Did Shrike get the shaft again?

[Mr. Poe]

Stats: 12" move, 2+ WS/BS, 4 S/T, 5 wounds, 5 attacks, and a 3+

 

Equipment:

1. Ravens Talons: user strength, AP -3, D3 damage and can re-roll wounds.
2. Iron Halo: 4+ invulnerable save

       

Special Rules:

1. Chapter Master: You can  re-rolls of failed hit rolls for friends RG units within 6"
2. Winged Deliverance: You can re-roll failed charge rolls for friendly RG jump pack units with 6"

And he's 150 points. 

 

At first I was really annoyed when I saw that he still has a 2+ armor save. It really ticked me off, specially because a lot of the other characters are still rocking  2+ like Calgar, Captain Sicarius, Captain Lysander, Pedro Kantor, High Marshal Helbrecht, Vulkan and the whole lineup of BA, SW and DA characters. The points for these guys fluctuates seemingly without reason....for example Lysander is 150 points same as Shrike while Kantor is 170 points if I remember correctly. 

 

Anyway, a drink or two later and a quick flip through the rest of the leaks and I started to feel a little better. Seem like the ability to re-roll charges are a rare commodity. I think I only saw something similar on one of the space wolf sheets. It's pretty powerful as that increases your odds of charging off the deep strike quite a bit. The Chapter Master special rule is pretty nifty too.

 

Also, one of my big issues with Shrike in previous editions was that you could easily replace him with a equally able captain for less points. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore. 

 

What do you guy think? Just for the Wings of Deliverance rule alone he seems like an auto include. 

[Race Bannon]

Since I stopped focusing on the leaks (because my primary duty is to watch for rule breaking), then I'm a little out of the rules loop. Does the CM rule affect to-hit for shooting and/or fight phase?

[Mr. Poe]

It doesn't differentiate so my guess is you re-roll both in the shooting and assault phases. 

[Race Bannon]

If true, then he didn't get much of a shaft in my opinion.  But I agree that he should be "better" than a stock option dude.  No doubt Raven's Talons are better than Lightning Claws but will need to see the difference.

 

If anything, it's confirmed he is the Chapter Master ^_^

[Cordova]

For my mind he seems ok.. Sure, the lack of 2+ is a bit of a kick but not necessarily the end of the world.

 

He lets models within 6 reroll charges, and reroll hits. With deepstriking now, I think he will really help out - rolling for that 9" is much friendlier with a reroll. 

 

Also, 5 attacks base is helpful.

[Mr. Poe]

Yea, the D3 damage on the claws will also help with the multi wounds models we've been seeing around. 

 

Seems like his role will be much the same except that he can actually do it better than other characters now. Don't expect him to be winning fights with the more beatstick characters but he will be chewing through light/medium infantry just like before. 

[The Yak]

Hey no one shafts Shrike!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

rerollable charges seems like a huge deal if Shrike can himself deepstrike.  Otherwise... pretty bland.

 

Anyone find any info on chapter tactics? 

[Baza]

no chapter tactics in the books yet, probally wont be until they get their official codex relases.

[Race Bannon]

With shiny Lightning Claws, Shrike was never a heavy hitter in my opinion.  Hack n slash yo.

[MajorNese]

Without 2+ armour and Str increase, he won't be a heavy hitter, never was. Though AP-3 is nice, and the new wounding system combined with the reroll will make him a noticeable threat to most things.

 

But the real utility lies in the following combination:

-Every friendly unit rerolls to hit in his vicinity. Ranged or CC, tank or infantry, whatever

-And it affects unit, not model. Conga lines, so one model ends up in 6", and everyone profits

-Combined with 12" move, this can shift as necessary. Move heavy weapons, still hit something. Then move Shrike back

-deep strike doesn't scatter, doesn't delay. Drop Shrike, terminators, assault marines, whatever in a nicely positioned bubble for an instant firebase. That charges targets all around.

-Assault marines can take 3 plasma pistols per squad, which can overcharge. Reroll to hit means less casualties when doing so.

 

Guess my initial lists for the coming campaign will include Shrike and 2 assault squads for just that. Arrive somewhere, plasma something to death, charge something else. Maybe include scouts/LSS/scout bikers as lure, so enemies overreach and open up individual units for this surprise attack. Nobody wants their spearhead walking back to save the backfield campers/fire support.

[Race Bannon]

Yeah ... that's ... nuts.

 

He is almost a bargain for all that.

[Mr. Poe]

It looks like the formula they use for the Chapter Master characters this edition is something like this:

 

1. Improve Captain profile in one or more of the following ways:
   1. +1 wound
   2. +1 attack
   3. Increase Save to 2+ w/o terminator armour
2. Equip with unique wargear
3. Replace Rites of Battle with Chapter Master special rule
4. Add one unique special rule. 

There is no doubt that Shrike is going to be a strong asset. The question is if he is proportional to other chapter master equivalent characters.  

 

Compare him to Kantor who has 6 wounds and 4 attacks with a 2+ save. He's got a special bolter thats assault 4 @ -1AP and a vanilla power fist. He's got the Iron Halo, and Chapter Master rule which is typical. His unique rule is Oath of Rynn which adds 1 attack to Crimson Fist models within 6".

 

So the variance in points is a powerfist, the +2 armour save and his special rule which is arguably not that great. He clocks in at 170 points. Shrikes variance is a jump pack and his special rule which clocks him in at 150. That 20 point difference is the improved armour save and power fist....it kinda makes sense. 

 

Another comparison to look at is Khan clocking in at about 107 points on foot. He has the exact stats as a captain except he has a unique weapon (power sword equivalent to Shrikes lightning claws), the Rights of Battle special rule and a unique rule that adds 1 strength for units within 6" of him on the turn hey charge...That's a 33' variance from the stock captain model.

 

What do you think? Seem to me like Shrike might actually be worth his point in 8th edition! 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Mr. Poe

[Race Bannon]

Your analysis keeps making Shrike better and better.  Auto-include, for competition Matched Play I suppose.

[MajorNese]

Compared to other named character leaders, his versatility is considerably higher IMO. Reroll to hit is far more useful than +1S or +1A, as it affects both CC and ranged. Overcharge doesn't risk as much, having him jump around a LandRaider or devastators would still have a good effect compared to the other characters' buffs, similarly to the ever-useful divination librarian. Combine with his free positioning (reinforce whatever point needs reinforcing, at a time of one's choosing) and charge reroll for the similarly positioning jump pack guys, that is just a nasty surprise for any situation. Close traps, assault backfield, reinforce critical points or just capturing and holding objectives when necessary.

Capitalizing on Shrike and more deep strikers/jump packs might be the defining difference between RG and other vanilla marines, at least until a full codex with chapter tactics hits. The wide synergy and flexibility clearly sets him apart from juys like Kantor, who is just a classical deathstar core component, and thus limited/predictable. Like in 5th edition, where every single marine army had a land raider full of terminators with a multiplier character. Powerful, but predictable and inflexible.

€dit: Man, maybe I get too excited. That kind of surprise shenanigans is clearly my favourite army component, and new deep strike/reserves makes this so damn easy...

Edited May 31, 2017 by MajorNese

[Claws and Effect]

Shrike looks way better than he was.

 

- He's 35 points less in an edition that has seen point costs skyrocket.

 

- He has force multiplier abilities that can be used by anyone at any time, as opposed to just one unit type that has to deploy with him.

 

- He got a buff in staying power with a couple more wounds, and the Raven's Talons actually sound mean, as opposed to just being Master Crafted lightning claws. Which they still are, because Shrike is always within 6" of himself.....

 

Yeah. He got a decent buff. He's still not a great beatstick, but he was never supposed to be.

 

This version of him actually sounds quite a bit like the Shrike from the novels

[Nusquam]

He is going to rip and tear anything T7 and lower; rerolls to hit and wound, even at S4, with AP-3 and Dd3 is going to threaten a lot of things. Combine him with VV and deepstrike them both 9.01" away and reroll the charge. Now that you just have to charge within 1" it's essentially 2d6+1" charge ranges you can reroll. Drop some shooty termis next to him and dakka things as well.

 

He's even going to be good at killing flyers. They're going to be T6-7 for light aircraft. He has fly so he can charge them. 2+ to hit with rerolls, then a 5+ with shred at AP-3 and Dd3 is spooky.

[Claws and Effect]

That would be embarrassing.

 

Get shot down by one dude shredding your plane with claws.

 

Best pilot ever....shot down by a melee attack.

[SyNidus]

Can definitely say Shrike has gotten better than he was. Being able to charge out of deepstrike along with the re-roll and chapter master trait is awesome!

[ShinyRhino]

My feeling is that the difference between 2+ armor and 3+ armor is almost negligible in the new edition anyways. You can't drop him to lower than his 4+ save, so fiddling over a save difference of one 1 in an edition where you can't shoot characters behind a screen is pointless. With his abilities and jump pack, he'll be dictating the fights he gets into.

[Mr. Poe]

Yea, I agree. It seems negligible vs. shooting now in 8th which was when it hurt the most in 7th. It only really makes a difference in close combat but that on you to avoid dangerous situations. 

[Ishagu]

Shrike is awesome.

 

Deepstrike multiple Jump units and him turn 1, charge with re rolls. Could be great.

[Carcosa]

Isn't the chance to make the 9" charge with a reroll still under 50%?

[Race Bannon]

Maybe. But a re-roll is way better than none at all.

[Mr. Poe]

The odds to roll a 9+ on 2D6 are 27.8%. That only increases to 35.5% chance with a re-roll.

 

Like Race said, it's better than nothing. The only other way to re-roll charges that I found is the psychic power Veil of Time.