First 8E Games: 7/9 Raptors VS GK

[Nusquam]

So my Templar friend and I did a Power 70 game.

I took:

• Captain with Relic plade and combi plas
• 10 sniper scouts with camo and a ML
• 5 bolter scouts with a HB
• LSS
• 10 Tacs with a combi plas, plas, and grav cannon
• Rhino
• Knight Crusader with RFBC

He Took:

• High Marshall
• Crusade squad loaded for CC
• LRC
• Stormtalon
• Knight Paladin

We did the Search and Destroy deployment and Retrieval mission. I wont do a play by play but LRs soak up serious damage. Knights RFBC can be puny or hilariously dangerous. Stormtalons are scary with twin assault cannons. Using rhinos to ram LRs is hilarious and effective. The new movement values are pretty cool. Contemptors are really fast.
 

Also more on the cover thing, units only get cover if they are all entirely on or in terrain. Not if they obscured by it, or if one model is out of it. Only in optional terrain rules do only vehicles and monsters get cover by being obscured. Infantry never get cover by being obscured unless they are withing 1" of a barricade that separates them from the shooter. That's pretty weird.

Also I really don't like the new cover system.

I also want to invest in some assassins as well. Eversors assaulting from 9.01" for 3d6"(+"1") turn one is scary. Vindicares are going to mulch characters.

[SyNidus]

Awesome stuff. I was wondering how assault cannons hold up this edition. Split between choosing the Twin Plasmacannons or Assault Cannons for my Stormravens.

How did your scout snipers fare? were they any good or would it be better to use a vindicare instead?

 

Did you manage to get CC done and what was it like? 

[Nusquam]

Scouts never got to shoot infantry. BT player was too conservative with his LRC. Did do a few mortal wounds on it though.

 

Got into CC with his knight and my contemptor. I punched him for 6 to bring it down to 1 wound left. Then he did 6 bringing my dread down to 4. Then on his turn the dread died and I then shot the knight.

 

I think scouts will be good at sniping out apothecaries and the like. Descent at killing infantry. Vindicares are better at killing but being one model harder at holding objectives. But being a character your vindicare will probably never get shot.

[Race Bannon]

Stock Ravens for bullet-belching for me.

 

The summary is good to read as it seems to follow my impressions so far. How long was the game?

[Nusquam]

Game was about an hour and a half.

 

Also the storm talon can move really far, up to 50", but he went too far into a corner and was forced to drop into hover to avoid being limited to ab90 degree arc and minimum movement. Which got it killed. Flyers are def better all around, especially having 360 degree shooting arcs and native split fire. But they're easy to over extend.

[MajorNese]

Game was about an hour and a half.

 

Also the storm talon can move really far, up to 50", but he went too far into a corner and was forced to drop into hover to avoid being limited to ab90 degree arc and minimum movement. Which got it killed. Flyers are def better all around, especially having 360 degree shooting arcs and native split fire. But they're easy to over extend.

Something to notice too - Ongoing Reserves are gone. Your flyer leaves the board, it's dead.

[Nusquam]

Had a second game.

 

The Relic is absolutely terrible. The sole victory condition is being closest to the relic. Just bubble your army around it first and endure as much shooting as you can and win. it is definitely not a good "Matched Play" mission by any stretch.

 

Predator annihilators are, as suspected, very potent. Lascannons are just about mandatory in this edition to be able to deal wounds to LRs and other big things. I saw the stats for a volcano cannon; it is insanely good at dropping big things. Depending on how much a Falchion costs in points I may always bring one if FW ports over the "twinlinked=twin guns" of GW. I imagine Issodon will have the Chapter Master rule to grant nearby Raptors rerolls to hits. Him, a void shield for a 4++, and a Falchion are probably going to be my go-to if my predictions are correct. That will likely be 1/3 of a tournament level point list.

[GreyCrow]

Game was about an hour and a half.

 

Also the storm talon can move really far, up to 50", but he went too far into a corner and was forced to drop into hover to avoid being limited to ab90 degree arc and minimum movement. Which got it killed. Flyers are def better all around, especially having 360 degree shooting arcs and native split fire. But they're easy to over extend.

 

Are fliers still limited to 90° arc ? Where you using Death from the Skies rules ?

 

I did not see this 90° limit in the flier rules anymore. Perhaps I'm misled.

[Nusquam]

The flyers themselves have "Supersonic" which is basically the old flyer rules.

[GreyCrow]

The flyers themselves have "Supersonic" which is basically the old flyer rules.

 

Ah right, missed this!

 

Quick question, it seems that you have to deploy fliers on the board normally like any other units, rather than the forced reserves of previous editions. How did that affect your target priority ? How did the -1 to Hit apply to your game ? 

 

It just seems super awkward and super fragile. I understand that they can be deployed in a corner to minimize what can be brought to bear on them, but lascannons have a pretty decent reach.

Edited June 2, 2017 by GreyCrow

[Nusquam]

Well he did put the Talon right in my face turn one so I had to take care of it.

 

The -1 wasn't too painful, I just whiffed hard. Batches of 1's over and over. But flyers are definitely light tanks now it feels like.

[GreyCrow]

Well he did put the Talon right in my face turn one so I had to take care of it.

 

The -1 wasn't too painful, I just whiffed hard. Batches of 1's over and over. But flyers are definitely light tanks now it feels like.

 

Ok good to know.

 

I just feel that they're going to be obliterated Turn 1 by my opponents. They are too big/high to use LOS blocking terrain used by my meta, cover saves don't apply to them and the -1 to Hit is just not as good as Snap Shots obviously.

 

Considering they are also worth almst double what they were worth, I just have lots of trouble finding arguments to bring them in.

 

I mean it would require some serious threat saturation, but I don't see what they bring just right now :P

[Claws and Effect]

That's why you say screw it and just don't bring anything smaller than a Stormraven.

[GreyCrow]

Haha indeed !

 

Or 4 Stormtalons :P

[Nusquam]

With optional terrain rules ruins give cover.

 

I also noticed theres no disembark restriction. You can move 50" in fly and them disembark next turn and keep being airborne.

 

With most things needing to be deployed you can throw off target priority depending.

[GreyCrow]

With optional terrain rules ruins give cover.

 

I also noticed theres no disembark restriction. You can move 50" in fly and them disembark next turn and keep being airborne.

 

With most things needing to be deployed you can throw off target priority depending.

 

Can you run a breakdown of these optional terrain rules please ?

 

Because from what I saw, only infantry ever gets to benefit from cover now, or need to be 50% obscured (which means fliers need some pretty tall ruins) but perhaps I got it wrong

 

Alternative strategy would be to pick the terrain side with the least cover and play on LOS blockage on the enemy side.

Edited June 3, 2017 by GreyCrow

[Nusquam]

Non vehicles and non monsters never benefit from cover by being obscured. Only if they are within it.

 

Theres optional rules for each of the GW terrain kits. Ruins give obscure cover to vehicles and monsters. Im away from my comp at the moment to see each breakdown

[GreyCrow]

Ok thanks, that's what I thought.

 

Still, the lack of cover in the base rules is a tactical dumbfest.

 

"Oh yeah, no need to hide our weakspot because we are SPEHSS MEHREENS LOLZORZ"

[MajorNese]

Still, the lack of cover in the base rules is a tactical dumbfest.

Even worse...we had an hour long discussion upon release...units never gain cover bonus unless ALL models are within the terrain zone. One guy behind the ruin, out of LoS of the shooting unit, would prevent that bonus. And would be the first to die to the allocated wounds, so everyone else from then on gains cover bonus. Neither intuitive nor logical.

[Race Bannon]

I can see how the lone dude doesn't benefit and I think that's how it was in a previous edition. Yet it could get clunky and this edition seems designed to be relatively simple. So although against logic it *is* intuitive as a rule applies to all models in a unit. All or none in this case. That is very simple ... Too simple? ... To apply in any cover scenario.

 

Yet, could this mean that deployment gets even MORE tactical?

 

Think about it: snipers are good. This rule prevent large sniper squads being deployed. So, with a 5-man unit you'll want to use cover all of them can use. But there are only so many terrain pieces you could use with that doctrine. Or maybe you shouldn't use the squad (as an extreme option)? Then again, Cityfight will be cover heaven.

[MajorNese]

Think about it: snipers are good. This rule prevent large sniper squads being deployed. So, with a 5-man unit you'll want to use cover all of them can use. But there are only so many terrain pieces you could use with that doctrine. Or maybe you shouldn't use the squad (as an extreme option)? Then again, Cityfight will be cover heaven.

Considering how there is no bonus for using larger squads (free veteran sergeant upgrade per 5 models), this shouldn't be much of a problem. Thanks to no templates, placing the models in base to base wouldn't be a downside, suddenly those 10 snipers have a tiny space requirement.

[GreyCrow]

Regarding cover, here's a fun way to beat the system!

 

Since we choose which models die, we can start by the guys outside cover. When they're dead, the remaning guys start getting the benefits of cover :D

We have to remember that we allocate wounds, not automatically allocated to the closest model!

 

Unless I'm mistaken :D

 

___

 

@Race : the game is indeed going to be more tactical! Here are a few key takeaways from my recent games and theory craft :

 

- Vehicles are more survivable against med S high ROF (think Scatter Lasers/High Yield Missile Pods/Devourers). It takes 135 Scatter Lasers/Devourers to bring a Rhino down, 40 High Yield Missile Pod shots (saving grace is -1 AP and D3 dmg avg'd at 2) to bring a Rhino down. Conversely, it also only takes 7.7 Lascannon shots to bring a Rhino down at 3.5 damage per average vs 5.8, so the net survivability gain is minimal considering the high variance in Lascannon damage.

Remember, reliable AT weapons now need both High S, High AP and High Dmg. Any lack of any one will make your basic vehicles extremely survivable!

 

- High variance of dice rolls balanced with more control = more careful when engaging. The lower amount of reroll opportunities, coupled with a higher variance in rolls (see Lascannon for random DMG) means that things can either go very well very quickly or very wrong very quickly. Because the game is less predictible, being a lot more cautious with how you play your units will help a lot to ensure survivability.

 

- Due to the cover mechanics now, LOS blocking will be extremely more important.

 

- The removal of many deployment options makes me feel that the Marines are really gravitating towards 2 styles of warfare : Blitzkrieg style where you rely on armoured vehicles to provide early game survivability and targeting the nastier opponents to prepare for a late game fight with the boots / Gunline defensive more about ambushing and bringing the right tools at the right moment.

 

- The scope of the game has changed with the new deployment rules. Previously, it was possible to buy 1 to 2 turns to set up a strategy and choose when you engage by keeping stuff off the board in reserves. Now, the battle begins when the engagement starts, troops are commited and there is no turning back. So, designing well oiled lists that act as one, rather than a number of individual units doing their thing is going to be paramount to victory.

 

- Therefore, I am a firm believer that spamming will become much more important than it was. Not spamming one kind of unit, but due to things being more powerful overall, critical mass of corps d'armes is going to be critical to ensure sustained firepower.

 

- Due to high variance and low model count, Marines are going to be a tough army to master ! Tactical positioning and setting the pace of the game through what you allow the enemy to shoot at is going to be key.

[Race Bannon]

I thought of that too, yet I think it's small comfort in relation to the concern of all-or-none cover saves. Combat squads makes the comfort better, I suppose.

 

So, really, the problem exists if the terrain placement is not preferred, which is a simple "too bad" :lol:

[GreyCrow]

Very true!

 

Which is why having an army that does not rely on such mechanics as the core pillar of its tactics is going to be a tremendous help :D

 

You're right that Combat Squads are going to be interesting for tactical options.

[Nusquam]

Had a third game. Brought a Knight Crusader with Thermal cannnon, some tacs, company vets loaded for bear, and shrike. The latter two were in a Raven, which can transport contemptors now. I fought a LRC dread head list and we played the scouring with hamer and anvil.

 

The thermal cannons was significantly better than the rapid fire battle cannon when it came to shooting dreads and vehicles. The S9 -4AP is amazing even before the d6 damage. One turn I used a command reroll for a 1 on the damage and got 5. The RFBC is great against a lot of things, but it's not the coverage specialist it was. The avenger is never bad. I spent the game kiting and killing and eventually won.

 

Two notes on the 'Raven.

• One, you can't disembark them without killing the contents instantly unless youre near a second floor because anyone not deployed within 3" dies. And the raven is about 4" off the ground.
• Two, transporting jump units in it means a 3" disembark plus a 12" move for a total of 15". Combine with the fact it doesn't have to drop into hover to disembark and moves up to 50" means you can deliver a dread and jump unit right into the heart of the enemy.

Mine died the third turn but weathered a lot of shooting. It's tough but you really want to blitz ASAP.