8th Edition Ultramarine Tactica and Unit discussion.

[Bmseifer]

A couple of thoughts:

 

If I have a Land Raider upgraded to be commanded by Chronus, it wouldn't be reduced in BS when it takes wounds as Chronus' BS is used instead?

 

If I deploy a unit embarked on a transport I essentially get a free 3" move if I disembark them on turn 1?

 

 

Oh and by the way, just played a game today and Guilliman is still a beast in cc. His sword cuts through infantry like the daemonic butter they are.

[LordDrakon]

So I'm about 12 games into 8th now and I have to say I'm loving how strong Guilliman is. This is my current 1.5k and 2k lists. The razorbacks are absolutely insane 12" move to get devs and tacs where they need to be and than just death ball up with Guilliman cause reroll hits and wounds is almost too good.
Ok I think I figured some mech options, pretty standard for me start with Guilliman but now add in 6 razorback with twin assault cannons for some turn one metal box protection(and 72 str 6 ap-1 dmg 1 shots) and we have msu mech born again!

Battalion/Super Heavy Aux Detachments
9 Command points
8 drops

HQ/LoW

Roboute Guilliman(LoW) 360

Primaris Lieutenant 
Master Crafted Powersword 
Total 80

Primaris Lieutenant 
Master Crafted Powersword 
Total 80

Troops

5-Tactical Squad 
3-bolters-
combi-plas 
Grav Cannnon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 216

5-Tactical Squad 
3-bolters-
Grav Cannnon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 201

5-Tactical Squad 
3-bolters-
combi-plas 
Grav Cannnon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 216

Heavy

5 Devastator Squad 
1 Bolter 
Cherub 
4 Grav Cannon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 280

5 Devastator Squad 
1 Bolter 
Cherub 
4 Grav Cannon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 280

5 Devastator Squad 
1 Bolter 
Cherub 
4 Grav Cannon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 280

1993


Patrol/Super Heavy Aux Detachments
6 Command points
6 drops

HQ/LoW

Roboute Guilliman(LoW) 360

Primaris Lieutenant 
Master Crafted Powersword 
Total 80

Troops

5-Tactical Squad 
3-bolters-
combi-plas 
Grav Cannnon
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 216

5-Tactical Squad 
3-bolters-
combi-plas 
Grav Cannnon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 216

Elites
Company Ancient 63

Heavy
5 Devastator Squad 
1 Bolter 
Cherub 
4 Grav Cannon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 280

5 Devastator Squad 
1 Bolter 
Cherub 
4 Grav Cannon 
Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 
Total 280n

1495

Edited June 12, 2017 by Seahawk
cannot have individual points

[Frater Cornelius]

How much better is Gman than a bunch of other HQs though? Marines hit and (mostly) wound pretty well as it is. When looking at mono Primaris or mixed with Marines, 360 seems a whole lot to spend compared to a Captain and a Lieutenant to re-roll 1s to hit and wound.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman is better in damage output than any other Marine characters, and if you surround him with Sicarans, Grav Centurions and other high damage units he'll magnify that damage significantly. Re roll to hit AND wound, and an additional 3 Command points are very powerful buffs.

[Captain Idaho]

If you are surrounding Guilliman with shooting platforms that don't want to get up close you're either not taking advantage of Guilliman's killing power in close combat or are moving your shooting elements too close to the enemy. Have you seen what damage Ork Mobz can do now? Scary stuff.

 

Guilliman good no doubt but I'd say as part of an assault force or surrounded by Tactical squads and Terminators who are all closing with the enemy.

[crazyterran]

For lower points games, I was kind of thinking of running Chronus in a Razorback. Making a Twin AC 2+ to hit isnt all that bad, especially if you are running a 1000 point game. 68 points sorts your HQ, especially since you are probably taking an assback or three anyways.

 

Then again, running Quad Las 3 Predators, Chronus, and 3 Assbacks in a 1000 point Heavy Support FOC list doesnt seem to bad either. 974 points, could throw a few Hunter Killers or something on. Since you buy dedicated transports for each other unit you purchase, you can buy your predators a razorback.

[Ishagu]

If you are surrounding Guilliman with shooting platforms that don't want to get up close you're either not taking advantage of Guilliman's killing power in close combat or are moving your shooting elements too close to the enemy. Have you seen what damage Ork Mobz can do now? Scary stuff.

 

Guilliman good no doubt but I'd say as part of an assault force or surrounded by Tactical squads and Terminators who are all closing with the enemy.

He's also an effective counter charge unit :-)

[Prot]

I think his Aura is huge. There's plenty of damaging stuff in the codex but a lot of it is expensive, and he's just going to make it hit a lot more, and you can still take that cheap LT. for the other aura. Plus as mentioned, I actually value those 3 Command Points a lot.

 

IMHO Guilliman is one unit that makes Centurions work. But oddly enough it could be either variant! Assault or Devastator.

 

After seeing some of the "true" assault armies of 8th, I really would not want to be advancing him. Against Tau/Eldar etc... sure, but real assault armies just do it better (overall). He can only kill so much and the rest of the codex is very well geared for massed mid range fire power... just like before! 

[Aothaine]

I think his Aura is huge. There's plenty of damaging stuff in the codex but a lot of it is expensive, and he's just going to make it hit a lot more, and you can still take that cheap LT. for the other aura. Plus as mentioned, I actually value those 3 Command Points a lot.

 

IMHO Guilliman is one unit that makes Centurions work. But oddly enough it could be either variant! Assault or Devastator.

 

After seeing some of the "true" assault armies of 8th, I really would not want to be advancing him. Against Tau/Eldar etc... sure, but real assault armies just do it better (overall). He can only kill so much and the rest of the codex is very well geared for massed mid range fire power... just like before! 

 

Completely agree here. Also something to make note of is that when you pick him up in a 2000pt list he is nearly 20% of your army. Sure he is really good, but you lose out on a LOT of other options. 

 

Something I have started to notice is that big units like Guilliman have a huge weakness in that they have a hard time keeping up with the output their cost can provide if invested in other units and they usually have far fewer wounds than what you could get with the same cost. Now they do give special benefits that amp up the rest of your forces but I don't think most competitive lists 2000 or less will put him in. It would be better to grab like two librarians and a captain or a captain a lieutenant and a librarian.  

[LordDrakon]

Honestly, I can't explain how strong reroll hits and wounds is. I played with 4 knights which is strong as well but man did I feel the no rerolls.  Guilliman not only provides the best rerolls in the game but give you 3 command points and a very strong counter assault unit. I can't see not taking him in any ultras list what else could possibly add more to each list I posted? Right now I have hard time building any other imperial armies cause reroll 1s is weak, and regular chapter masters are only hits. To be fair I've played alot of games vs tau and IG. I played 2 assault armies 1 was wolves which was my 1st game of 8th(do not assault wulfen just shoot them) and 1 nids. Not once did I wish for more dudes, even against the IG which was infantry and smite spam......

[Ishagu]

Calgar is fantastic, really is, but Guilliman is only 100 points more.

 

His downside is that he's a LoW and can't be healed by Apothecaries for some silly reason :-(

 

If I was strapped for points I think I would bring Calgar however - he does allow me to bring more in an army.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Ishagu

[LordDrakon]

Also deathball note, Guilliman can pile in if folks charge within 3" @Ishagu Yeah at 1k i'd take Calgar forsure, Or maybe if I wanted to not focus on a Death ball Other Ultra HQ but right now even playing maelstrom I haven't had an issue. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by LordDrakon

[Aothaine]

Honestly, I can't explain how strong reroll hits and wounds is. I played with 4 knights which is strong as well but man did I feel the no rerolls.  Guilliman not only provides the best rerolls in the game but give you 3 command points and a very strong counter assault unit. I can't see not taking him in any ultras list what else could possibly add more to each list I posted? Right now I have hard time building any other imperial armies cause reroll 1s is weak, and regular chapter masters are only hits. To be fair I've played alot of games vs tau and IG. I played 2 assault armies 1 was wolves which was my 1st game of 8th(do not assault wulfen just shoot them) and 1 nids. Not once did I wish for more dudes, even against the IG which was infantry and smite spam......

 

I dunno. You don't have a lot of bodies. I worry that ever death will be felt far to greatly. But I suppose it will be bloody either way. I know that rerolling to hit and wound is really good. The amount of fire you are unleashing is quite a bit as well. But isn't RB's rerolls a bubble? You will need to have everything super tight if so. Could be bad when a unit with 30 Boyz hits your lines or 30 Gaunts, or etc..

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

Honestly, I can't explain how strong reroll hits and wounds is. I played with 4 knights which is strong as well but man did I feel the no rerolls. Guilliman not only provides the best rerolls in the game but give you 3 command points and a very strong counter assault unit. I can't see not taking him in any ultras list what else could possibly add more to each list I posted? Right now I have hard time building any other imperial armies cause reroll 1s is weak, and regular chapter masters are only hits. To be fair I've played alot of games vs tau and IG. I played 2 assault armies 1 was wolves which was my 1st game of 8th(do not assault wulfen just shoot them) and 1 nids. Not once did I wish for more dudes, even against the IG which was infantry and smite spam......

I dunno. You don't have a lot of bodies. I worry that ever death will be felt far to greatly. But I suppose it will be bloody either way. I know that rerolling to hit and wound is really good. The amount of fire you are unleashing is quite a bit as well. But isn't RB's rerolls a bubble? You will need to have everything super tight if so. Could be bad when a unit with 30 Boyz hits your lines or 30 Gaunts, or etc..

Well, arguably, Big Papa's re roll bubble is there for the express purpose of preventing 30 Boyz from ever hitting you....

[LordDrakon]

@Aothaine your right in the fact that a multi assault can hurt, but you can layer and still be within 6" if The big man. The reason I went mech was for those times when you go second or some one deploys out of 30" give you a nice protection from shots for your devs/tacs. Getting a 12" movment plus 3" disembark is amazing for things like grav and getting into rapid fire range without having to get the -1 for heavy weapons.

[LordDrakon]

Well had my 1st 8th edition tournament today! Good news I won! We play 3 rounds with maelstrom missions, 1st round vs tau double stormsurges 3 pathfinder squads and drop melta crisis suits, all lead by shadowsun. Was able to table him in 3 turns, great 1st game for me. 2nd game was vs Tzeentch smite spam a bunch of pinkhorors a deamon prince, lord of change, the changling a herald and fateweaver. Very tigh game he broke away with  maelstrom points but I was able to table him by turn 4. Last game was vs admech with a knight I got really lucky with my  maelstrom and was up 12-0 turn 2 very bloody game he was left with Dominus and 3 destroyers and I was left with 5 marines. All in all a great day and a great introduction to 8th, my opponents all cursed Guilliman and his rerolls! also my list was...

 

Patrol/Super Heavy Aux Detachments 

6 Command points

6 drops

 

HQ/LoW

 

Roboute Guilliman(LoW) 360

 

Primaris Lieutenant 

Master Crafted Boltrifle 

Total 74

 

Troops

 

5-Tactical Squad 

3-bolters-0

combi-plas 

Grav Cannnon 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 

Total 218

 

5-Tactical Squad 

3-bolters-

combi-plas 

Grav Cannnon 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 

Total 218

 

Elites

Company Ancient 63

 

Heavy

5 Devastator Squad 

1 Bolter 

Cherub 

4 Grav Cannon 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 

Total 282

 

5 Devastator Squad 

1 Bolter 

Cherub 

4 Grav Cannon 

Razorback with Twin Assault Cannon 

Total 282

 

 

1497

Edited June 12, 2017 by Seahawk
cannot have individual points

[Prot]

I'm surprised how much Grav you're using still.

 

I was going to build a new squad of Grav cents and then I thought.... no better do up a las/ missile set of cents and put them in a reroll bubble. Then I saw the squad cost for such a unit, yikes!

 

Gratz on the win! Would you throw Primaris in there or not worth it?

[Brother Captain Ed]

I'm surprised how much Grav you're using still.

 

I'm not. Grav is still *really* good. It's just not pants-on-head retarded good. Good S, good volume of shots, good AP, good damage, Guilliman rerolls with you all day. Grav is still on the VIP list...it just may not be throwing the party anymore. Edited June 12, 2017 by Brother Captain Ed

[LordDrakon]

@prot Through testing I've been very happy with grav esp with rerolls. Without Guilliman maybe not as 5s to wound bigger things can be rough.I've done a pure primaris with Guilliman and it works magic too. But mech gets you less drop,some mobility and some nice protection from a round of shooting for your marines. ATM I think mech is the strongest sm build but more bodies on foot can work as well.

[LordDrakon]

This is my primaris list I gota rework it abit to fit 2 Lts in to ft into a battalion over a spearhead.

spearhead/Super Heavy Aux Detachment

7 Command points

HQ/LOW

Roboute Guilliman 360

Captain in Gravis Armour 
Boltstorm Gaunlet 
Master-Crafted Power Sword 
Total 137

Troops

5-Intercessor Squad 
Bolt Rifles 
Total 100

5-Intercessor Squad 
Bolt Rifles 
Total 100

5-Intercessor Squad 
Bolt Rifles 
Total 100

Elites

Primaris Ancient 
bolt rifle 
Total 65

Apothecary 
Total 65

Heavy
5 Hellblaster 
5 Plasma Incinerator 
total 190

5 Hellblaster 
5 Plasma Incinerator 
total 190

5 Hellblaster 
5 Plasma Incinerator 
total 190

1497

Edited June 12, 2017 by Seahawk
cannot have individual points

[Ishagu]

I think Grav is still great, especially because of D3 damage. You're wounding most things on 3s, tougher units on 4/5. Add Guilliman's re-roll and 3 Grav Cannons would be doing 14 wounds on a 3+ save vehicle or monster in one round.

[Bmseifer]

So what units are looking strong for us so far? I have only managed to get a single game in at 50 power so haven't been able to playtest alot of units.

 

On paper I think the whirlwind with castellan launcher looks like a nice cheap unit to put lots of wounds on hordes and even tougher units like vehicles. Add in some sort of reroll to hit/wound and I think they will be a great backfield unit this edition

 

Razorbacks with las are a nobrainer here.  37pts Cheaper than a predator with a single twin lasc with only 1 less wound. Also looks very strong with assault cannons.

 

I can see myself taing a spearhead detachment with 3 whirlwinds and 3 razorbacks for somewhere around 7-800pts and have alot of firepower and mobility.

 

Also Guilliman will probably always have a spot in my lists. He increases the offensive power of units by a big margain. Assuming BS4+ and 4+ to wound he adds more than 100% output to a unit. At 3+/3+ almost 80% so if we place him in a clutch position he can make his points back in just one round of shooting, taking out the opponents key targets. And lets not forget he is a beast in combat himself.

 

Regarding infantry I'm not that impressed though. Things just seem to die that fast this edition and deploying squads out of transports looks like a really bad idea.

 

To add to my previous detachment I might take another spearhead with 3 devastator squad and another 3 razorbacks. Or try to get some scouts in so I can deply to stop my opponent from deepstriking where I dont want him.

 

As HQ choices I'd probably run Tigurius to deny the powers I don't want to face (In matched play where we can only play the same power once, I think it will be really nice to have the ability to deny) and maybe a Techmarine 

[Seahawk]

Is there anything that gives bonuses on the to-wound roll? Itd be nice for the emperors sword to activate on a 5+ or lower.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't believe so.

 

I'm thinking a Venerable Dreadnought with a twin autocannon and an assault cannon might be a good investment. 10 shots a turn at -1 ap is pretty good. WS and BS 2+ means it maintains accuracy even when moving.

[Prot]

My Ven dread is going to be twin las/missiles. I've tried a vanilla build and the assault cannon I feel like is going to do a lot more work on Razorbacks.

 

Good to hear about Grav. I really was looking forward to using my Assault cents more, and I'm glad I didn't glue Lascannon arms on my new cent squad.... just so expensive! (however with Guilliman I imagine all that las/missiles is going to annihilate a lot of stuff.)

 

So is Guilliman looking like he's going to be essentially be the core of every competitive Ultra list?