Ad Mech in 8th Edition

[Feral_80]

I believe the rules made a good job in balancing the choice (in lack of special rules that mitigate morale wounds) between medium-sized units and msu. Yes, msu are less vulnerable to morale. But then again, they are not necessarily the best choice: with every unit now having split fire, they are more vulnerable to fire and do not force your opponent to 'waste' shots anymore by overkilling them. A player can quite easily figure out how much dakka he needs to kill a unit on average, and plan his turn accordingly. So, each choice has its pros and cons.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Feral_80

[MagicHat]

I had my 10 man skitarii close to an Onager and a Dominus with the re-roll Ld trait.

Did not save them when the enemy did 7 kills, and I am more then willing to believe that the enemy can do that based on my experience so far.

 

Data-tethers can be replicated with the Warlord trait, so is probably unnecessary.

 

Omnispex have played very little difference in my games so far.

 

I am currently considering going MSU. Theoretically, I wont hand the enemy a bunch of morale kills and they are less likely to be able to bind entire squads into melee, but it will be harder to keep everyone inside the bubble.

[Steerpike_]

 

Omnispex have played very little difference in my games so far.

 

We'll have to see how the "cover meta" works out. Do armies other than Ad-Mech get easy access to universal cover save?

 

How common are weapons like phosphor blasters and omnispex?

[SoulGlaive]

I just got back into 40k after a long break, 5+ years, with 8th edition and decided to go with AdMech. I started off with 2 Start Collecting Boxes, and a box of Kastellan robots.

 

With the 20 Skitarii Troops I assembled

- 5 as Rangers with 2 Arquebus snipers

- 15 as Vanguard with 2 Plasma Calivers (currently holding off arms on 4 until i can procure some more = the new FW book and upgrade kits leaving me some extras)

 

Im not seeing much of a use for the arc rifles with the -1 AP, even if it has D3 damage. With all of the other long range potent anti armor available, especially the onagers. Maybe I missed something?

Edited June 26, 2017 by SoulGlaive

[MagicHat]

D3 damage actually, and only against vehicles. Think of them as light anti-infantry that can shoot light vehicles (We are talking landspeeders light here...) for a cheap cost. I don't think they are badly priced, just that the opportunity cost of not taking the plasma is to high.

 

 

 

Omnispex have played very little difference in my games so far.

 

We'll have to see how the "cover meta" works out. Do armies other than Ad-Mech get easy access to universal cover save?

 

How common are weapons like phosphor blasters and omnispex?

 

 

I only have the Imperium indexes, but I don't think there are any other army that can say "Cover on everything".

Ignores cover is also very rare... Our 4 phospor weapons might be more then the rest of the Imperium combined gets in that regard. 

[dogfender]

Does someone have a link to the leaks still? My gears are turning on a project. Could someone PM me, please and thank you.

[lancerusso]

 

 

 

With all the changes from 8th edition is their a consensus on the most efficient way to run Vanguard?

 

Especially with morale/targeting/charging, is there really a reason to run 10 body squads vs the minimum 5 body?

 

I'm inclined to believe that running Vanguard x5 with 1 or 2 Plasma Calivers and possibly an Omispex (points permitting) is the most optimal load out.

IMO that's the way to go with arc weapons. 65points for 5 man, two arc rifles, omnispex. I think plasma needs the ablative wounds so 10 man squad with 3 plas, and contraversially, a data tether to minimise morale loss. The omnispex doesn't give you a whole lot as often the targets you're shooting at with plas (non infantry) don't get cover saves. That's 151 points, the same as a fully kitted out neutron onager... Will have to playtest to see its worth

@ lancerusso The Ablative wounds part is the bit that gets me. If the opponent targets the plasma unit and starts to take those ablative wounds then the squads gone regardless from morale. Looking at a 8 for leadership with a data tether. After 2 casualties you begin to risk more without additional interaction from your opponent, and T3, 4+ save (3+ in cover or canticle) is not the most resilient of troopers.

When you split the unit into 2 groups of 5 you force the opponent to focus fire and you reduce the morale factor from taking "free models". You make your opponent commit resources to do the work.

 

From what I'm looking at enemy models do receive cover from Plasma Calivers and Carbines. Unless i missed something? Phosphor are the cover ignoring weapons.

 

Not sure if I'm explaining it all that well but that's my impression. Granted I've only played smaller games in 8th thus far.

I meant: infantry only get cover if they're in a terrain base. Non infantry need to be obscured. It's not that common. The morale re roll is worth more, and your ld should be 9 because of enhanced data tether from nearby vehicles, or 10 if you have a warlord with a +1ld bubble.

 

In cover for 3+ saves is actually pretty resilient. Because squads can split their fire, I feel like MSUs arent actually as important as you say for splitting fire, but obviously people have to call the shots first before firing so it is still true. I've had so many squads of five just wiped from the table that I feel like some larger strength squads are actually good to have, but if only to protect expensive plas and upgraded sargeants.

 

Mostly though, yes, MSUs. It lets us take force orgs more flexibly, though I hate our lack of hqs. Three tech priests if you want a battalion/brigade/whichever gives +9. Cawl is mars only.

[Steerpike_]

 

 

 

In cover for 3+ saves is actually pretty resilient. Because squads can split their fire, I feel like MSUs arent actually as important as you say for splitting fire, but obviously people have to call the shots first before firing so it is still true. I've had so many squads of five just wiped from the table that I feel like some larger strength squads are actually good to have, but if only to protect expensive plas and upgraded sargeants.

 

Mostly though, yes, MSUs. It lets us take force orgs more flexibly, though I hate our lack of hqs. Three tech priests if you want a battalion/brigade/whichever gives +9. Cawl is mars only.

 

 

 

No one is going to complain that you took Cawl but your color scheme isn't Martian enough. 

 

It's pretty irritating that our cheapest HQ is 140 points though. And that we ONLY have aura based HQ's. In small games (<1000 pts) taking more than 1 HQ is a huge points sink, making Battalions unavailable. 

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

It's pretty irritating that our cheapest HQ is 140 points though. And that we ONLY have aura based HQ's. In small games (<1000 pts) taking more than 1 HQ is a huge points sink, making Battalions unavailable. 

 

 

True that, I am waiting for a lower rank Tech Priest HQ or better a Skitarii HQ at about 70 points.

Maybe FW will provide a modell for the Axiarch soon together with some rules for 8th edition... god damn I am so looking forward to Fires of Cyraxis and all the options we might get then

[Silentz]

Phew. Got to be honest guys, I am getting battered in 8th with my Ad Mech.

 

Granted, it's a small sample size against limited opponents... it COULD be very poor matchups... but I've been whooped 4 times straight against a friend's Dark Eldar list.

 

I'm playing a very shooty list

• Cawl + TPD
  
• 3 Dakkastelans + Datasmith
  
• Knight crusader with RFBC and Gatling
  
• Onager with Icarus Array
  
• 2 x 5 vanguard
  
• 2 x 5 rangers
  
• 10 fulgurite priests
  
• 5 infiltrators
  

 

He's playing

 

• 2 archon
  
• 4 Ravagers with Dark Lances
  
• 3 Razorwing Fighters with Dark Lances and missiles
  
• 6 Venoms with 5 man kabalite squads inside
  
• 2 Razorwing Flocks
  

 

His list works so well because:

 

• He has immense mobility - pretty much everything can fly and move 12" or more... whereas I am almost immobile. 
  
• He has tons of invulnerable saves vs shooting - almost everything is a 5+ invuln.
  
• the Razorwing Flocks (stupid f*****g things - 10 bases per unit - each base has 8 attacks and 4 wounds per base... 7 pts each) are a massive screen/flying tarpit/objective swarmer. 
  
• He has loads of long range high strength high rend with the Dark Lances
  
• And probably most critically of all - the venoms and the flyers are -1 to hit so things like Dakkastelans are hitting on 5's if they stand still or 6's if they move. Dramatically reduces my ability to quickly kill things. 
  

 

It's a disaster. 

 

Last night he seized the initiative on me, destroyed my onager and pretty much all my skitarii troops on turn one, then just owned the maelstrom and won 19-3.  All I had left by the end were the (unharmed) Kastelans.

 

Losing a bit of faith in the ability for the army to compete. 

 

My army:

• Knight did a lot of damage and took a huge amount of firepower to kill - very good.
  
• Electropriests - charged from cover T1 and wiped a venom to immediately get their supersave... then got tied up in combat with the birds until the end of the game. 
  
• Onager and Sniper rangers focussed down T1, never got to shoot
  
• Kastelans put out plenty of wounds but struggled to finish anything off - they are so good against S3/4 infantry but against S5/6 vehicles with invulnerable saves they disappoint.
  
• Cawl's short range is a real problem. His buff is so good he has to stay with the gunline but then offers nothing himself unless you get danger close. Shame he doesn't have a 24" gun. 
  

 

 

Meh.  Sorry for the wall of text - just frustrated.

 

Taking this list to a tournament soon - hopefully I come up against Orks, Nids, Marines, Guard...  anything but this! :)

[Charlo]

He's outnumbering you with a lot of speed and firepower and because of how vehicles are this edition, even his Venoms are more cardboard than they were paper last edition!

 

Your Skitarii probably won't ever get anything done as such small unit sizes and he'll just pick them off as he pleases with splinter weapons dotted about his force. Same with the infiltrators, too small in number to do anything big. He can afford small squads because he has a lot of them, that are in a transport and fast.

 

Your Knight is great, but also a huge amount of points at this level - are you playing Points or Power Level? Dark Eldar are an army that benefit GREATLY from Power Level, where as Ad Mech probably aren't so much - a lot less granular upgrades and options.

 

As with everyone, I'd suggest more Onagers!

[Baluc]

What are people's thoughts on Servitors? I like the idea of them in matched play cheap drops, somewhat decent shooting, and decent melee since if they charge you get to go first anyway, a couple servo arm attacks won't go unnoticed. And, since I have no transports I rarely get to go first anyway after dropping each priest, datasmith and unit. 

 

I've used them to charge vehicles in my turn so that the next turn the enemy can't use their transports to soak my overwatch. 

[SoulGlaive]

@Silentz It looks to be about a 2k list (playing around in battlescribe)

 

Here are some of my thoughts.

Knight - man that's alot of points. Especially against Dark Eldar lance spam.... hmmm. Save a couple points and drop it to a Paladin maybe? Otherwise that's what 3 onagers ...

Infiltrators - Against dark Eldar they are a complete waste.

Rangers - 1 unit at most with 2 snipers in case a succubus ends up on foot ...

Kastelans - I'm not sure you need 3, but I see the attraction.

Electropriests - not sure what you mean by tied up, they can just retreat and have the rest of the army shoot at the birds, otherwise no practical experience here although I am keen to try them out.

 

Something like this perhaps -

 

++ Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (CP +0) (Questor Imperialis) [458 Pts] ++

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Knight Paladin [458 Pts]: Heavy Stubber, Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Reaper Chainsword

 

+ 'Faction +

 

Forge World Entries

 

++ Battalion (CP +3) (Adeptus Mechanicus) [1497 Pts] ++

 

+ Troops +

 

Skitarii Rangers [100 Pts]: 5x Ranger, 2x Transuranic Arquebus

 

Skitarii Vanguard [64 Pts]: Plasma Caliver, 5x Vanguard

 

Skitarii Vanguard [64 Pts]: Plasma Caliver, 5x Vanguard

 

Skitarii Vanguard [64 Pts]: Plasma Caliver, 5x Vanguard

 

Skitarii Vanguard [64 Pts]: Plasma Caliver, 5x Vanguard

 

Skitarii Vanguard [64 Pts]: Plasma Caliver, 5x Vanguard

 

+ Elites +

 

Cybernetica Datasmith [52 Pts]: Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

 

Fulgurite Electro Priests [160 Pts]: 10x Electro Priest

 

+ HQ +

 

Belisarius Cawl [250 Pts]

 

Tech-Priest Dominus [135 Pts]: Macrostubber, Volkite Blaster

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Kastelan Robots [220 Pts]: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster, 2x Kastelan

. 2x Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 4x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

 

Onager Dunecrawler [130 Pts]: Icarus Array

 

Onager Dunecrawler [130 Pts]: Icarus Array

 

+ 'Faction +

 

Forge World Entries

 

++ Total: [1955 Pts] ++

 

With points to add some more odds and ends. Also you can play with the Vanguard depending on your view of MSU vs 10 man units

I also really like Ballistari with Lascannons, they can do some work if they get through the invuls. But freeing up points becomes an issue.

All in all Dark eldar are a tough nut to crack. Plasma Cadillac can do work on the birds but man they are fragile, especially against lance.

[Ammonius]

@Silentz -

Perhaps you could look into something like the Aegis Defense Line to put your Vanguard/ Rangers behind? Also, what kind of terrain density are you guys using? Can your opponent easily shoot at what he wants with his whole army, or is it solely their speed? I think Charlo is correct, I'd turn the Knight into an equivalent points value of Icarus Onagers

[Silentz]

Le sigh.

 

Yeah - genuine thanks for the tips.   Some kind of barricade might be useful - although for our army, Shroudpsalm does exactly the same thing doesn't it?  +1 armour save.  And you can assault through the open while getting it. 

 

This list is for a 2000 point 5-game 100-player tournament on Saturday/Sunday. I am not expecting to be particularly competitive but hopefully I can provide a speedbump to some people. I think I will be more effective against Marines or horde armies with poor saves than this list - it's just who I've been practicing against. 

 

Terrain will be tournament level so I expect 4-6 LOS blockers on an otherwise flat table. 

 

The truth is, removing the knight and having 3 onagers and more infiltrators might work better - and would make me eligible to win "Best AdMech" compared to the far more competitive "Best Imperium"...  but... I only bought this one Onager on Monday and I am not buying and painting 2 more in 3 days!  :)

[Steerpike_]

Yeah I think the issue is that you don't get any synergy between Cawl and your knight. Cawl is a support character with huge buffs. He costs an 1/8 of your points despite not really putting out any useful firepower. Your knight is ~1/4 of your points but doesn't get any benefit from Cawl. 

 

In addition to painting 3 more onagers, you should also paint 60 conscripts in the next 2 days. 

 

 

For realz though, onagers are one of the most durable vehicles in the game. Just on a wounds per point level:

 

Knights give you ~0.045 wounds / point while neutron onagers w/ 2 stubbers give you 0.073 wounds / point.

 

Add on the fact that Onagers get stupidly good saves: 3+ 5++, with easy access to 2+ (shroudpsalm) and 5++ re-roll 1s (with another onager nearby). It's substantially easier to peel wounds off a land raider or a knight. Plus a tech priest coming in clutch with them heals. Onagers are keepers. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Steerpike_

[Silentz]

Yep - lots of points in few units.  If they were hyper-mobile then maybe it would be ok but cawl is slow with short range, kastelans are static to get the best from them and the knight degrades and is a bullet magnet.   Unfortunately despite my love for this army, I don't think it's going to be good enough for a GT based on the lists I am seeing.

 

Thinking of taking marines instead.

 

Boo.

[Vel'Cona]

Yes, the lack of transports and cheap/durable torrent of fire is a real problem for AdMech.  Most of our good firebases are devoted to MEQ or heavy-armour killing; we really don't have a consistent, long-range mass fire unit to deal with horde armies like Orks and 'Nids (which may just be the new black for 8th).

[Magos_Adephus]

Personally I'm banking (more praying really) on Cyraxis adding more stuff from HH than just Battle-Automata. Ordinatii, Secutarii, the tanks and conveyors, probably the Cerastus Knights too.

[Charlo]

Cerastus Knight's are in the new FW book :) but yeah, no Mechanicum keyword.

 

We know that Secutarii and Ordinatus are in along with some Automata. Apparently Thallax were said to be too.

 

Just praying for the Triaros, Macroarid and the Krios.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Personally I'm banking (more praying really) on Cyraxis adding more stuff from HH than just Battle-Automata. Ordinatii, Secutarii, the tanks and conveyors, probably the Cerastus Knights too.

 

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/secutarii-in-8th-edition-forge-world.html

 

Cerastus Knights are already in the Astra Militarum Index released by FW, Secutarii and Ordinatii will follow most likely before FoC drops.

[SoulGlaive]

Yes, the lack of transports and cheap/durable torrent of fire is a real problem for AdMech.  Most of our good firebases are devoted to MEQ or heavy-armour killing; we really don't have a consistent, long-range mass fire unit to deal with horde armies like Orks and 'Nids (which may just be the new black for 8th).

 

I completely agree on the lack of transports. I think that once AdMech recieve a form of transport and/or a flyer they will have all the tools they require. Otherwise I disagree.

 

I think Kastelan with phosphor x3 are an amazing durable fire base (TPD, DataSmith, and Cawl boosting them further and way to heal), especially at anti infantry, plus they do work vs some of the monsters. They suffer vs heavy armor, but that's where the Onagers and lascannon Ballistarii come in. Bubble wrap with Vanguard, add some ranger snipers to try and take out that kustum force field and your in business. Then electro priest as your counter unit when the enemy inevitably reach your lines.

 

The issues that I've found come from pushing out from that fire base. Dragoons seem very underwhelming overall. Our ninja robots are fast and have a place but are inconsistent, not very durable, and are not cheep enough to 'blob" objectives. This is why I pray to the omnissiah for a quality transport option. Give me a way to get my Vanguard to an area and camp objectives / redeploy and threaten flanks/weak areas in the opponent. 

 

I am currently of the mindset that MSU Vanguard are the way to play -

                       1, it helps minimize morale losses.

                       2, when retreating from combat, the fewer models you retreat with the more you have available to fire at said assault unit. 

Time will tell though.

[Teun135]

I'm heading over to a friends house to test out a 2000 point matched play list. I'm going pure AdMech to make it easier to get better rankings in ITC :)

 

I'm taking:

 

Spearhead Detachment-

--Magos Dominus

--2 Onager Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers and extra H. Stubbers

--2 Units Kastelans (1 fist/incinerator pair, 1 blasterhand pair)

 

Battalion Detachment-

--Belasarius Cawl

--Magos Dominus

--2 Five-man Ranger Squads with 2 TA snipers each

--2 Ten-man Vanguard Squads, one with 3 Arc and the other with 3 Plasma

--2 Cybernetica Datasmiths

--1 Five-man Squad of Fulgurite Electropriests

 

 

Comes out to 1987 points the way I have them kitted, giving me some wiggle room if I want to add/drop wargear here or there. The plan is to have a strong backline of Onagers, Rangers, and Kastellans supported by Cawl and his underlings. I plan to have them protected (marginally) by some simple Vanguard squads. I am hoping that twenty of them will be enough to tie up charging units long enough for my counter-charge units (the Fulgurite Electropriests and Handy Kastellans) to get a charge off. 

 

It's kind of hard to stay mono-faction, especially since we have literally nothing in the way of transports, but I'm hoping it works out! I'll post results after the game.

[Vel'Cona]

That list looks quite a bit like the one I was pondering, with the notable exception of the Electropriests (yes I know, I'm still hating on them even in 8th).  :)

[Teun135]

Although I lost the game by a single point (First Blood) I wanted to share some insights!

 

We have a ton of drops. Without transports, or deepstriking units, we almost always have the most to deploy. At least it seems like it will be that way. With each datasmith and HQ being a separate drop, in addition to the multiples we have to take of single model units to fill our Detachments, it makes it really hard to get few enough drops to get the first turn. Hope you are lucky on your sieze rolls!

 

Canticles are great. Either pick them and don't worry about it, or roll for them (but only if you have Cawl for the roll adjustment). They give us some solid buffs. Still wouldn't mind some psykers and transports, though.

 

After playing a game with them, I am actually really impressed by Fulgurite priests. They survived a ridiculous amount of DeathWatch shooting, from heavy bolters and frag cannons, purely based on their invul / fanatic rolls. I only lost 2 in the game, and one was to a Thunder Hammer rather than a heavy bolter or frag cannon. I plan on picking up a few boxes more of them in the future :) There was one stubborn sergeant with a storm shield that refused to die, until I charged him with Electropriests and inflicted a mortal wound on him. Which supercharged the unit's invul saves! Too bad it was the last turn at this point... but that was my fault for not deploying them as aggressively as I could have. I thought they would end up being a lot more fragile.

 

Onagers with Neutron Lasers are nuts, especially when supported by Cawl. Watch Captain Artemis heroically (or stupidly) tried to lead the charge for a killteam and tank some of their wounds, but vaporized under one combined volley from two Onagers. Which then went on to decimate the unit with their Heavy Stubbers. They also killed a Venerable Dreadnought and a number of regular killteam dudes.

 

The Onagers going toe-to-toe with a Venerable Dreadnought might have gone worse for me if he had more lascannons. As it was, Cawl was more than capable of keeping up the pace of repairs, ensuring the Onagers were topped off the entire battle. If I struggle with it in the future, I may just be tempted to keep my Dominus units closer together. I definitely want more Onagers.

 

 

Kastelans with Incedine Combustors are great for ripping through units at close range. The Vanguard Vets my opponent took were wiped to a man by them in the first volley, despite being behind the cover of ruins. The following turn the remaining vet tried to get out of their range, but with 8" move and 12" range he didn't make it far enough... and then I rolled double boxcars on the auto-hits  Needless to say, the remaining Vanguard Vet was completely immolated.

 

Phosphor-hands Kastellans are good, but really need Datasmiths and Dominus or Cawl to bump it up to -Really- good status. Hitting on 4+s would have really sucked had I not been rerolling 1's. Well, maybe it wouldn't have really sucked, but it definitely would not be as good as they were. I never did end up switching protocols... they were taking so much fire I decided they worked better as wound-tanks! The repulsor field is hilarious with Aegis protocol active... A dude with a combi-melta ended up having the melta reflected back at him and annihilated him. Great guffaws of laughter ensued.

 

Skitarii Rangers were pretty much worthless. The TA requires you to not have moved, which definitely limits your options if you can't set them up exactly where you want them during deployment. They really need a scout/infiltrate type rule to be worth it.

 

Vanguard were a bit better... even though they pretty much just died in droves, that was their express purpose when I took them. Plasma definitely trumps Arc rifles in most situations, though having Arc rifles snapping shots at Drop Pods and Dreadnoughts was semi-effective. The plasma burned through a killteam though, so points well spent. 

 

I think the larger squads are fine, over the small ones, for a few reasons:

 

A) With split fire now available to everybody, its too easy to split off a couple weapons worth of shooting at a small unit. This could potentially wipe the entire unit by virtue of morale alone.

B) Larger squads make the investiture of a Data Tether worthwile, which can help mitigate morale losses.

C) Conga lines are back, so the bigger the unit, the easier it is to get your toe into an aura AOE while keeping your weapons in range.

 

I found the aura from a Onager's Wide Band Data Tether particularly useful to help bump their leadership even more. I lost an entire Ranger squad after three wounds thanks to morale, whereas with my Vanguard I never lost a single model from morale, probably for the above reasons.

 

There, that's my preliminary thoughts on Admech after playing my first game with them. Hope you guys find them interesting