I just do not understand....

[Doghouse]

Model wise they are brilliant, it's mostly the concept that is upsetting people. Once the game is out and we are a year or so into it we'll be in a better place to judge what is going on but for now people are just upset with the potential outcome.

Lore is really important to a lot of people, especially in "geek/nerd culture" and I have known so many people that have come to the game because they read BL books or played Dawn of War and fell in love with the setting, made friends and became part of a larger community.

My take on the lore is I've come to expect more because of the excellent BL books we've had that have explored the setting in far greater depth than a table top game alone could and now the game lore is becoming really bad fan fiction in my mind.

People are passionate about this stuff so arguments and disagreements are going to happen, the trick will be to maintain the Space Marine community rather than let it divide us.

 

Here we go this poem by Yeats is what sums up my feelings on this at the moment as a plea to GW:

 

"Had I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,

Enwrought with golden and silver light,

The blue and the dim and the dark cloths

Of night and light and the half-light,

I would spread the cloths under your feet:

But I, being poor, have only my dreams;

I have spread my dreams under your feet;

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

[Redtoof]

My main (only?) problem with the primaris space marines is, predictably, that several other ranges need updates such as chaos space marines and eldar aspect warriors, and yet what did Games Workshop decide to work on? That's right, more loyalist space marines! Because we obviously didn't have enough of them already.

Same. As a non-loyalist player it does seem a little cheeky for the loyalist players to complain about getting yet another fancy new kit while my Ork buggies are yet to be replaced from the mid 90s.

 

 

Note: I understand some people don't like the fluff and they are worried about GW screwing them in the long run. We will have to wait and see how bad it will be, but I suspect not very, and no worse than what anyone playing long enough has already endured.

[Joe]

Primaris Marines are perfect for representing the Black Dragons unique-unit, the Dragon Claws. I think I might give that a try.

[Wargamer]

As much as I like new-GW, there's a part of me that sees the release of Primaris in the same light as the release of Ground Marines for Age of Sigmar; the death of a game system, or at the very least the death of regular Space Marines.

[Demonl]

Would've been better to have new marines that are bigger but not quite as big as these, then release upgrade legs and a new "hobby tool" to cut marines in half to add new legs to old torsos.

But now it is time for emperor to star child, re create Horus and the XVI and go to town on Guilliman and his nu marines

Primaris helmets look nice, dont like the arched kneepads nor the thigh pads, collar is ok but couldve been better. Prefer combi bolters to their new guns visually. Squarer backpack is ok. Needs some topknots

[Toxichobbit]

 

(BTW - what is the plural of Primaris? A-D-B?)

 

 

Primaris is already plural. Primari would be singular.

[White Wolf]

I think the models are fine per se, having said that I probably won't buy them - I'm too heavily invested in FW and "normal" marines - I even still base marines on 25mm bases due to the amount of resins bases I have - couple that with the fact that I'm an sad old luddite and I play amongst friends rather than a GW store or a club I don't see it affecting me that much.

If I was to true scale I would rather convert, much like Apologist and Doghouse do now - for me the fun of the hobby is in modeling and converting rather than playing - I'm a rubbish player anyway.... I do have one true scale army and it's great fun to use (thanks Apologist )

The fluff I can take or leave - if it doesn't work for me I'll ignore it - where I'm more likely to use it will be in the stat lines - to me they are what marines should be in the fluff - so I'll probably just use the stat lines with my old models - who cares?? - really it's just toy soldiers, I'm too heavily invested in real life to get too bent out of shape about it. Wargaming is relaxation and escapism for me. One model on the tabletop is just as valid as any other as long as your opponent is clear regarding the representation so there's no shenanigans.

I rarely play 40k any more - 30k is for me where it's at if I decide to use GW's systems - if I want to play a SF wargame with "realism" I use Osprey's "Tomorrow's War" rules and use GW figures - which are great for asymmetric games which is how myself and my regular gaming group play when we want to. Or we might play SAGA, Frostgrave or WRG 6th Edition ancients instead....

I can understand if people want to invest in the fluff emotionally or invest in models financially (I'm not throwing stones here - I have a really huge collection of GW and historical figures) but in terms of net effect you can still do what you want with your figures and your particular head canon with your friends whilst playing tabletop wargames.

It's all about having fun - if it's not fun then you're doing it wrong to be honest.

All the best WW

[Brother Heinrich]

At least I won't have to extend legs anymore haha. Thanks GW.

[Xenith]

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines I the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines in the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...not at all.

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

 

People would still have complained if GW marketed it as a new armour mark alone, and you know it.

[Sete]

Dont you worry Dantio Corbular Mesphistion Trycho Azrayel and Calgarus will continue the old heros legacies

[KiltedMarine]

 

 

*snip*

I wouldn't expect the basic line of SM models to go anywhere anytime soon. They are still great models, and the thousand sons are still in that scale and they are still fairly new. And I don't think FW is going to rescale their whole HH line. In other words you will sooner see GWs seraphon and any remaining WHF models vanish before the plastic SM line.

 

New to GW, huh?

 

 

 

As somebody who's *not* new to GW, please explain your remark to me, because I think Gorthaur makes a good point and you're responding with a dismissive ad hominem.  We have literally zero hard evidence to support the widespread fear that NuMarines are going to replace old!Marines.

 

To reply to the OP's question, my own issue with NuMarines is that I think "Bigger, Faster Astartes Made on Mars That We've Totally Had Hidden for Ten Milennia Just to Show Up In Our Darkest Hour" is disappointing and lazy.  Handing Astartes a new unit with "OMGAWESOME" fanfare and buffed stats is a Ward-esque (if not downright Wardian- yes, there's a distinction) writing cheat to get a "new faction" without actually putting in the work to create a "new faction."

 

I love the models, and I'm going to buy some and paint 'em up (can't decide how yet; Howling Griffons or a homebrew chapter) and I eagerly await seeing them with Wolf accessories to add to my Hounds army.  I still feel the way I do about the fluff, which I think is at least close to the majority sentiment.

[KiltedMarine]

 

 

(BTW - what is the plural of Primaris? A-D-B?)

 

 

Primaris is already plural. Primari would be singular.

 

It's Gothic, which is to say, pseudo-Latin.  "Primaris" isn't actually a word in any RL language, but it sounds like they got it from "primus," or "first." 

 

To be pedantic, I don't think it can be plural, since it's an adjective.  Astartes or Marine would be the noun, in which case the plurals would be "Astartes Primaris" or "Primaris Marines."  If you objectified the adjective, and stuck to Latin as the inspiration, the plural (I think) would be Primarii.

[Sugarlessllama]

In response to the OP. I love the new models. I am not a fan of the lore behind the new models. If it had been something simpler like, "We have come up with a way to mass produce marines!" I would have been stoked for true scale marines. However, the idea of a bigger better marine... meh.

[Spiritual Liege]

I have a bad feeling about this. 

 

Yeah the models aren't that bad and I haven't even read the fluff (I've heard its bad), but I'm afraid that the 28mm Marine-line will die. Hopefully FW won't rescale their 30k line - if they do, I'm outta this game. 

[Gothical]

As somebody who's *not* new to GW, please explain your remark to me, because I think Gorthaur makes a good point and you're responding with a dismissive ad hominem.  We have literally zero hard evidence to support the widespread fear that NuMarines are going to replace old!Marines.

 

 

I know I'm not the other chap, but here's my take:

 

You are correct that there is zero hard evidence supporting the idea that NuMarines will replace the "old" Marines (I'm aware some kits are pretty new). This theory, however, is a concern of mine and I can explain why I think so.

 

1) Background-wise, GW have already said there are whole new Chapters of these guys, and they are replenishing the ranks of established Chapters that have taken heavy casualties. The conclusion I draw from this is that the NuMarines will eventually have fully-functioning autonomous forces (as any "old Marines" Chapter functions), and the door is open for converting the major players over to NuMarines.

 

2) From the artwork, teaser piece, and reliable sources we know that many variations are coming: Plasma Rifle-bearing specialists (leaked model pictures), Command Squad and Heavy Weapons (artwork), bespoke Dreadnought and other vehicles (teaser), Terminators (Hastings).

 

2) GW have said that every Chapter can take these guys - Blood Angels, Space Wolves, the lot. The NuMarine armour, whilst cool, is very plain (nb: may just be pictures of simple snap-fits from starter set, but lacks variation of armour marks of prior releases). People are going to want to have models that fit in with their Chapter's aesthetic. For the moment, the plastic Chapter Upgrade kits mostly work, as heads and shoulder pads are cross-compatible. However, not only do these kits contain elements that will not be cross-compatible (torsos, backpacks, weapons & arms) but people will also want pelt-draped and rune encrusted Wolf armour, robed and feathered DA armour and classically sculpted and bejewelled BA armour. This means we are likely to see either variant NuMarine kits (so a Blood Angels Intercessor Squad, to match the Blood Angels Tactical Squad) or variant NuMarine Upgrade Sprues (with compatible torsos and weapons).

 

If you combine 2 and 3 then that means a doubling of near all existing Marine kits, both vanilla kits and Chapter kits. Bear in mind that most GW stores only have space for the top ~600 (iirc) selling items. If you have two Marine ranges that continue to sell at similar volumes (particularly where kits don't overlap) then nearly the entire 40K section is going to be variants of Space Marines, which isn't going to be good from a retail (many SKU codes, taking up shelf and warehouse space) and customer attraction point of view. It also means casting two versions of kits (the Marine Predator and the inevitable NuMarine MBT) - and not only is mould-tooling expensive but the downtime to switch the moulds in the casting machines costs the company money. At that point, the only logical course is to scrap the "lesser Marine" versions of each kit to reduce the shelf/warehouse-space taken up and the SKUs - after all, if there is an analogue for everything in the old range, then players that still have the old models can use them perfectly fine using the new rules.

 

I do not believe this will be an immediate process, but part of the reason for introducing these guys is the limited expansion potential for the existing Marine range. Therefore I expect most of the future expansion to be based around the new line, either directly (say, re-scaling the Rhino and Predator) or indirectly (replacing an existing unit for one that fulfils the same role but in a different way). For the next year or two (or even five) I expect what is said in the FAQ to be true, but I believe this to be the first step on the road to full range replacement.

[Ordo Machinum]

You know what would have been really grand?

 

If they released the Primaris from Mars as one of the 'missing' legions. II or XI, take your pick. 

They could have been in stasis all of this time. Guiliman spoke with the Emperor and it was decided to revive their forgotten brothers. 

 

Now THAT would have sent shock waves throughout the fluff. 

[Mirbeau]

I think most people are upset because they see Primaris marines as being here to replace the armies that they've worked so hard on, as well as making the old marine heroes less important in the fluff. 

 

I don't really think they're going to phase out TruMarines for NuMarines, but I can understand why people might think that and why they're upset. 

 

Why not a phase out? Hard to tell anything certain at this point, but I believe that surely must be the end goal - 2 greatly different scales of marine will just look silly, fluff justifications or not, especially if the new marines are better looking aesthetically (yes), better in game (don't know), get updates while the old line stagnates (who knows? but see stormcast vs other 'human' ranges in AOS)  and are presented as superior in background (marines 2.0 - so possibly?).

 

If they weren't meant to be a superior replacement (in the real world) - why the scale change? Surely super-marines in a new armour mark could have been more similar in scale. Heck, maybe in background they are the same size and the models are upscailed - we haven't been told primaris marines are larger in fluff (though seems safe to assume so). If i am right, it's good it's not a hard upscaling, so people get more time with what they have - though personally I'd rather we didn't have the fluff justifications and GW called a spade a spade. 

 

 

Besides, the marines range is huge already - I can't see them being able to support everything they already have (which means periodic new stuff too) for old marines, while creating a decent enough sized range for the new lot - and we know they are already getting variant squads/vehicles etc.

 

In many ways I'm all for the Primaris, change is good and they look great, my only hang-ups are due to marines being the same (or close enough) for the length of time I've been in the hobby and not wanting to start again with my bangels - my 2nd ed metals blend in well enough today and I'm in the middle of a 30k force, I'm not scrapping all that but equally don't want them to feel old-hat. Might start a small force of primaris in the future though if I like them enough, the psuedo brotherhood of steel chapter in tarnished metallics I've wanted to do awhile. Or just carry on with the angels. Or go back to my dark eldar. Or undead.

[Eddie Orlock]

I do laugh at the modeling for advantage crowd though. That's pretty funny. And cute. And you have to tell them that in that specific fashion.

If I'd never had to deal with it, I never would've equipped my terminators with 'Vhighner Field Generators' to silence protests from then newer players and gee-dub staff who were unaware that they'd previously been marketed on 25mm bases. It was just easier than dragging my vintage catalogue to each game with the key page bookmarked.

[Mirbeau]

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines I the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines in the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...not at all.

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

 

People would still have complained if GW marketed it as a new armour mark alone, and you know it.

 

Aye, 2nd ed miniatures are fine, if short now. But do you see many RT era miniatures blending in well on the tabletop? Think the difference will be closer to that - the new scale is a big departure -  Tycho will be at chest hight to the new lads!

[Eddie Orlock]

Aye, 2nd ed miniatures are fine, if short now. But do you see many RT era miniatures blending in well on the tabletop? Think the difference will be closer to that - the new scale is a big departure -  Tycho will be at chest hight to the new lads!

Tycho is one of the lucky ones, he died with honour on the fields of Armageddon. Never to live to see the day of his brothers obsolescence.

 

In my non-marine forces I've got a fair few sprinkled around that work quite well.

[Mirbeau]

 

Aye, 2nd ed miniatures are fine, if short now. But do you see many RT era miniatures blending in well on the tabletop? Think the difference will be closer to that - the new scale is a big departure -  Tycho will be at chest hight to the new lads!

Tycho is one of the lucky ones, he died with honour on the fields of Armageddon. Never to live to see the day of his brothers obsolescence.

 

In my non-marine forces I've got a fair few sprinkled around that work quite well.

 

 

Good point on the non-marines, a lot of my ancient eldar are fine today (and probably a few are still being sold by GW!)

[Damo1701]

GW will never say you can't play will old regular marines but you can bet your house that within just a couple years they will completely stop supporting that line of models.

 

The lore is a personal thing (I hate it what they did). But the biggest issue is that SM players see the future. And there 28mm marines aint in it.

 

Can Squats players use their official GW produced squats in stores or Tournaments?  What about the Dark Angels with Veteran Sergeant Namaan?

 

GW is a company that wants to sell stuff.  For the same reason they won't allow oldhammer in store, older models will eventually disappear, as the Primaris Astartes edge out the Adeptus Astartes.  All it takes is to edge them off the shelves, refrain from producing more, and, eventually, cease rules support, then they can drift off into the background.

 

Now, why are GW taking that approach?  Quite simply, the entire community would have ripped them to shreds over both an edition change, and an invalidation to their main line army.  Which is why they are sticking to the story that "all current armies will be playable", note the word, playable.  Sure, some armies will be updated, Primaris Marines will be released, but, I wonder whether anybody who knows how GW operate can say, hand on heart, they truly believe that GW won't phase out Adeptus Astartes now that Primaris Astartes have rules.

 

Sure, oldhammer and older model usage at home is one thing, even at some clubs.  But, if you want a competitive army, watch how quickly Adeptus Astartes armies become one of the worst, after editions of having every opposing faction able to slice through their armour like butter.  Primaris Astartes will be the better, cooler, and taller marines people will choose.

 

 

 

My main (only?) problem with the primaris space marines is, predictably, that several other ranges need updates such as chaos space marines and eldar aspect warriors, and yet what did Games Workshop decide to work on? That's right, more loyalist space marines! Because we obviously didn't have enough of them already.

Same. As a non-loyalist player it does seem a little cheeky for the loyalist players to complain about getting yet another fancy new kit while my Ork buggies are yet to be replaced from the mid 90s.

 

 

Note: I understand some people don't like the fluff and they are worried about GW screwing them in the long run. We will have to wait and see how bad it will be, but I suspect not very, and no worse than what anyone playing long enough has already endured.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there were plenty of other things GW should have been doing instead of foisting the trash that is Primaris Marines on us.  Heck, I would have been very intrigued to see a starter box that didn't have any form of Imperial Marine in it at all.

 

Perhaps a Xenos V Xenos or Chaos V Xenos box will make an appearance, maybe, if the community asks long and loudly enough, GW will prove they are listening, and do as they promise...  I doubt it, but, then again, that's just me.

 

 

You know what would have been really grand?

 

If they released the Primaris from Mars as one of the 'missing' legions. II or XI, take your pick. 

They could have been in stasis all of this time. Guiliman spoke with the Emperor and it was decided to revive their forgotten brothers. 

 

Now THAT would have sent shock waves throughout the fluff. 

 

 

That I could have swallowed easier than the garbage they gave us at the moment.  I don't suppose you live close enough to GW HQ in Nottingham to apply do you? ;)

[the jeske]

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines I the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines in the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...not at all.

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

 

People would still have complained if GW marketed it as a new armour mark alone, and you know it.

*looks with his minds eye* at the fiend lord, power generator termi lord, fist and chain sword models, demons [back in 3.5], quad plasm veteran, cultists and beast man.... sure man 8th didn't invalidete any models or characters.

 

IMO GW did AoS as a test run for w40k[a wise thing to do], got a lot of feed back from it, and what is ok and what is not ok to do. Can you even imagine what would have happened if GW came out and said, 8th is going to be a full rules reset, this is the new marines model [that makes up most of our sales], there are no points and go forge the narrative? Now this does not of course mean that GW did not want a full rules reset, full update on space marine line etc. They are just [and it is a big just considering GW history] doing it a lot more skillful and people friendly. IMO they probably couldn't do it in a more friendly manner as far as the community goes. And that they are not saying, ok in 4 years we are going to fully phase out old marines? Why would they, it sure would not rise the sales on the stuff they still have piled up at stores. I also think, that GW started to think about the PR feedback their ex players can create in the table top gaming community as a whole, and that if GW wants more new people buy their games, it realy does not help to have vets tell new people why they shouldn't[specially outside of UK].

[Xenith]

 

 

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines I the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

8th ed marines will invalidate current marines in the same way that 2nd special characters totally got invalidated by 3rd ed plastics...not at all.

 

*Looks at Dante, Corbulo, Meph, Tycho, Azrael, Zeke, Calgar, all of them*

 

People would still have complained if GW marketed it as a new armour mark alone, and you know it.

*looks with his minds eye* at the fiend lord, power generator termi lord, fist and chain sword models, demons [back in 3.5], quad plasm veteran, cultists and beast man.... sure man 8th didn't invalidete any models or characters.

 

Tell me how the release of new models affected the use of the models you mention? The release of Tzaangors stopped you from using other beastman models? Maybe, but that's a purely aesthetic choice.

 

All the stuff you mention either never had models, or are perfectly usable with 7th ed (and hence 8th ed) rules.

[the jeske]

Tell me how the release of new models affected the use of the models you mention? The release of Tzaangors stopped you from using other beastman models? Maybe, but that's a purely aesthetic choice.

 

 

In 2ed? well the fiend option was gone from chaos upgrades. Beastmen were gone, and the closest thing we got to them were cultists for AL/WB through IA, and then through 3.5, but only for AL. Termintor lords had load outs switch, making the models impossible to WYSIWYG, although the pain her was smaller as terminator characters for chaos went from realy good, to you will never take them ever again[which stayed true till today]. Cultists suffered the same fate as beastman. and the demons from the 3ed can be compared only to the ones done later in teh gav dex. Some of this was fixed by the 3.5 codex, but then reverted by the gav one. So yeah the 2ed switch to 3ed killed whole armies. the 3.5 to gav dex too, and some people [like Refuse] had incredible looking EC armies for example.

 

I expect that GW wanted to avoid the feeling in the community that this is what is going to happen. I mean does anyone realy expect that in 2-3 years time, all meq are not going to be under go a primusoification? GW is trying to make as smooth as possible, and I think it has to do a lot with how AoS started. Wise thing to do imo on their side.