I just do not understand....

[Antarius]

As I wanted to say in the other thread, before it got locked: "in the long run, we are all dead".

 

I mean, I can understand why people might be worried that this is the start of a "soft squatting" of regular marines - I think the timeframe someone mentioned elsewhere was ten years. I get that and who knows? It might even be true. I really don't feel confident to say where this hoby will be in ten years.

 

However, ten years is a LOT of time, both in real life and within the hobby.

The last ten years have seen several editions come and go, at least one setting be completely replaced, several games fall by the wayside or (re)appear, the rise and fall of Finecast, the rise and rise of CAD-sculpting, entire model ranges getting redone and so on and so forth. I'm sure that most people currently in the hobby haven't even been around in the hobby for ten years, just as many have probably left it due to burn out, real life (or death) and so on.

 

Who knows, in ten years we actually MIGHT all be dead or, even worse, GW might not exist anymore and the game we all know and love will be but a dim memory, only kept alive by people wearing leopard skins and shuffling strange lumps of plastic around in their dingy caves.

I don't think that should keep us from enjoying the hobby in the here and now.

 

What I'm trying to say is, if your only gripe with the Primaries is that you're worried about the future of the game several years down the line, I think that's a bit counterproductive to your hobby enjoyment. Now, I'm not saying we should all get "carpe diem" tattoos and make YOLO the battle cry of all our armies, but I think that lots and lots of stuff will happen in the next ten years, both in this hobby and in life in general.

As for the Primaris, I personally love the models, but I think I'd have preferred it if they were an actual rescale so you could mix and match armour marks etc. (although I could see a lot of people, perhaps myself included, getting a bit miffed about that too).

[the jeske]

I agree with you, 10 years is a lot of time. the question is how the 10 years may look like. If for "old" marines it will look like the last 10 years they had now? great, always some sort of viable army, new models here and there. Something one can survive. On the other hand if the 10 years is like the 10 years chaos had, well then I expect the switching to "new" marines happen very fast. Ah and I am talking here about people that build their armies not for tournaments, for tournaments it is going to look like this. X = better. X gets played. Y=bad. Y does not get played.

[Antarius]

Not necessarily disagreeing with your points, Jeske, but wouldn't tournament players likely have to reshuffle their armies a lot anyway? With a new edition and accompanying changes in the meta, I mean.

[Xwingt65]

I love the models and can't wait for the rest of the range to show up.

 

And I like the fluff. A breath of fresh air.

[Toxichobbit]

 

 

 

(BTW - what is the plural of Primaris? A-D-B?)

 

 

Primaris is already plural. Primari would be singular.

 

It's Gothic, which is to say, pseudo-Latin.  "Primaris" isn't actually a word in any RL language, but it sounds like they got it from "primus," or "first." 

 

To be pedantic, I don't think it can be plural, since it's an adjective.  Astartes or Marine would be the noun, in which case the plurals would be "Astartes Primaris" or "Primaris Marines."  If you objectified the adjective, and stuck to Latin as the inspiration, the plural (I think) would be Primarii.

 

 

Primaris and primari are both actual words. They're used in Catalan which is spoken in some parts of Spain (and I think some other places). Unsurprisingly, they mean something akin to primary.

[Jackalwolf]

In response to the OP. I love the new models. I am not a fan of the lore behind the new models. If it had been something simpler like, "We have come up with a way to mass produce marines!" I would have been stoked for true scale marines. However, the idea of a bigger better marine... meh.

 

This echoes my sentiment exactly. Models are incredible, fluff meh.

 

I do have one hope though... his name is A-D-B.

 

If they just let him create the fluff for them I'm sure he'll make us love them. There is so many samples in the lore of times when improving marines was attempted that I feel tying it to a very cannon established attempt to improve marine geneseed like Corax wanting to produce them faster, the Cursed Founding trying to solve their inherent deffects, or any other solution, would have given them agency and validity within universe.

 

Bringing a random dude never existing in the cannon (Looking at you Cawl) and, allegedly, the most disliked Primarch by the community and have them implement a solution in under a year when the rest had tried for 10,000 years and the emperor needed some good 100 years of preparation to launch the Astartes project is just a poor choice.

 

That said, GW has been very sparce in the information so maybe they'll tie it into established lore to make it more palatable.

 

Please GW, just give it to A-D-B and let him do his thing.

[Jackalwolf]

 

 

 

 

(BTW - what is the plural of Primaris? A-D-B?)

 

 

Primaris is already plural. Primari would be singular.

 

It's Gothic, which is to say, pseudo-Latin.  "Primaris" isn't actually a word in any RL language, but it sounds like they got it from "primus," or "first." 

 

To be pedantic, I don't think it can be plural, since it's an adjective.  Astartes or Marine would be the noun, in which case the plurals would be "Astartes Primaris" or "Primaris Marines."  If you objectified the adjective, and stuck to Latin as the inspiration, the plural (I think) would be Primarii.

 

 

Primaris and primari are both actual words. They're used in Catalan which is spoken in some parts of Spain (and I think some other places). Unsurprisingly, they mean something akin to primary.

 

 

I'm amazed! As a Catalan, first, thanks for knowing about us and our language :) I can confirm that primari means "the main one" but also can mean "simpleton".

Primaris per se is not used but in the language the addition of an S tends to mean plurals so you can bastardise the word like that.

[Redtoof]

Bringing a random dude never existing in the cannon (Looking at you Cawl) and, allegedly, the most disliked Primarch by the community and have them implement a solution in under a year when the rest had tried for 10,000 years and the emperor needed some good 100 years of preparation to launch the Astartes project is just a poor choice.

 

That said, GW has been very sparce in the information so maybe they'll tie it into established lore to make it more palatable.

 

Please GW, just give it to A-D-B and let him do his thing.

I'm not sure I really understand this particular complaint - the random dude thing. The galaxy is a very large place, and the timescales involved are huge. There is no way that we already know the names of ever single important person in the setting. If Cawl has been working away in secret on Mars perfecting this project for thousands of years (it sounds like he started shortly after the heresy) I can believe that his name hasn't cropped up before. I bet there would be hundreds or thousands of Cawl-like tech adepts working away on some secret project the wider imperium would consider heresy.

 

If you have to assign every important deed to an already existing character you end up with the Star Wars issue, where all the important characters know each other or are literally related, so the galaxy seems like a very small place. I find that to be much lazier writing.

 

I agree though, we could definitely do with a bit of ADB in this.

[Evil Eye]

I'm not a filthy loyalist, but here's my opinion on the Primaris Marines:

 

The models are gorgeous. No doubt about that.

Fluff wise, it's a bit wonky, but I have a feeling GeeDubs knows what they're doing. Given the signs that Roboute is either sufficiently disgusted with the Imperium to pull an Imperium Secundus, or is quite nuts and has potentially gone full traitor (with or without capital T) I can see the potential for some really good fluff emerging from this- the whole "Divided Imperium" thing is really interesting to me. I should buy Gathering Storm. Also, in terms of sheer concept, I think it's for the best that they made Primaris Marines a thing rather than flat-out replacing regular Marines.

 

GeeDubs is kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place; people have been screeching at them to make True-Scale Marines for years despite the fact that a "true-scale" 40K would be unplayable (even historical wargames use "representative" scale), but if they went full hog and said "We're updating the Marines kit to be properly scaled, unfortunately your old Marines are now too small" people would be up in arms. Alternatively they could have marketed them as "True-Scale Marines" and made them entirely optional ("If you want more realistically sized Marines, such as for SW:A, use these, but you can still use your regular Marines") but that would have caused a whole raft of other problems, especially amongst tournament playing types. Primaris Marines, whilst not ideal, are the best solution out of the choices available.

 

As for the whole "But they won't update our normal kits!" argument, I can't think of any regular Space Marine kits that really need updating. Chaos? Definitely, actual Havocs, plastic Noise Marines and non-ancient Berserkers would be very welcome. But regular Marines are basically "complete".

[the jeske]

Not necessarily disagreeing with your points, Jeske, but wouldn't tournament players likely have to reshuffle their armies a lot anyway? With a new edition and accompanying changes in the meta, I mean.

I am not saying the shuffle is bad. Am just saying that I think GW is very inclined to do it,and that they want to avoid all the pitfalls they fell in with AoS. And I did not bring up the tournament armies just, because of what you said, tournament armies will end up being the best of the best. I just think it is a good thing to understand some people worries on one side and on the other warn others to not get too attached to their faction.

 

 

I'm not sure I really understand this particular complaint - the random dude thing.

 

It is very dues ex machina[not that people do not like it sometimes]. you know you have good batman stories, and you have batman chained up, dead as dead can by sharks only for him to pull off a shark repelant spray to save the day. And again it doesn't mean that for some people the spray thing isn't fun.

[Doghouse]

 

 

Please GW, just give it to A-D-B and let him do his thing.

 

 

*Glances down both ends of the corridor cautiously before reaching out and placing a small Vox recording into the chest of a Servitor*

 

"Help us A D-B, you're our only hope..."

[Jackalwolf]

 

Bringing a random dude never existing in the cannon (Looking at you Cawl) and, allegedly, the most disliked Primarch by the community and have them implement a solution in under a year when the rest had tried for 10,000 years and the emperor needed some good 100 years of preparation to launch the Astartes project is just a poor choice.

 

That said, GW has been very sparce in the information so maybe they'll tie it into established lore to make it more palatable.

 

Please GW, just give it to A-D-B and let him do his thing.

I'm not sure I really understand this particular complaint - the random dude thing. The galaxy is a very large place, and the timescales involved are huge. There is no way that we already know the names of ever single important person in the setting. If Cawl has been working away in secret on Mars perfecting this project for thousands of years (it sounds like he started shortly after the heresy) I can believe that his name hasn't cropped up before. I bet there would be hundreds or thousands of Cawl-like tech adepts working away on some secret project the wider imperium would consider heresy.

 

If you have to assign every important deed to an already existing character you end up with the Star Wars issue, where all the important characters know each other or are literally related, so the galaxy seems like a very small place. I find that to be much lazier writing.

 

I agree though, we could definitely do with a bit of ADB in this.

 

 

Yep I get that and fair enough point. Didn't mean necessarily to make it an actual character be involved in it but intertwine the most cannon changing event of the last 20 years with part of the established cannon would have been best. Example:

 

- Cawl was part of the project on the 21st cursed founding and he was already trying to improve marines then and got "lost" to history when everybody saw that founding for the debacle that founding was. That would bring him into other events and explain why is he not the fabricator general in one fell swoop.

- Cawl actually started his job from the ruins of the labyrinth that Corax solves in "Deliverance Lost".

 

Not necessarily have the same characters.

[KiltedMarine]

 

As somebody who's *not* new to GW, please explain your remark to me, because I think Gorthaur makes a good point and you're responding with a dismissive ad hominem.  We have literally zero hard evidence to support the widespread fear that NuMarines are going to replace old!Marines.

 

 

I know I'm not the other chap, but here's my take:

 

You are correct that there is zero hard evidence supporting the idea that NuMarines will replace the "old" Marines (I'm aware some kits are pretty new). This theory, however, is a concern of mine and I can explain why I think so.

 

1) Background-wise, GW have already said there are whole new Chapters of these guys, and they are replenishing the ranks of established Chapters that have taken heavy casualties. The conclusion I draw from this is that the NuMarines will eventually have fully-functioning autonomous forces (as any "old Marines" Chapter functions), and the door is open for converting the major players over to NuMarines.

 

2) From the artwork, teaser piece, and reliable sources we know that many variations are coming: Plasma Rifle-bearing specialists (leaked model pictures), Command Squad and Heavy Weapons (artwork), bespoke Dreadnought and other vehicles (teaser), Terminators (Hastings).

 

2) GW have said that every Chapter can take these guys - Blood Angels, Space Wolves, the lot. The NuMarine armour, whilst cool, is very plain (nb: may just be pictures of simple snap-fits from starter set, but lacks variation of armour marks of prior releases). People are going to want to have models that fit in with their Chapter's aesthetic. For the moment, the plastic Chapter Upgrade kits mostly work, as heads and shoulder pads are cross-compatible. However, not only do these kits contain elements that will not be cross-compatible (torsos, backpacks, weapons & arms) but people will also want pelt-draped and rune encrusted Wolf armour, robed and feathered DA armour and classically sculpted and bejewelled BA armour. This means we are likely to see either variant NuMarine kits (so a Blood Angels Intercessor Squad, to match the Blood Angels Tactical Squad) or variant NuMarine Upgrade Sprues (with compatible torsos and weapons).

 

If you combine 2 and 3 then that means a doubling of near all existing Marine kits, both vanilla kits and Chapter kits. Bear in mind that most GW stores only have space for the top ~600 (iirc) selling items. If you have two Marine ranges that continue to sell at similar volumes (particularly where kits don't overlap) then nearly the entire 40K section is going to be variants of Space Marines, which isn't going to be good from a retail (many SKU codes, taking up shelf and warehouse space) and customer attraction point of view. It also means casting two versions of kits (the Marine Predator and the inevitable NuMarine MBT) - and not only is mould-tooling expensive but the downtime to switch the moulds in the casting machines costs the company money. At that point, the only logical course is to scrap the "lesser Marine" versions of each kit to reduce the shelf/warehouse-space taken up and the SKUs - after all, if there is an analogue for everything in the old range, then players that still have the old models can use them perfectly fine using the new rules.

 

I do not believe this will be an immediate process, but part of the reason for introducing these guys is the limited expansion potential for the existing Marine range. Therefore I expect most of the future expansion to be based around the new line, either directly (say, re-scaling the Rhino and Predator) or indirectly (replacing an existing unit for one that fulfils the same role but in a different way). For the next year or two (or even five) I expect what is said in the FAQ to be true, but I believe this to be the first step on the road to full range replacement.

 

I do understand that.  I recognize that a soft reboot is a distinct possibility..

 

And I do share the concerns about Space Marines fundamentally changing in that way.  It *will* be a terrible shame if thirty years' worth of lore gets overwritten with this lazy kind of "super duper all the ultimate superlatives" stuff.  It will be a shame if the older marks of armor all disappear in a wave of standardization across the Imperium and the Astartes. 

 

But, as much as that's a possibility, and as much as it will be a shame if it comes to pass, too many people are treating it as a certainty, and many of those same people, like Gorthaur specifically, are treating the rest of us with contempt when we disagree.

 

Aelves and Free City/Guild forces in AoS, both of which have been ignored for the life of that line, are set to get new models.  I'd say that's evidence that the "squatting" of Old!Astartes is a possibility, not a certainty.

[Gothical]

 

I do understand that.  I recognize that a soft reboot is a distinct possibility..

 

 

And I do share the concerns about Space Marines fundamentally changing in that way.  It *will* be a terrible shame if thirty years' worth of lore gets overwritten with this lazy kind of "super duper all the ultimate superlatives" stuff.  It will be a shame if the older marks of armor all disappear in a wave of standardization across the Imperium and the Astartes. 

 

But, as much as that's a possibility, and as much as it will be a shame if it comes to pass, too many people are treating it as a certainty, and many of those same people, like Gorthaur specifically, are treating the rest of us with contempt when we disagree.

 

Aelves and Free City/Guild forces in AoS, both of which have been ignored for the life of that line, are set to get new models.  I'd say that's evidence that the "squatting" of Old!Astartes is a possibility, not a certainty.

 

 

I am one of the concerned - not sure whether to continue my rebooted Salamanders (I was updating to the new Devastator, Assault & Tactical kits along with FW shoulderpads and stuff), or wait and see what happens so that I don't feel the need to "re-reboot" them in a year or two, or whether I should keep going but make my final aim smaller as a just-in-case.

 

I really don't get the point (on my side) in being hostile to people over this - as long as concerns are understood, I think it is fine to point out that the concerns are assumptions and supposition rather than hard fact.

 

On the subject of Aelves & AoS, I was just starting a Wood Elf army when Fantasy entered its final phase, and I have put it on hold ever since so that I can see the direction they're taking with (A)elven models and background. If the "High Elves" are any good then I'll be in a hard place, as I abandoned my High Elf collection as it was designed for ranked combat and that's now gone. So in many ways I have already experienced either a hiatus or halting of armies I collect over concerns for the future, one I regret and one I am highly anticipating, thus I can see both sides of the argument here.

[Toxichobbit]

I'm amazed! As a Catalan, first, thanks for knowing about us and our language I can confirm that primari means "the main one" but also can mean "simpleton".

Primaris per se is not used but in the language the addition of an S tends to mean plurals so you can bastardise the word like that.

I have to confess that my knowledge isn't very good (massive understatement ), it's a combination of hasty google searching and badly remembered memories from when I was in Spain about a decade ago. My girlfriend at the time was Portuguese and we spent some time in Spain when I was visiting her. I remember it coming up because she was having real problems with the language, which confused us as her Spanish was normally very good. I'm pretty sure people were doing it to mess with her, the same way Welsh and Scottish people sometimes do when you speak English there. So we kinda stumbled upon it.

Should probably stop now though, getting way off topic.

[Xenith]

 

Tell me how the release of new models affected the use of the models you mention? The release of Tzaangors stopped you from using other beastman models? Maybe, but that's a purely aesthetic choice.

 

 

In 2ed? well the fiend option was gone from chaos upgrades. Beastmen were gone, and the closest thing we got to them were cultists for AL/WB through IA, and then through 3.5, but only for AL. Termintor lords had load outs switch, making the models impossible to WYSIWYG, although the pain her was smaller as terminator characters for chaos went from realy good, to you will never take them ever again[which stayed true till today]. Cultists suffered the same fate as beastman. and the demons from the 3ed can be compared only to the ones done later in teh gav dex. Some of this was fixed by the 3.5 codex, but then reverted by the gav one. So yeah the 2ed switch to 3ed killed whole armies. the 3.5 to gav dex too, and some people [like Refuse] had incredible looking EC armies for example.

 

I expect that GW wanted to avoid the feeling in the community that this is what is going to happen. I mean does anyone realy expect that in 2-3 years time, all meq are not going to be under go a primusoification? GW is trying to make as smooth as possible, and I think it has to do a lot with how AoS started. Wise thing to do imo on their side.

 

 

So basically what you're saying is that none of the models you mention were invalidated by the release of a new model?

 

They were invalidated by changes in rules, but not by changes in models.

[Hellrender]

Also we havent had any fluff yet.

 

Whenever gw previewed a factiob or rules for 8th, so far most comments are alog the line of: they didnt say anything we didnt already know.. Or they didnt really say anything at all..

 

I.e we need to wait for the full release.

 

But then when they preview a new unit/faction/model something in the same format, people take it on face value as if that is all there is to primaris marines. Guilliman waved a wand and there were new marjnes..

 

Ofcourse because it was told to us in 1 sentence how they came to be, rather than in a dedocated novel that goes deep in the challenges and needs of such a project..

 

For me, i love the new models. Looking forward to see the dread. The fluff so far is lacklustre, simply because of lack of info rather than quality of the fluff. I dont mind change, or new character or units. Just more opportunities to bring that on my hobbh desk and have some fun about imagining ways to have it fit my version, mybinterpretation.

 

However.. The only thing that i have noticed.. Is the lack of grimdark within the imperium. Guilliman brought alot of hope, but where are the highlords of terra challenging his claim, or inquisitors investigaying the alien nature of his ressurection. Where are rhe storiea of the oppressed citizens of the imperium. The only thing i want to have preserved is ths fact that the imperium, is for the most part, not a nice plave to live in, juat the only way to survive without selling your soul to the xenos of heretic.

[Jackalwolf]

Also we havent had any fluff yet.

 

Whenever gw previewed a factiob or rules for 8th, so far most comments are alog the line of: they didnt say anything we didnt already know.. Or they didnt really say anything at all..

 

I.e we need to wait for the full release.

 

But then when they preview a new unit/faction/model something in the same format, people take it on face value as if that is all there is to primaris marines. Guilliman waved a wand and there were new marjnes..

 

Ofcourse because it was told to us in 1 sentence how they came to be, rather than in a dedocated novel that goes deep in the challenges and needs of such a project..

 

For me, i love the new models. Looking forward to see the dread. The fluff so far is lacklustre, simply because of lack of info rather than quality of the fluff. I dont mind change, or new character or units. Just more opportunities to bring that on my hobbh desk and have some fun about imagining ways to have it fit my version, mybinterpretation.

 

However.. The only thing that i have noticed.. Is the lack of grimdark within the imperium. Guilliman brought alot of hope, but where are the highlords of terra challenging his claim, or inquisitors investigaying the alien nature of his ressurection. Where are rhe storiea of the oppressed citizens of the imperium. The only thing i want to have preserved is ths fact that the imperium, is for the most part, not a nice plave to live in, juat the only way to survive without selling your soul to the xenos of heretic.

 

Couldn't agree more with your points! I'm really hoping the fluff is good and the drama present between marines finding themselves obsolete, just like it happened to thunder warriors. Which will adapt and try to be upgraded and which will try to stick to the old ways? Is there an age limit for the upgrade?

How delicious would it be say: Logan Grimnar is deemed too old to be upgraded to primaris but still is the leader out of the sheer respect he commands but Ragnar gets upgraded to primaris and there are voices dissenting over who should be the Alpha.

[jamesvalentine]

todays generation of players don't like the idea of change and progress. they want the universe to remain a stagnant cesspit with nothing new being released unless it allows them to be a power gaming cheese monkey.

 

its not just GW that has kept me out of 40k for 11 years. its the fans who share at least 50% of the blame.

thankfully this edition I'll just be painting, medeling and gaming alone.

no whiners to ruin it for me AGAIN

[Claws and Effect]

Anecdote that seems relevant to me.

 

Wolverine, the Marvel character, had a son. Wolverine is short and old. His son was young and tall.

 

Note I said "was". What happened to the tall young son?

 

The short, old guy killed him.

 

Moral of the story? New and bigger isn't always better.

[Duymon]

I'm totally chill with the new space marine type.

The new equipment also is cool.

I'm NOT chill with them mixing up the fluff to allow primaris space marines into even Blood Angel, Spacewof, DA or any other 1st/2nd founding space marine legion derived from a different primarch. The whole geneseed mixing thing throw me off.

I wish they had introduced the Primaris as a Hero Ultra / Codex unit that could be taken as allies, OR an entirely separate army like the Grey Knights.

Whatever. It's their IP and if they want to try to make fans buy a crapton of their new Primaris Models I can see why they're all inclusive with the new Primaris Marines.

I won't be buying any because I only care about Beakies. Beakies were what Space marines were to me when I was in Grade School and if he doesn't have a pointy nose he's not badass (now if there were Primaris with Beaky Helmets..... I'd suddenly justify an Ultra-Smurf or custom codex chapter... Emperor help me...)

[KiltedMarine]

Why does the option for Primaris to be used in non-Ultra chapters bother you? I'm curious as to the reason why you'd want to see Robby's team get yet more goodies at the expense of the rest of the Astartes lines.

I mean, Ishagu's obsession I understand; he's a shrieking Ultra fanboy who wants them to be the best of the best of the best, with honors, sir. ;)

But what's your reason?

(I use the "shrieking fanboy" label with all the fraternal respect and affection possible- I'm the same way about Wolves and DA... )

[the jeske]

no has problems with another type of unit being added to the game. People have problem with big marines fluff and the fact that the way they are delivered smells totaly of "normal" marines phase out. And there are of course different degrees of each. If someone does not care about the fluff at all, the first thing won't bother them much. On the other hand if they have a firm producing parts for marines they would probably worried 3x/4x as much as a normal joe marine player.

[KiltedMarine]

Jeske, are you replying to me, or someone else? Because if you're replying to me, I'm not sure what remark of mine you're replying *to.*

[dogfender]

Shame, they could have just used part of the sons of antaeus geneseed.. probably the only 'good' thing to come from the cursed founding. who wouldnt want bigger better tougher marines akin to deathguard? lol