The new Dark Imperium novel

[karden00]

Oh my stars...

"I will ... make it great again..."

 

Yeah.

 

And of course, it could be said that Augustus was far worse for the ruling class than was Nero.

 

I don't mind at all Guilliman being the 'fall in line or die' type. This is high stakes gaming, here. If a boss of Guilliman's character sees leaders as I'll equipped or having agendas not in tune with the betterment of the Imperium (read Guilliman's own), he, a primarch, would never think twice to have them disappeared.

[DogWelder]

Oh my stars...

"I will ... make it great again..."

 

Yeah.

 

"I will shore up the walls"

[Seahawk]

So much facepalm.

 

 

 

I just might buy this book soonish. Definitely want to keep up to date on my fluff!

[DogWelder]

So much facepalm.

 

 

 

I just might buy this book soonish. Definitely want to keep up to date on my fluff!

There's definitely the feeling that he was going to go "I AM THE SENATE" and start chopping people up with the Emperor's Sword several time when he was speaking.

 

However, in the end it was justifiable as it was for the greater good.

[Brother Captain Ed]

It bears remembering that a central tenant of the concept of the Imperium is not that mankind is exceptionally incompetent, self-centered, or ignorant.  The Imperium has no shortage of these traits, of course, and they do seem to be readily available among the aristocracy.  But, do not forget that the techno-fascist theocracy that rules mankind is not a statement about the nature of mankind, but of the galaxy mankind dwells in and the failure of man's singular hope (the Emperor) to overcome it.

 

Guilliman DOES have man's best interest at heart.  And, he is one of the most selfless primarchs, loyal or traitor.  The human race teeters on the brink of destruction and Guilliman is one of the few human minds not attached to a life-support throne that both understands the depth and breadth of the threats facing humanity AND can take in the incomprehensibly vast nature of the Imperium.  Remember: the word "dictator" comes to us from the Roman Republic.  It was an office created for an emergency situation that could not successfully be turned over to the Senate or a term-limited consul for resolution.   ...If a small, barely iron age city-state recognized the inability of a few dozen city fathers to agree in times of crises, what prayer does an Imperium of a million worlds have of reaching an oligarchic consensus, regardless of how noble its head of state is??

 

Guilliman is doing what must be done alongside people who cannot see what he sees or know what we the omniscient readers know.  I want to read the actual text, but I am not willing to paint this as a character flaw just yet.  Like with all aspects of 40k, judging Guilliman's actions against the standard of 21st Century Western political thought misses the point.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Ed - Good text. I like it. Thank you. The thing with Guilliman is that he may not be as selfless as he appears. He does not seem to speak openly and he cares about Ultramar first and the Imperium second. As for the Romans, they were great political and tactical minds. However, I do not want to criticise Guilliman's ability for effective decision-making. I want to judge him according to moral law. That is what matters most to me, as a person. In that sense, I am conflicted. Yes, he cares and he is trying to salvage the situation, but the ends rarely justify the means. Yes, he is what Roman's call a dictator, but is that a good idea to begin with? No matter how great, a human is inherently limited. This also goes for Primarchs and the Emperor. Would it not be more prudent to have a military council as opposed to one person to avoid subjectivity, mistakes and selfishness? On that note, is Guilliman even prepared to give up his power after the crisis has ended?

 

To me, there is one question. What is Guilliman prepared to give for humankind? Not Ultramar, not the Emperor or the Imperium, but for their people. Not from a standpoint of military efficiency, but from a personal one. Does he do it out of love for humankind or because he has orders? The answer we may never fully get, but the answer decides whether I rally behind him or not.

 

Man, I really would like to talk to this guy now :D

Edited June 14, 2017 by Immersturm

[Frater Cornelius]

Update: After reading more into it, I found a new angle on Guilliman, one that is so human, it is painful. In case anyone has not read it and wishes to avoid it, here are some spoiler tags:

 

Guilliman is terribly lonely, and terribly tired. The weight of the entire Imperium is riding on his shoulders, and he's doing the best he can. He's absolutely sick of having to push past the self-interest of many officials though. Hypocricy is abound. But there is something heavier. Guilliman did not leave the Thoneroom on good terms. He is bitter. The Emperor is less subtle now and doesn't even attempt to hide the fact that he never loved any of his creations but saw them as tools. He allowed them to call him father and hid his thought with faked love.

 

There we have a picture where the Imperium tries to avoid Guilliman, the Emperor wants to use Guilliman, Chaos tries to kill Guilliman and Cawl is become highly dangerous and uncontrollable. In fact, subtle changes have been noted. Guilliman's hair is slightly thinner and his face is tired.

 

And yet, despite all, he pushes on. Not for the Emperor, not for himself, but for mankind. He wishes to die, but he carries on. And that, my friends, is true sacrifice, and I can not help but take off my hat for this.

 

Yes, Guilliman is flawed, like all humans are. However, for him it is a test of faith. Yes, he may do things that might be morally flawed. But at least he is trying and he is generally a good person who tries to do the right thing in the only way he knows how, all while the entire galaxy is falling down on him.

 

I may need to read the whole book myself, but I feel empathic for Guilliman and his trials and thus more inclinded towards him. Not the Emperor though. Screw that guy. If I did not hate Chaos just as much as him, I would be playing Nurgle right about now Oo

[Prot]

That passage about being a tool for the Emperor.... that's actually from Master of Mankind. In fact it's where I learned the most about how the Emperor feels about all the Primarchs. It's very enlightening. In fact I would say he 'cared' more for the Ten Thousand than he did the Primarchs.

[Marcus Arias]

There's an interview with Guy Haley on Warhammer Community website, he talks about the Novel and the influences. He mentions A D-B's Master of Mankind as an influence.

 

As Guy wrote the book last year, I do wonder if there were subtle parallels drawn between the Trump campaign and Grimdark.

 

Fun note: There's a chap here in the UK who brought a themed Ultramarine Army to an event in Durham (google Durham Raiders), where he'd made an objective marker with the banner that said Guilliman/ Rubio 2016 'Make Ultramar Great Again'

[Frater Cornelius]

So yeah, I am very out of the 'For the Emperor' camp, though Guilliman is intruiging as he shows a. erh human and relatable struggle. Still not sure if I morally justify fielding him.

[Prot]

I've always liked Guilliman. I never saw him as the boyscout, do-gooder that many describe him as.

 

I've had long conversations with David Annandale about him... and his weaknesses. (David lives in my city) and I've come to think of Guilliman a little differently than my own original perception.

 

When I think of those conversations, and the way the story is going I just see him as this demi-god with the weight of something unbearable on him and when he 'left' 30K, it was with the knowledge he had put in place a system, and a situation that could carry things forward, and eventually elevate mankind (with help of course). And he wakes up to this total crap storm.

 

I'm just going to be blunt...his weakness is not his dogmatic values, it's his belief in mankind. I think when he woke that belief was shattered. I'm glad he's not talking / acting like the perfect savior.

 

The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised at all if they killed him.

[Frater Cornelius]

I've always liked Guilliman. I never saw him as the boyscout, do-gooder that many describe him as.

 

I've had long conversations with David Annandale about him... and his weaknesses. (David lives in my city) and I've come to think of Guilliman a little differently than my own original perception.

 

When I think of those conversations, and the way the story is going I just see him as this demi-god with the weight of something unbearable on him and when he 'left' 30K, it was with the knowledge he had put in place a system, and a situation that could carry things forward, and eventually elevate mankind (with help of course). And he wakes up to this total crap storm.

 

I'm just going to be blunt...his weakness is not his dogmatic values, it's his belief in mankind. I think when he woke that belief was shattered. I'm glad he's not talking / acting like the perfect savior.

 

The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised at all if they killed him.

 

Good thoughts. I am also liking the situation. As I mention, I feel a tremendous amount of empathy for Guilliman and I sort of wish to lend him a hand. However, I am not quite pleased with his dictaror-esque actions, as I mentioned before. But then again, what else is he to do when the nobles all act like morons. I think it is less relevant what he does, but instead why he does it. And there I think he is genuinely concerned for humanity and that hope and faith persists even beyond the idiocy he is seeing right now.

 

If they kill him though, boy, will that be a feces-storm. Most Marines will go berserk and I will probably punch every Imperium 2 player I see. This will make him a martyr though, cementing his position as one of the most awesome personalities of 40k.

[DogWelder]

 

This clears things up a bit more. He clearly has a logical plan in motion to save Ultramar and restore it to the former glory of the 500 Worlds and even more. However, the traditions and customs of the nobility were impeding his progress. I think it was more than high time he put his foot down and reminded them of his authority.

[Helias_Tancred]

There are several Primarchs I would trust to rule as a dictator for the benefit of the Imperium and mankind. There are 0 humans. There are maybe several Astartes that I would trust, and that is it.

Guilliman would be #1 among the primarchs.

[Seahawk]

I read the book in three days.

 

IT. WAS. AWESOME!

 

 

Seriously, this book is great. I feel Haley really does know the Ultramarines well, and is portraying them how I always wished them to be. The characters are rich, you feel for the nobodies, and the action is good bolterbanging, without losing the detail. Like, a lot of the HH books nowadays are devolved to "Here comes a fight! bolter bolter punch kick the day is won!" Haley writes in just enough details of the fights to get you in the zone while not bogging you down in it, which is enjoyable.

 

On to the fluff itself. It really helps get one oriented with the current time period (though there's a whole amusing segment about how Guilliman has been trying to find out the actual year, and thinks it could be either early M41 or mid-late M42). Everything is explained better, including the Primaris, old marines, habits, and so on. Rather than be polarizing, I think it really opens up the mind about the Ultramarines and Guilliman, and shows new aspects always hinted at but never really expanded upon. A few things are mildly rankling, but that's mainly a double reflection from the story itself, where you recognize your heroes are not perfect. 

 

Some things to pick out:

 

- There is now an 11th company to the Chapter; their trim is light blue, and it consists entirely of Primaris marines.

- The first set of Primaris marines to reinforce the Chapter after M'kar's invasion consisted of 300 dudes, a little less than the number lost in the campaign. 

- New ships and new tactics! Specialist ships exist for the deployment of Inceptor marines.

- There are now 9 Chapters guarding Ultramar of 500 worlds. Hefty.

- Guilliman realizes he's breaking with the codex in many ways, but it makes sense (probably going along the lines of "you see this as dogma, I see this as guidelines").

- Ventris is still alive and Captain of the 4th, and Guilliman likes him (reminds him of Thiel); this means all of the McNeill series is canonized. However, Haley writes him so much more as an Ultramarine than McNeill ever did, which makes me like him more. 

[Thunder_god]

I agree with you Seahawk.  I read the ebook weeks ago but haven't said much due to not wanting to spoil things for our brethren.

 

I truly enjoyed the conflicted nature of Guilliman.  He is still at odds over his 'father' being deified, as he goes over in his mind many, many times.  I also liked how we get the image of the Emperor having 'lost his humanity' after 10,000 years of torment on the golden throne.  He cares for humanity in general, but not for a single human being in specific.  The imagery of Guilliman bing the rasp handed to a prisoner in an iron cage was nice, as I think many players do not always think of the torment the emperor has endured since the heresy.  The first half the last chapter, in particular, was terrific.  

 

And seeing as how Nightbringer brought me to the Ultramarines, I too was ecstatic to see Ventris included.  What i'd give for a mini of him at times.

[Prot]

I can't disagree with anything. I really hate to sound like a fanboy, he's just very well written here. This is my favourite Guilliman.

[Tamiel]

His father doesn't even see him as a person.
The humanity that he had such high hopes for is a total disappointment.
They worship the very man who said "Stop worshipping Gods".
Chaos is trying to kill him and corrupt him every day. If he slips up even one bit, he's done for.
Nobles are being idiots and just acting against humanity's best interest without realizing it.
Cawl is starting to become more dangerous and might not listen to him forever.

Guilliman probably doesn't know why he's still fighting. 9,000 years ago, he had something to look up to. He had the hope that the Imperium might one day be a better place within a hundred years, or a thousand years at most. But now, after 10k years, not only is the Imperium far from the vision he had hoped for, it is actually worse in every way. His entire dream is dead. It must be like living in a nightmare.

I wouldn't be surprised if Guilliman was going through depression right now. There has been just so much on this guy's shoulders ever since he woke up. And things just keep piling on without any sort of relief.

 

He can't even do his job because some aristocratic despots are too greedy/self-centered to work with him. It's like no one other than Guilliman gives a damn about anyone. At the very least the Emperor could have said something like "Hey, I'm glad to see you safe" or something. But nah, it was just "By the way, I never saw you as a person. Now go fight wars my tool".

Edited July 7, 2017 by Tamiel

[DogWelder]

I read the book in three days.

 

IT. WAS. AWESOME!

 

 

Seriously, this book is great. I feel Haley really does know the Ultramarines well, and is portraying them how I always wished them to be. The characters are rich, you feel for the nobodies, and the action is good bolterbanging, without losing the detail. Like, a lot of the HH books nowadays are devolved to "Here comes a fight! bolter bolter punch kick the day is won!" Haley writes in just enough details of the fights to get you in the zone while not bogging you down in it, which is enjoyable.

 

On to the fluff itself. It really helps get one oriented with the current time period (though there's a whole amusing segment about how Guilliman has been trying to find out the actual year, and thinks it could be either early M41 or mid-late M42). Everything is explained better, including the Primaris, old marines, habits, and so on. Rather than be polarizing, I think it really opens up the mind about the Ultramarines and Guilliman, and shows new aspects always hinted at but never really expanded upon. A few things are mildly rankling, but that's mainly a double reflection from the story itself, where you recognize your heroes are not perfect. 

 

Some things to pick out:

 

- There is now an 11th company to the Chapter; their trim is light blue, and it consists entirely of Primaris marines.

- The first set of Primaris marines to reinforce the Chapter after M'kar's invasion consisted of 300 dudes, a little less than the number lost in the campaign. 

- New ships and new tactics! Specialist ships exist for the deployment of Inceptor marines.

- There are now 9 Chapters guarding Ultramar of 500 worlds. Hefty.

- Guilliman realizes he's breaking with the codex in many ways, but it makes sense (probably going along the lines of "you see this as dogma, I see this as guidelines").

- Ventris is still alive and Captain of the 4th, and Guilliman likes him (reminds him of Thiel); this means all of the McNeill series is canonized. However, Haley writes him so much more as an Ultramarine than McNeill ever did, which makes me like him more. 

 

I think he saw Thiel in Cato as well. Its pretty odd but I think both of them inherited something from Thiel.

 

Cato inherited the bold, daring spirit of Thiel that was not afraid to engage in monumental gambles with hundreds of Ultramarine lives at stake because the payoff would be worth it.

 

Ventris inherited Thiel's compassion and humility at wanting to serve his Primarch and the Ultramarines selflessly. He also is much more open minded as in the books he seems like he genuinely has a disdain for all unnecessary loss of sentient life; human and alien.

[derLumpi]

I think I have to order this book right now! Thanks guys! :)

[Seahawk]

In reference to the timeline, WHTV says:

 

 

"Effectively, at the event-horizon of the 41st millennium's end as the warp rips the galaxy in half, time sort of breaks. For a few places it's been hours since it's happened, and for some, over a century."

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

 

Reading it now.

 

Loved the start as they prepared to battle Fulgrim. Loved that battle. Guy Haley captured the urgency of it SO well! I'm well beyond the beginning of the novel and I'm still really enjoying it.

 

He also did well introducing the Primaris, and the squad he focuses on is a solid intimate portrait of these new marines going forward.

 

I was a fan of Guy Haley's when he first started. He has not disappointed and he is solid so far. Ye, enjoyed Pharos too!

 

 

 

When I was entering the table top game a couple years ago, it has reminded me why it came down to the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels as to what army I would invest in and play!

How's the portayal of Guilliman? From the leaks I got to read, he appeared more of a dictator, something I dislike.

That's an interesting take on it, but I see it a little differently...

 

You ever get to the point where your parents let you stay alone at the house while they go somewhere for the weekend, and you promise it's all going to be okay, but then they get home and there's a dead lady in the bath tub and drug dealers passed out on the lawn?

 

That's kind of how I see Guilliman and that's a continuation of his 'presence' in Gathering Storm III. He's just come home to a sink full of dishes and the goldfish is being eaten by the cat... he's just furious about it.

I do not have an issue with what he does. I have an issue with how he does it. He reminds me of the Injustice Superman, a the end justifies the means guy. For example, he said the planetary governors will fall in line or die. That is careless and cruel. He seems like he lost his patience. Gathering Storm did not paint a picture of a cliché (maybe a little), but a human being. I have said before that physical attributes are not what make you human, but your soul. This is why I was so excited about the model, to find a leader worth something in 40k. I was hoping for an Augustus, but he slowly seems to turning into a Nero, if you understand what I am saying. This seems to be building up a resistance inside of me. Yes, I take morality very serious, to a point where I wouldn't associate with injustice and downright evilness in a game. It makes me feel highly uneasy :D

You know that Augustus literally had almost all of his political enemies murdered, right?

[Brother Captain Ed]

Speaking as an educator with a degree in classical civilization: that's a bit of an oversimplification.

[Ishagu]

The novel was pretty fantastic and I'm looking forward to the next one :-)

 

Some really great moments in the book, the final chapters were thrilling.

 

I found the way Marneus Calgar felt to be unusual - He seems to have developed little guy syndrome. Guilliman has not insulted or belittled him - he even recognises his abilities and contributions to Ultramar.

Calgar is comparing himself to the Primarch in his mind and it's making his past accomplishments seem lesser.

 

It's taking away from his character significantly in my eyes. To me he was someone who ruled out of duty and honour, but he appears more human and petty now :-(

[Marcus Arias]

Took the book on holiday and read it within 2 days. Really gripping stuff, My key points were:

 

•  I loved the way its not all Bolter Porn and Guy really takes the time to develop the older characters and introduce the new Primaris guys.
• Re-establishing the Tetrarchs
• Guilliman's character - he was written extremely well
• Calgar's guilt - though I have not read any other books with Calgar in so this is my only depiction of the Character.

Things I wanted to see more of:

• The indomitus Crusade, I feel that it was very short lived and there's a rich history there;
• Mortarion - I was looking forward to Blade vs Scythe!