[Charlo]

Ya know, the more I look at bat reps the more I'm seeing Electro Priests as a must have for us now.

 

Keep them out of sight then use them to counter charge and mop up any survivors, between either the big hitting power of the Disco Sticks or the MASSED DICE of the Zappy Hands they cover a wide range of uses for us now that the Skitarii are a little lacking.