Ad Mech in 8th Edition

[Silentz]

I think Ammonius is right. The intent seems that you have to choose before the battle starts - you EITHER pick a canticle every turn, OR randomly generate one every turn.

Strongly disagree.

 

You may pick a canticle from the list each turn.  Alternatively you can roll each turn. It's clearly designed to let you have the one or two you want but have to fish for it again with dice rolls, modified by Cawl. 

[Ammonius]

 

*snip*

I'm also unsure what you mean?

 

I think I may have chosen my wording poorl--

 

I think Ammonius is right. The intent seems that you have to choose before the battle starts - you EITHER pick a canticle every turn, OR randomly generate one every turn.

Uh Oh...

*snip*

You may pick a canticle from the list each turn.  Alternatively you can roll each turn. It's clearly designed to let you have the one or two you want but have to fish for it again with dice rolls, modified by Cawl. 

 

There we go! Thank you Silentz!

 

My fellow Magos, I apologize if I was unclear. What I had intended to point out was that the RAW, you pick whether to roll or choose a Canticle at the start of each battle round (which is the 8th Edition term equivalent to "turn" or "game turn" from previous editions). The catch is that you cannot choose the same thing twice. 

[Silentz]

Yes.  Must stop referring to Battle Rounds as Turns.

 

 

My problem with Canticles is that you pick/roll it at the start of the Battle Round so if you go 2nd, you're picking them at the start of your opponent's turn every round.  It's such a non-typical place to be thinking of making a decision that I forget all the time.   Only remember when he shoots at me or something I think "Canticles!!!"  

[Ammonius]

Yes, and with the transport/ deployment issue we have right now, going second happens pretty often.

 

I have resorted to the "piece of paper on the turn die" method.

[Charlo]

Okay so we agree  excellent.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think Ammonius is right. The intent seems that you have to choose before the battle starts - you EITHER pick a canticle every turn, OR randomly generate one every turn.

 

No one would ever say "I roll" then... when you pick you get something usefull for at least 2 or 3 turns, if you roll you will most likely get something that does not help you at the time you roll it

[Heliomanes]

My bad, gents! I think I was thinking about the psyker rules when I read through the canticles ruleset and thought they played by the same logic. They too have the inexplicable option to choose or generate randomly. Thanks for clarifying :)

[lancerusso]

Played a fantastic game against an ork player who had:

 

Squad of 12 bikes. 10+ loota squad. Some 5 weird artillery goblin things.

 

4 trukks and 12 Boyz each. 5 MegaNobs?( ork termies?) A warboss and a weirdboy. And a dakkabomber. I think that's all.

 

I had my previous list, but without Cawl. Brought a Battalion (+3CP) rather than a brigade, and 5 rustalkers and 5 infiltrators and an enginseer.

 

Organised my ironstriders into a two man squad of autocannons, and two squads of two taser Dragoons.

 

Three onagers like usual. Two sniper rangers, two 5 man 2 arc vanguard and two 5 man 1 plas vanguard.

 

Also brought a vindicate assassin for -1 CP.

 

I seized. Autocannons and Icarus ripped through the bikers, and killed the whole squad when you account for morale phase.

 

Phosphor murderised five lootas, neutron laser killed two meganobz.

Snipers and vindicare took shots at his warboss and did a couple of wounds.

 

Dragoons moved forward and took random shots with their serpentas, arc rifles wounded a couple of trukks. Plas and rad carbines did some minor extra helping vs bikers.

 

His turn 1 his dakkabomber wiped one squad of arc rifles. His meganobz Da Jumped into my backfield, and failed charge. His trucks advanced but didn't do much other than a few wounds. Took couple of wounds off onager.

 

My next turn, the ruststalkers charged his meganobz and killed two, but died on his turn. Piled wounds onto two of the trucks, and both my dragoon pairs multi assaulted 2 different trucks each. Killed two trucks with AMAZINF taser rolls, my infiltrators I charged at trukks too but misactivated them, letting him interrupt with the now dismounted boyz and slaughter the infiltrators.

Icarus onager killed the dakkabomber in one!!!!

 

More pain onto his artillery and lootas.

 

By turn 3 I had killed the meganobz with the neutron laser, taser Dragoons were on full wounds due to enginseer, and killed some twenty plus Boyz and two trucks total.

 

One twchpruwst signgle handedly held back 16 Boyz in cc and wasn't dead by the end. Legend. Almost killed his warboss with sniper overwatch. Going into turn 4 my onager had sights on his warboss and would have killed it probably, but he cconceded.

 

Probably should have sniped his weirdboy first IMO, and activated the weaker infiltrators before dragoons.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Cool report!

Lucky you seized, I had a lot of trouble against them in my first game ever against the greenskins when they stole the initiative...

 

With the snipers I think you are right. Get rid of the "softer" support characters first before shooting at his tougher ones.

[lancerusso]

Cool report!

Lucky you seized, I had a lot of trouble against them in my first game ever against the greenskins when they stole the initiative...

 

With the snipers I think you are right. Get rid of the "softer" support characters first before shooting at his tougher ones.

Yeah! Couple of vindicating moments were great, like overcharging a vanguard plas and killing an ork biker- despite it dying to gets hot. 27 points killed for 24 of mine. Worth! I think Cawl is only worth bringing if you have cult Mech units with BS4+. A simple dominus with rr1s seems sufficient with 3+ to hit skitarii- and I can bring more skitarii to make up for it. I think trading 6CP for a better army build is important- I take back my liking of the brigade

[Yoda79]

You cant make a list while thinking only point wise. Usually its being said a good list is a list able to deal with most enemies. I start saying this to open a talk about Cawl.

 

250 points might seem a big deal. But let me explain why i use him in every single list.

I have already started considering our hq s are amtax in our list and i made the same conclusion when i was adding points. Why not simply take a dominus. The answer became pretty clear after a number of games. When eventually i removed all other hq from my lists and kept only cawl.

 

1) Smaller lists and up to 1500 was my first issue with cawl. I was thinking he as expensive for them. And for a 1k list i pressume a dominus might be better. Still

 

2) wont have a good list if you dont have 2 phosp robots. That 18 base 6 -2 1 -cover is your best anti horde. Without Cawl is not that good even with 36 shoots. So to begin with Robots need Cawl.

 

3) If you really play competitive games you already have anti air onagers. I used them in 7th i use them in 8th and they are superb in 8th. Since we need to fit lots of things inside a list i consider antiair onagers filling 2 roles. Anti air and anti horde since they are 10 shots. Again since it will become 4+ to hit ground the rerolls are a must.

 

4) sooner or later you will all understand Ad mech atm with only these hqs can only perform a good gunline. That said our raw power is dakka. You definetly have a good dakka but only with full rerolls.

 

5) You will soon face the issue how many points i need to waste to protect my gun line. How many are enough so i can have 2 rounds of shooting beforenan orc or Ba breach my lines. There is a key decision for all ad mech lists. And since we got mainly low toughness counter melee units you must seriouspy consider how many points will do the job for you. Cawl provide the best buff and the best tankish unit when your gun line gets breached.

 

So why would i not get Cawl why would i prefer 135 dominus and any melee unitsmfor the rest of 115. There is no cmbination in our army where a dominus and a melee unit total 250 will bring the effctiv. Of Cawl. Maybe if we get a low cost buffer hq in our cdex.maybe if we get melee usage hq. Then we can talk options min maxing etc. For a tournament gun line where every single buff counts dont make a list without Cawl.

 

As always all my posts are my personal experience and opinion. Thanks for reading.

[Heliomanes]

I agree with you, Yoda. Well put. If you take a glance at the highly competitive ETC-lists, pretty much all of the Mechanicus additions consist of Cawl, a bunch of phosphorbots and some dunestriders. So. What do we do to distract the opponent and shield our massive gunline from harm? I'm going to test out using conscripts, dragoons and a knight for just that purpose. They can all wrap around the firebase - and the knight with his little ostrich buddies can do a distracting charge while the aegis protocols charge up if necessary. What do you use?

[dogfender]

I am really hoping that with the inevitable merged codex we get some goodies to help widen the range and options. As pointed out, every list consists of the same key items to be successful. I think it would be a lateral move for the codex to move away from the crutch that is Cawl, despite Cawl wanting to be top ad mech dog ;)

 

While its not possible because of the current set up, I actually think how the GSC neophytes are set up is pretty neat: 2 "mini" heavy weapons and 2 special weapons. Its the extra firepower of the 2heavy that acts like a heavy weapons team, makes it feel more ad mech to me. a larger cadre of weapons in every unit.  Also would have mirrored some artwork with gun lines.

[Yoda79]

I will give you my list. In have not yet lost with it even if i slighlty abjusted between games till its last form.

 

I ll try to include my decisions each step so you might get the feeling i took decisions.

 

Using this building up from 1500 lists towards 2k 2500.

 

Spearhead +1cp

 

Hq

Cawl buffer and defender of my gun line

 

Fast

1x2 dragoon taser lance only. Set to guard one side. If not engaded run for bjectives harash screen. One unit

 

Elites

Datasmith defender of gunline with Cawl change protocols heal bots

F electrop x6 counter unit hide till engaged Cawl or assault if against dakka armies

 

Heavys

1x2 range bots

3x onagers neutron

2x onagers icarus

 

Battalion +3 cp Imperial guard

 

Hq

 

Commander plasma pistol

Lord commisar plasma pistol

 

Troops

3x10 Infantry

2x5 tempestor

 

Heavy ad mech no canticles

1x2 melee robots flamers.

 

This is 1999k if i go more i add fw knight lancer 485 + 1F priest 16 points 2500 precice.

 

7 Cp i usually drop my tempestors 2nd and third round. Always for line breaker and objectives. Always my ranged robots start in thenplace they will remain after second round for 36 shots. And i always try to get shroud. If not after round 1 reroll 1s in melle can be of use.

Yes you can use a dominus and play healing with Cawl can work. And you might wanna remove IG . So you might be looking something like 320 point removed and get dominus 135 and another set of dragoons. Im not really sure how you will olay wth no deepstrike or if yu will be able to use 2x dragoons instead of 32 ig models. But can happen. Dont forget you still might want to get 4x2 dragoons instead f the knight and i want to also. More buffs more fluff. Doable and i can agree the issue is beyond 2k you will definetly cme against something nasty. The only reason i use non ad mech for so many points. If you start debating about ig please present 320 points ad mech with 2 deep strike units and 32 bodies no moral no casualties screener.

 

Tip :i tried all units and many combs. Cant pay 135 each hq cant pay 120 for inflitrators and you must have for many maps and above all cant pay 107 points for my fvorite rangers with arq and omnisp.

 

As always this is my play style there is a viable dominus plasma rush team with vanguard detroyers and onagers but its v expensive for my taste.

I also pressume 5man x2plasma vanguards lots of them with dominus can actually do a great moving team but it required tons of testing and since we already got that neutron onager i prefer this build.

Lastly since someone asked me in a forums i ll say it here. Yes a Cawl,Dominus,onagers,melee robots and dragoons might become the best possible choisesoon enough. Still havent test such a combination but i already making a list to test . Have fun...

[Heliomanes]

Interesting list! I'm transitioning my Mechanicum army in 30k over to a 40k list. I made a knight house with some converted skitarii clans bonded to them a while ago, and with the incoming FW book I'm getting the chance to combine my armies. Can't wait.

I'm testing this list tomorrow. any suggestions or comments? Or something you'd like me to test?

Spearhead.
Cawl
4 lance dragoons
3 phosphor kastelans
3 phosphor kastelans
Datasmith
Icarus onager

Patrol.
Comissar + 20 conscripts (bubblewrap for my bots and a use for my 30k thralls)

Superheavy aux
Knight Acheron

The general idea is to bubble wrap my robots with thralls, while the Acheron and dragoons can either screen or charge ahead as a pretty loud diversion. The real strength from the list comes in turn 2, when the robots get their protocols up and running, and thus can fire 108 s6 shots per turn if left unmolested. They are still just bs4+, so getting rerolls to hit from Cawl is huge.

[Yoda79]

I would swap 3 robots for 2 neutron onagers. Rest of point could be used for tempestor unit for deep strike options. Or maybe a commander for orders or even a second group infantry.

 

1) Robots shoot /9 shots at different targets so 6*9shots second round should be enough.

2) icarus 10 shots must be targeted at one target since its one weapon platform

3) 2 neutron onagers might be good for heavier targets. Dont forget 2*3 stubber with onagers.

4) Robots cant move after secomd round. Onagers and their stubbers and Cawl can always move if need...

Tip :Nice list i would argue a bit for v low cp and in the near future command points will be more important.keep in mind.

[Tiger9gamer]

Someone on dakka made the suggestion of using dragoons as infantry screens and the like in place of infantry, which sounds like a cool idea until we look at RL prices. still, a tactic i thought I would share with you.

[Suzuteo]

That was actually me. Some time in June, I pointed out that AdMech's key weaknesses were in mobility, close combat, and seizing/holding objectives. (Well, and Psychic Phase, but we can't solve all of our problems.)

 

All this pointed to the need for a screen. At the time, everyone was using Vanguard. Mathhammer told me that Vanguard are overcosted, so I cut them out of my list entirely and replaced them with Dragoons. I figured that if we were going to rely on Vanguard, who died pretty much in single rounds of shooting, we might as well use Dragoons instead, since they are tougher and faster. Really, even if they advance all day and never taser a thing, they fulfill their role. Something has to run out to get objectives after the artillery clears it.

 

We also had a phase where everyone was doing Conscript blobs with Celestine and 6-8 Crawlers. The idea is to move the blobs, move the Crawlers, shoot, rinse and repeat. I still think Conscripts are a valid alternative if you just want bodies, but a lot of us felt pressured to table the opponent with the Crawler strategy.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Suzuteo

[DeStinyFiSh]

I understand your ideas behind those lists, but it makes me sad that it is just normal for people to add other armys to get the best out of everything...

[Heliomanes]

Take solace in the fact that the massive influx of 30k Mechanicum models that FW has hinted at will in all likelyhood fix that issue. Remember that range has a lot more units than the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus subfactions combined. Including unique transports.

[lancerusso]

The Dragon screen I've also fixated on as the go to strategy. It's also imperative that you not let there be any 9 inch gaps in your half of the table by spreading out your snipers, counter chargers and artillery. I think cawl is uneccesary, and I'll explain why next time I post.

[Heliomanes]

You magnificant tease. Waiting in anticipation.

[Suzuteo]

The Dragon screen I've also fixated on as the go to strategy. It's also imperative that you not let there be any 9 inch gaps in your half of the table by spreading out your snipers, counter chargers and artillery. I think cawl is uneccesary, and I'll explain why next time I post.

 

Well, I think Cawl is necessary for most competitive decks. He increases your average dice roll from 3.5 to 4.2. This is a 20% improvement in hit outcomes; not merely in shooting, since if you miss, you deal 0 damage. Then there's reliable Shroudpsalm, his ability to repair, and his strong CC ability; he's my last line of defense usually.

 

I think the only real objection is that he's not very fun for fluff reasons. To ameloriate this, I always encourage people to make your own Archmagos.

 

I understand your ideas behind those lists, but it makes me sad that it is just normal for people to add other armys to get the best out of everything...

 

I'm no purist though. Most of my lists have a Knight Crusader or a Scion kamikaze unit. That being said, nothing in Imperium actually does exactly what Dragoons do. Bikes and Sentinels come close, but they aren't great in a fight. Knights are 5-7 times more expensive and don't deny as much ground. Eh.

[Charlo]

I've only played one game but without Cawl my list would not have been half as deadly as it was. I had loads of dakka but with most being a 4+ to hit it's unreliable.

 

250pts is nothing to give you a huge bubble of rerolls, easy Canticle fishing and a solid combatant to tackle any unsuspecting warlords that may enter your backfield. Cawl killed a Daemon Prince in my last game after tanking him like a boss.

[Yoda79]

No Cawl you better of playing IG . More options all 4+ . As for reroll 1s from dominus for me its a situational buff maybe for a 2+ antiair onager and mainly for a rushing group of plasma. I prefer using dominus on my plasma vanguards and destros cause rerolling all would be certain death. I almost always overcharge plasma especially vanguard. But its a full mobile list no range robots and using rusttalkers ,dragoons and plasma. Not so effective as onagers and robots but far from static. Unfortu every single time i field 270 points of destroyers wont last a second round. It s an easy decision target for any enemy.

 

I m really trying to remove ig from my list. I like having dragoons that are more durable and in can buff them but i cant seem to get the same results. I always got 2 andbi dont see much more usage with 6. They are fast durable but cant compare orders of ig. Durable yes usually get tarpit and stay in melle wiy any good unit. And as for mobility they are fast but wont compare with a 5 man scion drop and obj claiming.

 

350 ig is extremely better than 4 exrta dragoons and a dominus. Having 2 -3 always a must.

 

There is a talk going on and its becoming clear to me that command points is a mean of balance in the game but also a super buff as seen from the first codexes. You dont care for an extra reroll or the generic cps but faction wise or mission wise csn turn the tide. I even consider Creed in my list for those 2 extra points and you wont find a worthy battalion in ad mech.

 

We talking about competitive list building when with limited points you try to maximize your options on the table.Propably everything will change with a codex but thats a year w8ing as i see it for ad mech.