I just do not understand....

[Uprising]

A few days ago, we got the first pics of a new unit for every marine faction(beside chaos?) to use: The Primaris. What confuse me is why is everyone upset?

The first thing I will say are my thought when I first saw them. I was like wow, we finally got the tools for true scale marines without conversion. Every chapter gets them, and a new unit. Also, finally stalker bolters for the regular tactical and/or scout squads. I have so many ideas about using them for true scale raven guard marines standing next to my scouts company, or using them as alpha legionaries in shadow wars. I even consider replacing my two hundred of salamanders with them completely to start a true scale army.

I then start reading other people reaction. It seems like their is no middle ground. You love them or hate them, its seems. One of the things I see is the fluff. My understanding 40k a sandbox. Who cares about the fluff? Make your own, or play in your timeline. I play a dead army, my DKOK, who regiment was completely obliterated in siege of vrak. This does not stop me from playing or painting them. The action of the future do not impact the present or the past. I see other complaining about how there models are invalid now. I ask How? Is GW breaking into your house/apartment and stealing your models, then forcing you to buy the new kits? If so, get a lawyer and sue them, you be rich afterwards. Finally, I see the rules discussion. They are OP, I hear the masses cry. We have no info about unit, point cost, let alone the rules for the edition.

I am just so confuse about the out cry on here. I see a new unit and kit with endless choices to use said kits. Maybe, it because I played Chaos since 4th edition and just jade?

Edit reason: Thank you rashbold for this funny pic. The pics a joke, nothing more

[HenricusTyranicus]

I think most people are upset because they see Primaris marines as being here to replace the armies that they've worked so hard on, as well as making the old marine heroes less important in the fluff. 

 

I don't really think they're going to phase out TruMarines for NuMarines, but I can understand why people might think that and why they're upset. 

[Sete]

Well ill try to explain my point of view.

*Sorry about the lack of choerence been a long day.

 

They are great! Look awesome no doubt and but want to see the rest of the kit before commiting. The ones seen are bland. They need loin cloths, tabards, a bit of costumization to give them a bit of personality.

 

But the fluff. Its horrendus. They didnt need to cook up that story. Go with a new armour mark or something. But its GW. They had to do something super special that relegates current space marines to a secondary role.

 

I care about the fluff and so do others i assume.

In my personal opinion it could be handled better.

 

For years i waited for a revamped BT line. Not much tho. The IC the sword bros. Now i know that it wont happen.

Also these new dudes wont use crusader squads so yeah they are actually invalidading the way i want to play them with new rules. They are a new and better marines. It has been said by GW themselves.

 

Yeah we can play with our stumpy dudes.

But we know that the new ones will get more if not all support in future releases.

 

Its not just the size that changed. Its the fluff and the rules aswell.

 

I for one was excited with the new marines before the fluff and rules hit.

 

Now i can paint them black put some shoulder pads and helmets on them forget about Grimaldus Emperor Champion and Helbrecth, assemble them in whatever squad name they have since they cant be used in crusader squads and play Black Ultramarines like GW intended since 6th edition.

[TheOneTrueZon]

Additionally, the same kind of gripe and salt existed between 2nd and 3rd edition, it's just that the entirety of the internet back then was AOL 2.0, so the posting boards didn't exist for people to shout as much and as loud as they do now. But believe me, my friends & I called the shift from 2nd to 3rd "The Game to End All Friendships"

[SW1]

It's the thin end of the wedge that makes the 100's of marines in my collection (they're not all painted) invalid. Give it 5 years or so and you will find those models invalidated in the 40k setting. The only hope is 30k keeps at it's current scale.

 

Just like 32mm bases replacing 25mm. GWS "says" you don't have to move across but it's expected and over time happens. If you try playing with 25mm you now get accused of modelling for advantage.

 

That's a big loss in value of the £'s I've invested in the game. Same thing happened with my Brettonians who's numbers make my SM collection look small.

 

It's happened once so saying it's not going to happen again is like pissing into the wind and not expecting your leg to get wet.

[MagicMan]

I think some people find it difficult to ignore parts of the fluff.


They treat the background the same way as the game rules are treated, GW says this is how it works so thats how it works. If they dont like it, it drives them crazy.




You have to be a little bit flexible. If you don't like Draigo carving his name on Mortarions heart, forget you read about it. Etc etc. 

[m_r_parker]

Who cares about the fluff? 

 

 

Err...   me...

 

On a purely personal level I probably come in around the middle ground. I like the models (probably veering towards 'love' in actuality), I'm not angered by GW introducing them (which I know some people are), and have no problem with anyone either:

• Taking them as Primaris units in an all Primaris army.
• Taking them as Primaris in a  mixed Astartes army.
• Using them as True-Scale marines in an Astartes army.
• Deciding not to use them
• Completely ignoring them

I've found over the years I'm more into the background, lore, and stories around the setting than the collecting / modelling / painting / gaming aspects. Much in the same way that I'm heavily into TV shows and movies. Having a really great background to these guys will really sell them to me, and personally I'm more concerned that they're introduced with a wave of a magic wand and 'and thus the Primaris were deployed' leaving us with a lot of questions that drag us (and by 'us' I mean those that are into the background of the lore) out of the setting.

 

Sure I can choose not use them, or buy them. I can decide that my games come before this and technically the Primaris-es (BTW - what is the plural of Primaris? A-D-B?) are a thing, but it still doesn't stop them being a thing and being canon within the 40k-verse. For better or worse they're here, they've got great gear, so we need to get over it. 

 

I would just like them to be introduced with some thought, a degree of creativity, and not have them become a better version of the current marine (or worse a better version of a marine with no humanity / compassion, and solely a killing machine). i would like to see them not be immediately propelled to the fore, and have the writers carefully construct background where simply having the biggest muscles / fastest reflexes / best weapons isn't the be-all-and-end-all of the Imperium hopes. Maybe they could use it more as a metaphor for how the Imperium is, that as the Imperium is decaying and stagnant, protected by Astartes who have not changed in 10,0000 years, A newer marine is needed to bring back the glory and fight the tide against chaos - but at the expense of the heart and soul that those warriors are fighting for, to simply destroy their enemies and not bring back the glory of the Great Crusade.

 

Maybe I'm just babbling - but I'm hoping it's a more than a Deus-Ex Machina moment that's 'Ta-Da - we're here now!'

[Hfran Morkai]

Doesn't help that mixing in other armour marks is probably difficult without looking odd, which for people who like mixing and matching isn't great. I get that they are their own thing and respect that. As a Heresy player I don't see the use of them personally yet but there may be some awesome bits for conversion which I'm down for.

[Ordo Machinum]

I love the fluff as much as the next self-tortured wargamer.

It is crazy when GW zigs one way while we mentally zag another. Maybe there will be more later we'll like, maybe not.

In cases like this, I apply the "Inquisitor Motto". Remember the old Inquisitor game? With the even more overly sized models?

EVERYTHING WE HAVE BEEN TOLD IS A LIE.

The Imperium was never good at getting whole truths spread around whether they wanted to or not. I deal with changes to fluff in the same way. There is always more than what is claimed (even by GW). If some chapters have problems accepting the Primarii, can you blame them. Suddenly bigger space marines show up and say, "Lord Guilliman has returned and decreed we renew your chapter's warriors." R-i-i-ight, that will go over well.

I enjoy this game and since I cannot make the official fluff myself, I do my best to keep on keeping on. It is not always easy.

And because I just could not resist:

[Bryan Blaire]

But believe me, my friends & I called the shift from 2nd to 3rd "The Game to End All Friendships"

Ain't that the truth.

 

And it all goes back to as I have said several times "This has all happened before, it will all happen again."

 

I do laugh at the modeling for advantage crowd though. That's pretty funny. And cute. And you have to tell them that in that specific fashion.

[Guest]

3rd killed 40k for me 8th will bring me back... 

 

As for these... 

 

Games Workshop owe me sweet FA, Nothing, Zilch. I learned over the years that things change... I either like the changes or I deal with them, throwing my toys out the pram does not help me. 

 

I am grateful some of you lot are a minority. 

 

To summon it up. I like them, I will buy them. 

[deathspectersgt7]

I like the model the unveiling sucked a sour lemon . Being at this since almost the beginning (28yrs) I have very few complaints with the models and most of the fluff . The rules I can take them or leave them. I will mix and match my Marines as long as the sculpted pads I buy fit they will go into my collection.

 

But I would like too see some better writing coming out of the studio . For right now SW is taking up my gaming time GW knocked it out of the park with it.

[the jeske]

 

A few days ago, we got the first pics of a new unit for every marine faction(beside chaos?) to use:  The Primaris.  What confuse me is why is everyone upset? 

 

The first thing I will say are my thought when I first saw them.  I was like wow, we finally got the tools for true scale marines without conversion.

Not going to tackle the fluff bad/good thing, as it is a taste thing. But I can imagine people thinking that with new models and a new faction of technicly the same dudes, some people may worry, that all the focus will be put on the new guys and that their armies will slowly be phased down. Now unless someone has seen the rule book with point costs it is hard to judge. But if lets say a "normal" marine clocks around 16-18pts[special/hvy weapon cost included] and the new dudes will cost the same, and the rules for the new dudes other units/leaders won't be totaly wack, there maybe little sense in playing old marines. And people can get easily angry about their collections suddenly no longer being good. GW does have a history of [non chaos] new stuff being very good, so the fear may be warrented.

[Black Cohort]

The models are awesome, unfortunately the fluff, like most new fluff from GW proper in recent years, seems like fan fiction written by an 8 year old.  There are several ways they could have explained new armour and weapons, even with better stats than the way they did.  GW needs to hire some people to work on their codexes who can actually write, or better yet just require all new fluff to be approved by Alan Bligh.

[BadOmen]

I'm interested to see what these new Primaris-only chapters are, if any stand out then I'll consider painting up that.  If not, then i'll stick with small marine UM and forget that Primaris even exist.

[SickSix]

GW will never say you can't play will old regular marines but you can bet your house that within just a couple years they will completely stop supporting that line of models.

 

The lore is a personal thing (I hate it what they did). But the biggest issue is that SM players see the future. And there 28mm marines aint in it.

[Gorthaur]

GW will never say you can't play will old regular marines but you can bet your house that within just a couple years they will completely stop supporting that line of models.

 

The lore is a personal thing (I hate it what they did). But the biggest issue is that SM players see the future. And there 28mm marines aint in it.

Maybe far down the line, but seeing as how they are still basically producing empire state troops..eh. I wouldn't expect the basic line of SM models to go anywhere anytime soon. They are still great models, and the thousand sons are still in that scale and they are still fairly new. And I don't think FW is going to rescale their whole HH line. In other words you will sooner see GWs seraphon and any remaining WHF models vanish before the plastic SM line.

[bluntblade]

My issue is fluff-wise, and probably stems largely from my focus on the Imperium/Chais divide. The key to that for me is that, at route, a Choas Space Marine is from the same background as a loyal Astartes, and that just gives it higher stakes to me than the Imperium simply making better warriors to match them.

 

Maybe this is also silly when the Imperium isn't exactly good, but it's also very unheroic. Hear me out here. Imagine if Minas Tirith had been won not because Aragorn faced his daemons and embraced his destiny to get the dead army on side, but because he turned up with a magician who simply makes better soldiers appear. And then these guy who are just made to be better become the vanguard at the Black Gate. They can't help but sideline the people we've already seen endure through Helm's Deep and Osgiliath.

[D3L]

 

*snip*

I wouldn't expect the basic line of SM models to go anywhere anytime soon. They are still great models, and the thousand sons are still in that scale and they are still fairly new. And I don't think FW is going to rescale their whole HH line. In other words you will sooner see GWs seraphon and any remaining WHF models vanish before the plastic SM line.

 

New to GW, huh?

 

 

[TheUndefeatedGaul]

I love them for a few reasons, though I am perhaps a little biased - I recently got back into 40k after seven years absence, and absence which involved selling off pretty much everything I owned except books and codecies, and now that I'm back I've been planning on building pretty much exclusively in true scale so these are fantastic for me, though it sucks to only see it now after I've spent since November of last year converting my first true scaled marines. 

 

I'll probably buy the starter because I was planning on collecting Ultramarines because I couldn't resist buying and converting Guilliman, and I've always loved the Death Guard. Aside from that I'll be waiting and biding my time to see the new units that the Primaris get and planning my builds because I'm not going to use them as Primaris in terms of fluff, I'm planning on converting the hell out of them to have different armour mks. On the tabletop they'll likely play as Primaris because that's the image I want for my Astartes; giants that kick ass and take names while shrugging off all sorts of damage but in my head they won't be Primaris marines, they'll just be "regular" marines in a more correct scale.

 

I agree that the fluff behind them is pretty bad. I could handle better marines; science and technology does evolve even when you have stubborn leadership and Cawl has had 10,000 years of real time to tinker with a pure formula for making marines, but I really don't like that they're grown. As others have said before I'd rather they had been created with some sort of hybrid mix of Thunder Warrior and 30k era gene seed to create terrifyingly fierce warriors with unflinching loyalty to hurl at Abbaddon, but have them burn out and need to be replaced every few decades.

 

Like it or not though, they're hear to say and I'm pretty sure that the majority of people, lovers or haters, will end up buying them. 

[Stercus]

I don't know why everything better has to be bigger. It's lazy and unimaginative. Fine, bring in new marines, make them faster, stronger, more deadly, better equipped. Why do they have to be ogryn-sized? If anything increasing the bulk should make them lumpen and clumsy. These guys are clearly meant to supersede the existing model line. The only reason the change in scale makes sense is if the plan is to upscale everything else with a view to replacing it. Given the fluff reasons for introducing them, wind time forward in-universe a hundred years or so: with these guys available, there's no reason to replace casualties in any chapter with regular Astartes, so attrition alone is going to ensure that any militarily active chapter will be largely composed of "primarines". Wind on another hundred years and you may as well just paint 'em all blue and be done with it.

This is badly handled and clumsy on GW's part. Making primarines a separate formation that you could add to your army as a detachment I could bear, but making space wolf primarines, blood angel primarines, dark angel primarines just looks like they're manufacturing an excuse to squat the Astartes. I don't see why the solution shouldn't have been to make guilliman and his ten-foot abomination army a new thing, rather than this attempt to shoe-horn them into everybody else's colours. It's flattening the bumps and troughs that make the imperium interesting in favour of conformity. Blurring all the colours into a grey sludge. (Or at least one that looks like macragge blue). It's not that the primarines are bad, they're just very very dull.

Thank the stars for shadow war. I don't think I'll be putting much into 40k for a while, which is a shame because the new ruleset looks interesting.

[Demonl]

It is a range rescale to get people to buy more andit will likely work well for GW.

 

I only hope FW dont do the same to Horus Heresy range.

[SickSix]

 

 

GW will never say you can't play will old regular marines but you can bet your house that within just a couple years they will completely stop supporting that line of models.

 

The lore is a personal thing (I hate it what they did). But the biggest issue is that SM players see the future. And there 28mm marines aint in it.

Maybe far down the line, but seeing as how they are still basically producing empire state troops..eh. I wouldn't expect the basic line of SM models to go anywhere anytime soon. They are still great models, and the thousand sons are still in that scale and they are still fairly new. And I don't think FW is going to rescale their whole HH line. In other words you will sooner see GWs seraphon and any remaining WHF models vanish before the plastic SM line.

Do you really see a new Terminator kit being released now? I don't. New scout models? Nope. They will keep selling what they have for a while but dont expect any new kits for the regular marine line.

[Corswain]

For me, the models look great but everything else seems completely unnecessary. Why did we need them? What do they offer that "classic" Marines don't?

 

People have been asking for Marines to be better (closer to the fluff) for ages but GW haven't made Marines better, they've made better Marines. Not really what we were looking for.

If they'd just brought the Marines stats up in the new edition to fit more closely with their fluff, then I don't think we'd have any people upset.

 

The other thing is that for 30 years, Space Marines have been the pinnacle of the 40K universe in just about every respect - they're pretty much the cornerstone of the hobby - and people (rightly or wrongly) feel that they're now being replaced.

Not physically replaced - I don't think "classic" Marines will ever truly disappear - but their place at the top of he podium is being usurped.

 

For me, it feels like they re-made the original Star Wars - They've taken something I love and re-done it "bigger and better" even though it didn't need it.

(Sorry to use a non-B&C analogy, but I think it's the best way to get across how I feel.)

 

Does that make sense? It's just my thoughts. I certainly won't be including Primaris Marines but I wouldn't begrudge anyone giving them a go.

[Knight of the Raven]

My main (only?) problem with the primaris space marines is, predictably, that several other ranges need updates such as chaos space marines and eldar aspect warriors, and yet what did Games Workshop decide to work on? That's right, more loyalist space marines! Because we obviously didn't have enough of them already.