First 8E Games: 7/9 Raptors VS GK

[SyNidus]

Perhaps it is because your opponent had a noob amount of dedicated AT that could reliably take down the Stormravens?

 

2 Dual AC Dreads are capable of just stripping 12/14 wounds in a turn. To me that's not 'incredible' resilience from the Stormraven  When you start hitting your good weaponry on 5+, it's even further from incredible.

 

Maybe you have to play 2 of them to at least get to shoot with one. In this case, it's still far away from incredible.

 

The fact that you have to deploy them in the board Turn 1, with very little ability to take cover due to how big they are (and not all gaming clubs have terrain piece high enough to hide them).

 

The -1 to Hit is a joke at best, good to avoid shots from armies that already have trouble hitting you, but barely significant vs 2+/3+ armies with the proper tools.

 

So, basically, it works well if you have first turn and don't get seized. That's not reliable nor incredible

My opponent had dark reapers and fire dragons, 2 fire prisms, a host of bright lances. Not something i'd consider as noob anti-tank. Nor was my opponent a slouch either. Never said they're incredibly resilient either, they are incredible. Especially when you get first turn and can neutralise/weaken the anti-tank. I think the greatest threat is when you don't pick out his anti-tank weapons at the beginning.

 

The -1 is good. It's not too extreme but it is noticeable, especially when your opponent wants to use heavy weapons whilst trying to move away from them.

 

That being said, it's certainly no landraider and will die early in the game, especially if you're aggressive with them. This is acceptable because if you have positioned right, disembarking (whether by crashing or otherwise) the contents should be where they need to be to do their damage.

 

As for a 1 in 6 chance of getting seized on, well that's something you have to take in your stride. It's bound to happen sooner or later.

 

i've only played 3 games of 8th so far. We'll see how it pans out.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention - Threat overload is important for the survival of everything, Stormravens included.

Edited June 11, 2017 by SyNidus

[GreyCrow]

Obviously, which means that they are still gonna be a priority target, so you have to have more than one.

 

At 300 points each, that makes them a liability rather than an asset, If you have to invest 600 points in 2 just to make one work :P

 

Did your Eldar buddy whiff his rolls or did he consistently manage to cripple or kill one Raven a turn ?

 

Obviously, I'm aware about the chances to seize :P Even in that scenario, other units have the ability to take advantage of most terrain features for cover, or unique deployment options to not get shot at at all.

 

In terms of threat priority, give me examples of something that would draw fire away from a Stormraven turn 1 when you're going second that isn't:

- Another Stormraven

- A Land Raider

- Stormtalons (because any opponent with half a brain will shoot the Raven)

- Imperial Knights

 

The list that is likely to show up is other fire support/dakka units because they're the most immédiate threat, in which case we can say that the Stormraven really is a secondary fire platform due to its reliance on other immédiately scary stuff, and can't be a central part of the list.

 

Problem is : it's more powerful and threatening than it is survivable. So to make the army work despite having stormravens you need something equally or more threatening early on, and probably more survivable to make It work.

 

Considering Rhinos are almost as survivable for a fraction of the point cost, it's really hard to justify Stormravens these days

Edited June 11, 2017 by GreyCrow

[Race Bannon]

On paper I disagree. Rhinos cannot transport a Dreadnought, nor are as fast or can carry the same weapons. That is what you are paying for.

 

Transports are meant to do that job, not necessarily survive afterward. That is a bonus.

[GreyCrow]

On paper I disagree. Rhinos cannot transport a Dreadnought, nor are as fast or can carry the same weapons. That is what you are paying for.

 

Transports are meant to do that job, not necessarily survive afterward. That is a bonus.

 

But the Raven is not just a transport. It's paying points for being a gunship as well, and quite a fair bit of them actually.

 

Look at the Vendetta for comparison. Same statline and capacity (save for Dreadnoughts) but worse BS and no POTMS for 130 points and the extra Grav Chute rule (we have lost Skies of Fury as well). That's a big points drop versus the 172 base of the Raven :)

 

The low survivability is just its kicker for the points cost. I agree that it was severely undercosted in 7th edition, but it did benefit from the ability to not get shot at by having to start in reserves. Now, we have a bigger model who can't take advantage of cover or LOS blockage like a Land Raider can, being roughly costing the same (on the lower end), just relying on a single -1 to hit for survivability.

[templargdt]

In the DFTS rules in the back of the book, there is a 1CP stratagem that allows you to reroll all failed saves in a phase.  Have people been using this to increase their survival?  

[Race Bannon]

I have not played a game, so my opinion is based on what I do know minus experience (in 8th). That will likely mitigate my posts in this thread :lol:

 

The stratagem is situational and only in a specific setting. Overall though, I will insist to agree to disagree with GreyCrow ^_^

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stormraven > Vendetta. Called it! By the rules of the Internet, I win.

[GreyCrow]

Haven't, nope. My flier was targeted by ground forces while this specifically takes into account the dogfight phase :)

 

Don't get me wrong, the opponent was fielding 2 GK Venerable Dreadnoughts with Dual Autocannons, which is a pretty beasty anti-light vehicle unit on its own. The 2+ just ensures that the fliers get hit on 3+ thanks to hard to hit.

 

I should have statistically taken only 5-6 wounds (2 dmg per wound on ACs) from that volley but ended up taking double. Which is totally okay, and I get why SyNidus and Nusq are more elogious toward the steel bird than I am.

 

What I wanted to illustrate was that because of the high variance that is possible now due to a higher number of shots overall, and the Stormraven being one of the most expensive models in our arsenal, it's always a risky proposition to bring one.

 

Even more than v7 and even more if you're using it to ferry nasty units which will make it even bigger of a target.

 

___

 

Synidus has got good points though. I'm trolling the hell out of him because I want to ensure all scenarios are covered, but he has good cases.

 

We need a web of threats that are almost as scary as the Raven itself, which means :

- Reach / Long range

- High damage

 

Probably in cheap units of infantry. I guess that we'll have to have even more infantry than we used to :P

[GreyCrow]

Race, then I will enjoy tasting your tears when your dear Stormraven gets blasted off the sky turn 1 and there is nothing you can do about it ! 

 

For reference : I told you so!

 

:P

[templargdt]

I haven't read the unit entry, but could a Skyshield help out with the Raven?  

[GreyCrow]

I haven't read the unit entry, but could a Skyshield help out with the Raven?  

 

Haven't read either. This is a good train of thought, although this is making the Raven's survivability more and more conditional :/

[Nusquam]

Every transport is vulnerable. Nothing is truly safe against lascannons and the like. But the Raven has significant advantages over other transports:

 

It can be assaulted except by other flying units.

 

It can move up to 50" . So it needs one turn and can start far away from enemy fire. You can start it as far back as you eant. and even if it dies in the enemy deployment zone its done its job. Then if the whole enemy army shoots it down thats more than its points and the rest of your army isnt being shot.

 

-1 to hit. Vs ground transports that would be hit on full BS.

 

Doesnt have to leave airborne to disembark.

 

Give it one escort craft, start them far away, zoom far up and alpha their biggest threat, disembark, and profit. Its not perfect but its good.

[GreyCrow]

All in all, I'm not criticizing your approach. It makes perfect sense.

 

Having tested this against lists with strong AT volume of fire, it won't last very long.

 

It's okay if the lists are meant for stuff to die and if you don't mind losing it. I'm just not a fan of 'strategy' games where you bring stuff just so that they can die. 

 

That's probably just me, but I really take no pleasure in watching my minis die Always was more a fan of beating the enemy in a 1-2 punch while taking absolutely minimal losses.

 

This was more possible in v6 & v7. It's not in v8, where it's a happy killfest for both sides. Not my jam :P

Edited June 11, 2017 by GreyCrow

[Claws and Effect]

Things are going to die. Might as well accept it.

 

If you dismiss options because they'll get killed, you're going to have an empty table. And an empty table is no fun.

[GreyCrow]

Things are going to die. Might as well accept it.

 

If you dismiss options because they'll get killed, you're going to have an empty table. And an empty table is no fun.

 

Fun is boring, I don't want my opponent to spend a good time, I want to win without giving him any chance of beating me :P

[Nusquam]

Things are going to die. Might as well accept it.

 

If you dismiss options because they'll get killed, you're going to have an empty table. And an empty table is no fun.

 

Also this^

 

Dedicated AT/AA is going to do serious damage against its intended target this edition. There's only mitigating it. Games are going to be higher points but more decisive. It could be any transport but still get blown out, it's just most can't move the crazy distance a flyer can. The inverse is also true; we can get the drop on the enemy AT/AA and blow them out. Placement, positioning, and movement are far more important now than raw numbers. Being able to place the Raven anywhere, including the farthest corner, and still charging turn 2 is a scary thing to face.

 

Also consider that it can combine 3 units into one to increase your chances of going first. You could have a bunch of tacs and three dreads across three Ravens and probably end up going first. Pick a weak point and overwhelm it, killing the immediate threats to them and then. Between what each unit can take they can face anything and be all but immune to most of you opponents army T1.

 

Here's a fast and dirty version:

 

Battalion Detachment 1967pts.

 

  Librarian (1) - 109pts

    1 Librarian: Force axe,Bolt pistol

 

  Librarian (1) - 109pts

    1 Librarian: Force axe,Bolt pistol

 

  Tactical Squad (5) - 128pts

    1 Sergeant: Combi-plasma,Thunder hammer

    3 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    1 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

  Tactical Squad (5) - 128pts

    1 Sergeant: Combi-plasma,Thunder hammer

    3 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    1 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

  Tactical Squad (5) - 128pts

    1 Sergeant: Combi-plasma,Thunder hammer

    3 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Boltgun

    1 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

  Dreadnought (1) - 133pts

    1 Dreadnought: Dreadnought close combat weapon with storm bolter,Assault cannon

 

  Dreadnought (1) - 133pts

    1 Dreadnought: Dreadnought close combat weapon with storm bolter,Assault cannon

 

  Dreadnought (1) - 133pts

    1 Dreadnought: Dreadnought close combat weapon with storm bolter,Assault cannon

 

Air Wing Detachment

 

  Stormraven Gunship (1) - 322pts

    1 Stormraven Gunship: Twin lascannon,Typhoon missile launcher,2 Stormstrike missile launchers,Two hurricane bolter

 

  Stormraven Gunship (1) - 322pts

    1 Stormraven Gunship: Twin lascannon,Typhoon missile launcher,2 Stormstrike missile launchers,Two hurricane bolter

 

  Stormraven Gunship (1) - 322pts

    1 Stormraven Gunship: Twin lascannon,Typhoon missile launcher,2 Stormstrike missile launchers,Two hurricane bolter

 

 

Place three models, go first, move up to 50, alpha like crazy, turn two disembark and alpha again. You have full coverage in weapons for shooting and melee. There's even wiggle room in the points to deck out the dreads to be whatever you want. In maelstrom you can be anywhere you want and be able to kill just about anything as well. You avoid all but their fastest/longest range shooting. Time will tell if a list like that will end up being quality or not. But it does take advantage of a lot of game mechanics in your favor.

[GreyCrow]

Jokes aside about winning, I totally get your point, but that echoes what I said before : One Stormraven is just not enough to tank. Redundancy as in spamming is going to be even more key.

For an expensive unit (both points wise and cash wise), it's not interesting. Land Raiders are actually more survivable now due to their statline AND cover (try to hide a Stormraven or even outrange the dedicated AT/AA, which is 48" for dirt cheap).

I just don't want to have to pay for a 2nd Stormraven to make a single one worth its points because the opponent will have decided to shoot the other one.

 

What I meant to say by giving no chance to win is exagerated, but that's also why I chose the Raven Guard. Fast, decisive action from a position of strength. They use infiltration and blitz attacks to minimize casualties and minimize impact.

 

Now, the fliers are not part of this anymore. It's more conventional Astartes tactics saying : please, let me politely deploy here in plain sight, and I'll be a gentle bloke and let your weapons get a round of shooting before I get to play with this magnificient beast of a flier.

It wouldn't be as bad if you could place the Stormravens in reserve and fly on the board. Obivously, they want to limit null deployment and Alpha Strike with high strength weapons, but making a single Stormraven a weak sitting duck in the air is not necessarily the best approach for that.

 

I guess I'm mainly bitter that the playstyle of the Raven Guard has been seriously hampered versus what it was in Angels of Death. I get it that we're in an intermediary edition and we might eventually get some rules, but right now this is completely negating part of what made the game fit the actual fluff of the Chapter for me.

[Nusquam]

Vehicles only get cover when obscured in optional rules. If we're talking core rules then cover for vehicles with large bases isn't going to happen often. And if we're being granular then one of anything could be shot off as well. Land Raiders are beefy, but they move slow. Getting in deep is going to be a process and they're going to draw a lot of fire, including things like assault cannons and other quality 24-36" fire power. Then they may even face melta guns. Also which is going to have 2-3 turns of getting shot as opposed to exactly one. I'd rather take my chances in a Raven which will be out of range of all but the 48"+ weapons for one turn and get exactly where it needs to be.

[Claws and Effect]

So flyers can't be put in reserve AT ALL now?

[Nusquam]

Right. There are no reserves now. Only some units that have a sepcial rule that allows them to have a midgame deployment. Like Shrike for example.

[Nusquam]

Had another game. 80 power level.

 

I had shrike

 

5 vets on bikes all with SS. Two hammers a fist and two plasmaguns.

 

Apoth on bike

 

A talon, hawk, and rave

 

Contemptor

 

Two 5man tacs with a LC

 

Vs

 

3 maxed out tac squads in 3 pods

 

Tech on bike with beamer

 

Tech

 

Two pred annihilators

 

I got to choose deployment and picked hammer and anvil and even got to sieze. When i moved i made sure to spread out to limit the pods entry.

 

The mode was no mercy. Its lucky i seized because two pred annihilators are scary.

 

I'm also disliking the talon more and more. Being T6 really opens them up to auto and assault cannons.

 

But hawks are in that nice T7 spot. They cant hover but the increased toughness is worth it.

 

Loving Ravens more. I put the contemptor in it and got it in the center of my opponents deployment zone to charge turn 2.

 

We called it in favor of me because it was late. But i did learn a lot about denying pod entry. The have a huge footprint because of their contents and that limits placement.

[GreyCrow]

Haha it's really fun, I've had 0 problems with Stormtalons in the previous game (where the Raven got mauled) and actually found them decently survivable :P

 

The Twin Assault Canon is a blessing.

 

Our diverging experiences are interesting, it seems that we're identifying 2 kind of player profiles :

- The guys who tried to go for the big stuff first

- The guys who try to dismantle the weaker bits of the list, or grab the easy pickings

 

I guess that having 2 types of threats available for this list and being able to survive regardless of what the opponent is going to priviledge is an interesting approach to matched play :p

[Nusquam]

Here's what I'm taking tomorrow for when we try out 2kMatched Play/Maelstrom:

 

Raven Guard - 2000pts.

Vanguard Detachment

  Kayvan Shrike (1) - 150pts
    1 Kayvan Shrike: Raven's Talons,Bolt pistol

  Company Veterans on Bikes (5) - 267pts
    1 Veteran Sergeant: Thunder hammer,Combi-plasma,Twin boltgun
    2 Veteran: Storm shield,Power sword,Twin boltgun
    2 Veteran: Power sword,Plasma gun,Twin boltgun

  Apothecary on Bike (1) - 82pts
    1 Apothecary: Chainsword,Bolt pistol,Twin boltgun

  Sternguard Veteran Squad (10) - 226pts
    1 Veteran Sergeant: Special issue boltgun,Power sword
    2 Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol,Plasma gun
    1 Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol,Combi-plasma
    6 Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol,Special issue boltgun

  Apothecary (1) - 55pts
    1 Apothecary: Chainsword,Bolt pistol

  Contemptor Dreadnought (1) - 165pts
    1 Contemptor Dreadnought: Dreadnought close combat weapon,Kheres pattern assault cannon,Combi-bolter

  Vanguard Veteran Squad (10) - 360pts
    1 Veteran Sergeant: 2 Lightning claws,Jump Pack
    9 Space Marine Veteran: 2 Lightning claws,Jump Pack

  Assault Squad (10) - 205pts
    1 Space Marine Sergeant: Power fist,Plasma Pistol,Combat shield,Jump Pack
    2 Space Marine: Plasma Pistol,Jump Pack
    7 Space Marine: Bolt pistol,Chainsword,Jump Pack

  Stormraven Gunship (1) - 289pts
    1 Stormraven Gunship: Twin lascannon,Twin heavy bolter,2 Stormstrike missile launchers,Two hurricane bolter

  Stormhawk Interceptor (1) - 191pts
    1 Stormhawk Interceptor: Skyhammer missile launcher,Two assault cannons,Las-talon

 

I have 10 points to spare.

 

Stern and Contempt go in the Raven. AM screen the VVs. Bikers go where needed with Apoth. The general idea is high mobility hitting power. Shrike is in reserve until he comes down where he's needed.

[Race Bannon]

Twin Boltgun

 

*rushes off to look that up*

 

A Stormbolter?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Race Bannon
Awesome research

[SyNidus]

Looks good Nus.

 

I think the high mobility infantry will be important for taking and holding the objectives. The only thing is that since they are short-ranged, i'd suggest deploying the objectives close together and in the centre. That way eventhough you're advancing, you're still capturing objectives. Keep em close together so you're never far from capturing.

 

As for the stormraven, that's an interesting load out, i'm curious to hear how it does.

Edited June 15, 2017 by SyNidus

[Nusquam]

Twin Boltgun

 

*rushes off to look that up*

 Yeah bikers get a whole lotta dakka. The can shoot double bolters and whatever theyre carrying. Vet bikers are so much better now and not just for that reason.

 

 

Looks good Nus.

 

I think the high mobility infantry will be important for taking and holding the objectives. The only thing is that since they are short-ranged, i'd suggest deploying the objectives close together and in the centre. That way eventhough you're advancing, you're still capturing objectives. Keep em close together so you're never far from capturing.

 

As for the stormraven, that's an interesting load out, i'm curious to hear how it does.

We're not going for super cut throat just quality. Plus the hurricane bolter is 4 points for one. It's a steal. Plus unlimited Stormstrikes. This loadout hits all targets thanks to PotMS and native split fire.

 

The game is in about 5 hours. I'll post results.