Ad Mech in 8th Edition

[lancerusso]

I've only played one game but without Cawl my list would not have been half as deadly as it was. I had loads of dakka but with most being a 4+ to hit it's unreliable.

This is the point. Cawl is MANDATORY if you have kastellans and kataphrons. But since skitarii all have 3+ to hit, you really don't need much more than a TPD.

 

As amazing cawl is with a few onagers and ballistarii, he's only a little better than a TPD, going from 77% hit chance to 88%( though this value obviously scales by how many units are buffed).

 

For roughly the same points as one cawl, you can bring a TPD and two twin autocannon ironstriders or a single onager. More firepower overall is better, especially since it will be being boosted by the TPD anyway. TPDs mean you can spread the buff more around your army. You can get the same buff from a canticle anyway!

 

Having to bunch up with cawl is quite a downside in an objective based game, and cawl' s shooting is terribly short ranged. He excels at getting up close with kastellans and wrecking face while superlasering things. His canticle +/-1 can be circumvented by building an army more flexibly able to take advantage of all the different canticles. You don't want to have to roll on canticle at all if you have to, it's only a 50% chance of shroudpsalm if you roll it with cawl, which is certainly not a probability you should balance your odds of winning on.

 

I've seen much more success using our MSU and MSC capacity to flood the board and deny deep strikes, cap objectives and gloriously charge with dragons and vanguard, as well as volleys of rad shot and neutron lasers.

 

Ironstriders and dragoons are so valuable from their lack of deteriorating profile (as are kastellans), but onagers are so much tougher and resistant to OHKO than both strides and kastellans. Onagers are pretty much the only thing you should be healing with dominii since they are the only thing with a changing profile and hence will need the heals to keep them in tip top condition.

 

Strides are so mobile and punch tougher things in CC pretty well, as well as stomping through hordes relatively well. Definitely mechanized ad mech this ed.

 

I'm rambling, I don't get much time to post these days

[DeStinyFiSh]

 

I've only played one game but without Cawl my list would not have been half as deadly as it was. I had loads of dakka but with most being a 4+ to hit it's unreliable.

This is the point. Cawl is MANDATORY if you have kastellans and kataphrons. But since skitarii all have 3+ to hit, you really don't need much more than a TPD.

 

As amazing cawl is with a few onagers and ballistarii, he's only a little better than a TPD, going from 77% hit chance to 88%( though this value obviously scales by how many units are buffed).

 

For roughly the same points as one cawl, you can bring a TPD and two twin autocannon ironstriders or a single onager. More firepower overall is better, especially since it will be being boosted by the TPD anyway. TPDs mean you can spread the buff more around your army. You can get the same buff from a canticle anyway!

 

Having to bunch up with cawl is quite a downside in an objective based game, and cawl' s shooting is terribly short ranged. He excels at getting up close with kastellans and wrecking face while superlasering things. His canticle +/-1 can be circumvented by building an army more flexibly able to take advantage of all the different canticles. You don't want to have to roll on canticle at all if you have to, it's only a 50% chance of shroudpsalm if you roll it with cawl, which is certainly not a probability you should balance your odds of winning on.

 

I've seen much more success using our MSU and MSC capacity to flood the board and deny deep strikes, cap objectives and gloriously charge with dragons and vanguard, as well as volleys of rad shot and neutron lasers.

 

Ironstriders and dragoons are so valuable from their lack of deteriorating profile (as are kastellans), but onagers are so much tougher and resistant to OHKO than both strides and kastellans. Onagers are pretty much the only thing you should be healing with dominii since they are the only thing with a changing profile and hence will need the heals to keep them in tip top condition.

 

Strides are so mobile and punch tougher things in CC pretty well, as well as stomping through hordes relatively well. Definitely mechanized ad mech this ed.

 

I'm rambling, I don't get much time to post these days

 

 

I can nly agree here, despite the fact that Carl does not only buff via the reroll, but also has a lot more benefits, so even without Kastellans or Kataphrons he is worth every single point.

 

However, I have to admit that I was thinking about a "mono" Skitarii list (TPD as well of course) a lot lately. Skitarii add much more to our army than the Cult units at the moment, and, as you have written, points saved on Carl can be used to get additional long range fire power.

I dont think I will be missing Kastellans to much, since Onagers can throw out a lot of firepower as well. Kataphrons are not our best bet anyway, so I will not miss these.

Fulgurites are realy scary, but not exactly neccessary.

 

I think my next game might be just full of Skitarii

[Shinespider]

I hope the eventual codex attaches some neat benefits to the Skitarii keyword to reinforce that they are a distinct entity. 

[lancerusso]

I hope the eventual codex attaches some neat benefits to the Skitarii keyword to reinforce that they are a distinct entity.

This, oh so much. If go so far to argue we should almost be our own codex, if they released as many kits as they did for the Primaris Marines...

[Yoda79]

I cant imagine a game nowdays and after playing 10+ 8th edition vs BA ,DA , necrons ,2*Deldar ,eldar ,orc, tau , chaos ,tyr. Not to include 2melee and 2 range robots minimum. There has not been a higher priority for enemies than robots. If you let the Robots alive you loose. And starting with that superb 1+ armor 4+ invu sending mortals back on 5-6 has no equal.

 

Yes you can focus a list with 4 +range or only 4+melee and i have such a list for various purposes, but will not leave my house for a game with no kastelans. Onagers are perfect , dragoons fast and good but ad mech has only durable robot and equal to none. I dont take Cawl for destroyers as i said i buff plasma only rerolling ones. I take him for Robots. 250 well worth it for what he brings.

 

As for the commend -1+1 not important sorry but its funny. Making a list that takes advantage of all canticles right? Thats far from competitve games sorry. Wont start debating when its clear making a good list is a list able to stand vs various problems and enemies. Not making a list just to spam each round canticles. You dont have either way the tools to do it. Maybe if you had good melee cheap units ,transports etc maybe. You use canticles and all can be of use but in many rounds you need the same more than one round(vs tau or orc). Thats the catch if you could pick one twice maybe but only once wont cut it. Its not a puzzle to solve how to fit all canticles. And you wont win nothing in melee with +1 str or electromancy or reroll ones with main hitter dominus. Can help ofc but you dont want cawl one of the best melee tanks and wanna play all canticles . Good luck but thats all talking. Massing vanguard and spamming 3 0 1 shots pro plan. Come and i ll shoot my robots secomd round 9 shots / squad all hits rerolled and you ll have 2squads/ robot . Good luck coming to kill me with vanguard +1 melee. Wont pass the flamer to begin with.

Wont start talking about serious melee armies vs vanguards and dominus with dragoons and skitarii. Butter.... its a strikt point fitting list making trying to win vs various situations. Wont be perfect and yes it good to fit your playstyle but you wont win ad mech melee. Sorry GW so far consider you more dakka than melee at least point wise. Ig got better troop options ad mech dakka marines elite and fliers etc etc. And i prefer to in my mind a Cadia defence where obviously we use the best we fan rather try to make ad mech a melee force or a soldier bases army. All opinions are good but at least try to play before you state grand plans and results m. Lancerusso

[Yoda79]

** map and objectives mentioned . Robots clear all objectives even in cover. Dragoons rush them scions deep strike. Your opion taking 120 point paper infi?? Melee robots cawl amd onager can always move. Unless if you still try to convince we gonna rush objectives with 100 point vanvuard and dominus and we ll get a better result. You can take 2k vanguard walking wont get you no flag ever. Edited August 8, 2017 by Yoda79

[lancerusso]

I have results to prove it, as in not one of the batreps I've posted to this thread has had kastellans and I've done perfectly fine. Maybe it is just my local meta.

 

Kastellans get -1 to shooting if they move and onagers don't. 120 point onagers vs 110 point kastellans. Onagers have 6 phos shots and kastwllans have 9 or 18 each, but have almost half as many wounds as an onagers. I know what I prefer.

 

 

Also, you're literally building a strategy around a singular 50/50 chance with +/-1 to canticle and trying to roll shroudpsalm. Thats not reliable.

 

Reroll 1s to hit perform excellently with taser units despite their terrible ap, so the dragoons benefit really well. Having one turn of dedicated charging to hold back the enemy for your immense artiwllry base to keep shooting maximally is brilliant. The shroudpsalm save can be ignored if you deployed smartly into cover, too.

[Yoda79]

I have posted my list i use 5 onagers 2 dragoons in a unit electrop etc. I use all canticles and range robots dont move after i set them thats why i got 2 rest of army can move but usually vs heavy melee i mainly defend. I have not really lost with this army and i wish you the best with your setup. I gladly pay 115 extra points for Cawl and since i only bring one hq he will be my prio pick for 2k+ lists. Good luck ith yours!

[Clingy]

What's your army list Yoda? I can't seem to see where you posted it.

 

I'm currently putting a 2k list together. Are you advocating the use of fist bots?

[Yoda79]

Page17 post 414. I use a unit of 2 fist flamer robots and 2 range ones. Yes.

[Tiger9gamer]

I have posted my list i use 5 onagers 2 dragoons in a unit electrop etc. I use all canticles and range robots dont move after i set them thats why i got 2 rest of army can move but usually vs heavy melee i mainly defend. I have not really lost with this army and i wish you the best with your setup. I gladly pay 115 extra points for Cawl and since i only bring one hq he will be my prio pick for 2k+ lists. Good luck ith yours!

yea, I gotta jump on the cawl-cab too. I can tell you, after using two different dominii for 14pl instead of cawl for 13, I much prefer cawl just for that little difference. I gotta say that even with onagers I find myself rolling more two's to hit than I would ever care to admit, so having cawl re-roll both ones and twos work wonders for accuracy. With kastelans it's even better. next to cawl I had a unit of 2 protector protocol robots under cawl outwork and out perform 4 protector protocol robots under a tech priest dominus only because of the re-rolls to hit. I mean, sure you can shove more guns in a list, but if your guns cannot hit what is the point? I would prefer near guaranteed hits over more dakka any day. 

 

also I suspect this may be a moot point when our codex drops, as I can see the Archmagos trait being passed by a stratagem like it is in the spice marine codex.

[Suzuteo]

This is my list:

 

Spearhead Detachment - 1068

 

HQ - 250

1x Belisarius Cawl

 

Elite - 52

1x Cybernetica Datasmith - Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

 

Heavy Support - 766

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

 

Outrider Detachment - 407

 

HQ - 135

1x Tech-Priest Dominus

 

Fast Attack - 272

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 525

 

Lord of War - 525

Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Meltagun

 

Total: 2000 points

5 Command Points

 

100% mechanized. My only real gripe is that I have to pay the Dominus tax to get the Dragoons separated into four units. I could have two units of three, but they won't cover enough ground. Hopefully, we will get a cheaper HQ, maybe even the Arcana Mechanicum back.

 

At the very least, I want the stratagem to manually detonate vehicles that they teased. Kamikaze your Dragoons right into a Conscript blob. BOOM.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Suzuteo

[dogfender]

Have some questions about vanguard.

5 or 10 man

Data tether or omnispex or both?

Plasma or arc?

Goad or maul? Pistol?

[Heliomanes]

People using vanguard tend to just do naked 5 man squads to fill up troops slots so far in this edition. Hoping that the Codex will change that.

[Yoda79]

This is my list:

 

Spearhead Detachment - 1068

 

HQ - 250

1x Belisarius Cawl

 

Elite - 52

1x Cybernetica Datasmith - Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

 

Heavy Support - 766

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

 

Outrider Detachment - 407

 

HQ - 135

1x Tech-Priest Dominus

 

Fast Attack - 272

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 525

 

Lord of War - 525

Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Meltagun

 

Total: 2000 points

5 Command Points

 

100% mechanized. My only real gripe is that I have to pay the Dominus tax to get the Dragoons separated into four units. I could have two units of three, but they won't cover enough ground. Hopefully, we will get a cheaper HQ, maybe even the Arcana Mechanicum back.

 

At the very least, I want the stratagem to manually detonate vehicles that they teased. Kamikaze your Dragoons right into a Conscript blob. BOOM.

Dont take the outrider dont pay dominus. Use the dragoons in groups of 2 in the 2 fast slots. . Wont give first bloods s easy and it usuall paus of 2-3unit not single. Even in 2 groups can cover 2 sides. Its more than enough. 135 can give you counter melle unit or inflitr. For more screen harash line breaker obj cap.

[lancerusso]

 

This is my list:

 

Spearhead Detachment - 1068

 

HQ - 250

1x Belisarius Cawl

 

Elite - 52

1x Cybernetica Datasmith - Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

 

Heavy Support - 766

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

 

Outrider Detachment - 407

 

HQ - 135

1x Tech-Priest Dominus

 

Fast Attack - 272

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 525

 

Lord of War - 525

Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Meltagun

 

Total: 2000 points

5 Command Points

 

100% mechanized. My only real gripe is that I have to pay the Dominus tax to get the Dragoons separated into four units. I could have two units of three, but they won't cover enough ground. Hopefully, we will get a cheaper HQ, maybe even the Arcana Mechanicum back.

 

At the very least, I want the stratagem to manually detonate vehicles that they teased. Kamikaze your Dragoons right into a Conscript blob. BOOM.

Dont take the outrider dont pay dominus. Use the dragoons in groups of 2 in the 2 fast slots. . Wont give first bloods s easy and it usuall paus of 2-3unit not single. Even in 2 groups can cover 2 sides. Its more than enough. 135 can give you counter melle unit or inflitr. For more screen harash line breaker obj cap.

Yes, yes, yes. This is the way to go.

 

 

 

Today I did a battalion with 3 onagers, two autocannons strides in one squad and two squads of two dragoons. Two dominii, two sniper ranger squads and infiltrators. They did excellently, but I brought flamer sisters of silence, their rhino, and inquisitor, a jokaero and a vindicare. They did nothing. The vindicare rolled ones on all three of the shooting attacks he did. The flamers killed seven guardsmen but they died to lasgun volley. The inquisitor psyker abilities was helpful but ultimately pointless, as was the jokaero.

[dogfender]

People using vanguard tend to just do naked 5 man squads to fill up troops slots so far in this edition. Hoping that the Codex will change that.

well that is upsetting

[Riot Earp]

What is a good idea for anty psy? I´m undicided between culexus and inquistor greyfax. The Culexus substract two from the psytest the enemy takes but cannot denie itself.

Greyfax ads 1 to the deny test and can deny two powers. Also she gives all units in the imperium ld 10 in 6" which is pretty good. also you can play her in an aditional detachment with one 8 point acolyte without loosing canticles or an cp for aux detachment.

 

Whats your opinion?

[Riot Earp]

My mistake. Acolytes are elite...

[Yoda79]

Best lists can deal with almost all obstacles/enemies. I cant stress more the need for sisters greyfax and cullexus. But i believe i gotta start giving examples so most czn get a picture of 8th edition. Its not 7th. Example : vanguard,kataphrons ,robots onagers ,balistari.

 

Many say kataphrons dont worth it. They dont but for low point games they do. When you need mor shots andnthw ability to deal with various targets effectivelly plasma destroyers are nice. When a simple dominus can buff a destroyer plasma and vanguard plasma army yes below 1k its super in mobility and effectiveness. I preffer 270 3 destryers when i cant have points for 3 onagers. Same for ballistary. Especiallly when command points play now a bigger role. When you get a 2 point cp and you gotta decide one unit i prefer to shoot 3d6 buffed shots having a battalion in lower points. When your heavy slots saturate and they will cause gw didnt let onagers in units for a reason you ll run and buy ballistary to cover the slots. Points slots roles are important. Same goes for counter units like rustalkers and priests. In a mobile army id prefer rustalkers as counter but ina robot stationary gun line obviously priests.

 

Not breaking balls but the decision remains for range sisters melee sisters greyfax cullexus flamer sisters etc. I wanted to explain this philosophy cause many ask me a straight question like should i add cullexus or greyfax and how is my list. I wanna answer it but i cant and i dont want anyone to think im elitist snobbing and crap. You only need to understand this befor you ask something. How you play wht are they key factors of your playstyle. Options exists for playstyle as well. Lists are ok we cqn mix max improve but eventually you need to play the army. War convocation was easy to make in 7th and many wont tours while others finished last.

 

When we reach a point like this talk in here where if you all read it you can make a pretty cempetitive list you need to take into account when asking things that we going over details 5 points missing and extreme playstyle issues. So dont get me wrong when i try to ask more info. Key features for decisions...

 

You cant fit all. Point are specific for a reason. So in your question. There are 85 points cullexus 85 greyfax 60 range sisters 100 melee sisters and flamers sisters i dont remember the cost. If you are relatively new to the game and so far try to play a stationary gun line pick 2sister units. Again the decision might include if you got low count of melee robots or none the shield melee sisters to tnk and give also -1 . Etc etc a good combo is greyfax with a group of 60 pointers hidden. Now if you going hard core options transports cullexus inflitration and believe you ll mange to team them up where enemy phychers hide and eliminate them using also your inflitrators im 100% with you.

 

So decide start building role lists. I want a melee counter unit to survive a nic i got robots i dont chnge them cause i wanna push mid. Or i dont have to move but i need still a tanky unit what a great cheap units of sisters with shields and -1 can provide for 100 points. Decide roles your play style and then start improving. Same we did with ig troops. If you want meat shield cheap dead soldiers ig rocks. If you looking for snipers dont take any other than the rangers with arq. Decide and improve. If you see things working for you go for it.

 

Tip: if you are pro and bored to read this or it seems fun for you i prolly take solo cullexus (cheap). Greyfax with a unit of 60 pointers(option2). Greyfax and cullexus for pro skillz. And transport flamers cullexus for assault.

[Suzuteo]

 

This is my list:

 

Spearhead Detachment - 1068

 

HQ - 250

1x Belisarius Cawl

 

Elite - 52

1x Cybernetica Datasmith - Gamma Pistol, Power Fist

 

Heavy Support - 766

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher

2x Kastelan Robots - 2x Heavy Phosphor Blasters, 2x Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters

 

Outrider Detachment - 407

 

HQ - 135

1x Tech-Priest Dominus

 

Fast Attack - 272

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

1x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 525

 

Lord of War - 525

Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Meltagun

 

Total: 2000 points

5 Command Points

 

100% mechanized. My only real gripe is that I have to pay the Dominus tax to get the Dragoons separated into four units. I could have two units of three, but they won't cover enough ground. Hopefully, we will get a cheaper HQ, maybe even the Arcana Mechanicum back.

 

At the very least, I want the stratagem to manually detonate vehicles that they teased. Kamikaze your Dragoons right into a Conscript blob. BOOM.

Dont take the outrider dont pay dominus. Use the dragoons in groups of 2 in the 2 fast slots. . Wont give first bloods s easy and it usuall paus of 2-3unit not single. Even in 2 groups can cover 2 sides. Its more than enough. 135 can give you counter melle unit or inflitr. For more screen harash line breaker obj cap.

 

I used to run 3 units of 2 Dragoons, reasoning exactly as you do. It was illegal. Haha. Anyhow, I found the huge problem with 2 units of 3 is it's not enough to cover the larger deployment zones. AdMech usually goes second, and denying Deep Strike is extremely important. Furthermore, a unit of 3 is hard to charge with while avoiding Overwatch from a multi-charge. 

 

Now, replacing the Dominus with a smaller unit that can Deep Strike is something I am all ears for, but I really cannot figure out what to replace it with. Infiltrators have been underwhelming to me, and the optimal Scion Patrol Detachment costs 166 points. Infiltrators sort of suck right now; I would rather have two Eversors anyway, but the anti-horde is taken care of by the Knight and Kastelans.

 

Any other way to make use of 148 points? (I can drop the Meltagun from my Crusader.) Worst comes to worst, maybe I will buy another Neutron Crawler to bring the total up to five?

[Yoda79]

Spear head and outrider gives you 5 cp. We dont have codex but command points will be the way to go. Inuse 1x2 dragoons and wince i deploy defnsively going second bothers me not on deep strikes. Dragoon cover one side usually the one i see few enemies so can advance later on. They are 68 points each. I never take a unit for one role only. Its a war. 68 points can defend keep a side from deepnstrike but also move 10 advance take obj screen enemy charge tarpit blob nd even kill low defence targets.

I will not recommend only dragoons nor i oo get single dragoons on the field the provide first blood and cant do much more in my play style. I use an ad mech spearhead while i use battalion for rest of allies. Imperium battalion minimum 3 cp. 30-60 bodies ig greyfax sisters tempestus commisar bla bla bla cullexus assasins whatever. You wont get a better result than 20 conscripts or 50 with a commisar even if you spamm dragoons. Its not the point. Dragoons cover a back line side and are superb since if they are no more needed they are fast .

Whie troops are not . The area troops cover and since i took 2-3 objectives with one blop20-30 duable in 8th wont happen with dragoons. Tried to explain in the other post. All units in 8th play . They cam fill a role and i prefer to have orders ig (fall back shoot,advajce optiond) than dragoons ll over . Cheaper range mass shooters i seized the ther night and anihilated with 80 shots from guard.

And i need to have options. If enemy comes with heavy air??? Mss pshychers?? Dragoons dont do everything.

 

As for the knight. Crusader and ad mech i dont like at all. It was 7th. No synergy at all. 600 points. Why ??

Knights this edition to pay of their cost need to shot charge melee and againmevery single round to get their points worth. Why would i ever take Crusader in 8th when i got neutron lazer. 143 points with stubber and smoke. 11 hp 5+invu reroll 1s and taking canticles. Take 2. Then take whaever you like for melee. Robots for shooting?? Or at least if you really love them and dont care of the extr ounds and survivability at least get n errant. Or even better take fw knights. A lncer to increase melee or something like that.

 

Simple said 600 points for shooting 2onagers 2dakkastelans(500p). Can be healed can benefit from cantices. Better saves bettr survive 33 wounds split movemnt options. And rest 80-100 points take a rustalker group(vigiltors even). Its different ok knight is knight but cant have bet shooting rmy and take again shooting knight????

 

As always i try to give advice and pointers do what you like but i dont agree.8th edition that is.

[Suzuteo]

Spear head and outrider gives you 5 cp. We dont have codex but command points will be the way to go. Inuse 1x2 dragoons and wince i deploy defnsively going second bothers me not on deep strikes. Dragoon cover one side usually the one i see few enemies so can advance later on. They are 68 points each. I never take a unit for one role only. Its a war. 68 points can defend keep a side from deepnstrike but also move 10 advance take obj screen enemy charge tarpit blob nd even kill low defence targets.

I will not recommend only dragoons nor i oo get single dragoons on the field the provide first blood and cant do much more in my play style. I use an ad mech spearhead while i use battalion for rest of allies. Imperium battalion minimum 3 cp. 30-60 bodies ig greyfax sisters tempestus commisar bla bla bla cullexus assasins whatever. You wont get a better result than 20 conscripts or 50 with a commisar even if you spamm dragoons. Its not the point. Dragoons cover a back line side and are superb since if they are no more needed they are fast .

Whie troops are not . The area troops cover and since i took 2-3 objectives with one blop20-30 duable in 8th wont happen with dragoons. Tried to explain in the other post. All units in 8th play . They cam fill a role and i prefer to have orders ig (fall back shoot,advajce optiond) than dragoons ll over . Cheaper range mass shooters i seized the ther night and anihilated with 80 shots from guard.

And i need to have options. If enemy comes with heavy air??? Mss pshychers?? Dragoons dont do everything.

 

As for the knight. Crusader and ad mech i dont like at all. It was 7th. No synergy at all. 600 points. Why ??

Knights this edition to pay of their cost need to shot charge melee and againmevery single round to get their points worth. Why would i ever take Crusader in 8th when i got neutron lazer. 143 points with stubber and smoke. 11 hp 5+invu reroll 1s and taking canticles. Take 2. Then take whaever you like for melee. Robots for shooting?? Or at least if you really love them and dont care of the extr ounds and survivability at least get n errant. Or even better take fw knights. A lncer to increase melee or something like that.

 

Simple said 600 points for shooting 2onagers 2dakkastelans(500p). Can be healed can benefit from cantices. Better saves bettr survive 33 wounds split movemnt options. And rest 80-100 points take a rustalker group(vigiltors even). Its different ok knight is knight but cant have bet shooting rmy and take again shooting knight????

 

As always i try to give advice and pointers do what you like but i dont agree.8th edition that is.

 

Until we get codex stratagems, I don't think CP is worth the tax.

 

Dragoon does something no other Imperium unit can do as well. He pretty can only be used in an AdMech list because he needs Canticles.

 

I use a Crusader with Thermal Cannon (512 points, not 600) because he rounds out the army. He moves fast (12"), is durable, strong at CC, can do both anti-horde and anti-tank, and most importantly, he can function independently. I don't think that it's a problem that he cannot be healed or benefit from Canticles. In fact, it's sort of a strength. He does not need to stay close to the HQ to synergize, and he does not need to be protected like extra artillery would. And like you said, you have to move him close to attack the enemy in order to get the best use out of him. Cawl and TPD will not be able to follow him to heal him. Crusader is not a shooting Knight anymore either; Titanic Feet is a better melee weapon than Reaper in most situations. Like you said, this is not 7th edition. That being said, I am also considering a Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear (516 points) as an alternative.

 

When Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is banned, I swap the Crusader for 2 Kastelan, 2 Dragoon, Dominus, and a Scion Patrol Detachment with 6 Plasma Guns and Tempestor Prime. I think this list is actually weaker because I need to work extra hard to keep the extra Kastelans safe, and the Scions die very quickly.

[Heliomanes]

This is a really interesting discussion. You both make good points. Based on the feedback I've read here, I think the next list I'm going to test out is something like this:

Spearhead:

HQ:
Cawl

Troops:
5 rangers, 2 arquebuses, omnispex
5 rangers, 2 arquebuses, omnispex

Elites:
Datasmith
5 ruststalkers

FA:
2 dragoons
2 dragoons

HS:
3 kastelan robots with max phosphor
3 kastelan robots with max phosphor
Icarus onager
Neutron onager
Neutron onager

[Yoda79]

I have been reading suzuteo through out the forums. I only write here less noise. I dont disagree. He is the one made me test dragoons. And i see him write praises about them and he is correct. They are one of if not the gest choise of screener fast unit for us. Maybe he finds the synergy with the knight perfect. Like the baronial court with draggons in 7th. Dont get me wrong i want 2x2 dragoons in all my fast ad mech lists. What i wanna stress out is where lists are going. Spearhead solo detachments aux -1 etc are not valid for me. Not to mention options.

 

Knight is like the talk for Cawl many still talking about. Knight provides much need pimp attitude. Melee durability. I said ok. But i cant afford 520. And its the same for dragoons. I love them i agree their are superb but none are the best. I have dragoons but i cant have 6. I love the knight but my best hq buffs shooting so i prefer durability with my super big guns more hp etc. I need options so i prefer battalion with more cp need sooner than later. Need scions for map objectives etc. Need range screener for dakka armies and fliers where dragoons watch and i need anti psycher at least some defence while also need counter melee cause ok dragoons are goor screeners but you might face the all around char melee list and they will curve dagoons in melee in a round same for BA and generally strong good invu melee armies.

So yes i would agree as i see it cawl onagers and dragoons are a perfect list for me as well but on the table are not. I tried. Thats why i took robots . Yes icarus is superb can also anti mass but its not robot. 36 shots - cover towards 4 targets all shots can be split its an option that won games for me. Vs dark eldar to be exact. While dragoons where zero that game. While vs orcs dragoons made a party.

 

Above 2k list i have a lancer in my list. Yes since we going in enemy lists with big targets but between 1-2k i need optins especially in 8th. Thats why i dont use vanguard that i like or rangers or nfiltrators bla bla. Its a decision. I like Rustalkers but wont use them in a more stationary army. If i go mobile id prefer them but for my counter i berelly have points for 6-7 priests. Decisions.

Onager .Cawl . Dragoons rock wont debate on their superb point usage efficiency but wont go top tour. My opinion.

 

If you can fit that tempestus group with a core ad mech cawl 6 heavy . And dragoons and greyfax cullexus etc in one list and knight in 2 k im up for it. But so far i report after serous testing 485 lancer (cheap ,and best for me) more than a unit of 2 dragoons. Wont fit with rest in one list. I cant i got it on 2.5 not 2k.