BitsHammer Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 With vehicles becomeing more expensive it feels like the game will be pushing away from full mech armies to hybrid and foot armies instead. And with the decrease in cost of the humble Initiate dropping for their base wargear (13ppm) and the very solid rules we're seeing from our characters it feels like the Black Tide has a place on the table again. With most units dropping their number of attacks but Templars being able to take Chainswords enmasse and bolster their attacks with rerolls to pour on the pain, I really feel like it's a viable list. That said, I am always up for hearing other people's opinions and wish to know what other people feel of the most iconic of Templar lists in the new edition. With vehicles becomeing more expensive it feels like the game will be pushing away from full mech armies to hybrid and foot armies instead. And with the decrease in cost of the humble Initiate dropping for their base wargear (13ppm) and the very solid rules we're seeing from our characters it feels like the Black Tide has a place on the table again. With most units dropping their number of attacks but Templars being able to take Chainswords enmasse and bolster their attacks with rerolls to pour on the pain, I really feel like it's a viable list. That said, I am always up for hearing other people's opinions and wish to know what other people feel of the most iconic of Templar lists in the new edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wolfhart Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 It remains to be seen if vehicles are tougher than before or not. Also how the points balance out heavy weapons. I think it's possible that vehicles are far less powerful than what those numbers suggest. A lucky lascanon shot can after all do 6 damage. My approach will be a solid number of infantry with a few support vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 It remains to be seen if vehicles are tougher than before or not. Also how the points balance out heavy weapons. I think it's possible that vehicles are far less powerful than what those numbers suggest. A lucky lascanon shot can after all do 6 damage. My approach will be a solid number of infantry with a few support vehicles. Hybrid lists do seem to be a way forward if only to prevent from putting all your points into still relatively fragile transports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewChristlieb Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Yeah I'm going to be sticking to Landraiders and Bodies. Maybe a couple flyers. Pretty much what I've always done. Is it just me or is there no premium to upgrade an Initiate to a SB now though? I can't find a cost for the upgrade in the pricing section or the squad rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 Yeah I'm going to be sticking to Landraiders and Bodies. Maybe a couple flyers. Pretty much what I've always done. Is it just me or is there no premium to upgrade an Initiate to a SB now though? I can't find a cost for the upgrade in the pricing section or the squad rules. I can't quickly flip through my pdf copies on my tablet without it crashing so I have to ask: does he Sword Brethen have a points cost in the points index? If so, then you'd pay his cost to put him in the unit instead of the 13ppm that an Initiate costs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewChristlieb Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Nope, now Sword Brother listed that i can find. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Can't find one either, seems he's free :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Replaces an initiate tho. No extra charge. Kewl Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewChristlieb Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Man I hope it's not a typo. I always hated that Tacs got a free Sergeant and we had to pay. Doesn't look like a tac sergeant is any different in cost either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 Man I hope it's not a typo. I always hated that Tacs got a free Sergeant and we had to pay. Doesn't look like a tac sergeant is any different in cost either. The unit cost more base than the cost of upgrading extra Tacticals to compensate, unless they had a codex that stopped in. I'll be honest, I stopped paying attention to their upgrade list around 5th edition (and only reason I was looking at it then was due to considering running Imperial Fists). I do recall they had to pay extra for Veteran Sergeants which where an actual upgrade over the generic sergeant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewChristlieb Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Yeah the cost for a SB was the same as a vet Sergeant, but we never had a base Sergeant so if you wanted a second power weapon or a combi ect you had to pay an extra 2Mb over what a tactical squad did (since the vet was optional). What this really boils down to is that basic 5 man las/plas (or you know whatever else you want) just got better with a cheap way to add another special weapon. All in all a nice bonus for Blacktide in particular or even mech lists since you don't have to waste more elite/heavy spots with dedicated special/heavy weapon teams. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wolfhart Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Now that i come to think of it, i'll have to convert more swordbrethren with combiweapons. I always liked sternguard SBs, now they're even good in LasPlas squads. LIke having a second spcial weapon. Mhmmmmmm. Also a fist isn't auto include anymore with combis, as powerweapons don't actually get extra attacks off of pistols. So much to think about, so much to tinker with... i love it :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 A lot of models can't double down on melee and ranged so double check the options (they do it by having you only trade your bolter for an upgrade option and pistols only swapping for pistols). So Superiors (for example) can't combis and power mauls at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4766496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Is it just me or are Techmarines absurdly good for their price? 2 attacks with Servo-Arms that do 3 wounds each, 2+ armour, 4 wounds and some cool shooting stuff for a quite cheap package. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4767932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Is it just me or are Techmarines absurdly good for their price? 2 attacks with Servo-Arms that do 3 wounds each, 2+ armour, 4 wounds and some cool shooting stuff for a quite cheap package. They oretty much have always been surprisingly cheap for what they bring, but largely overlooked due to the other stuff in their FOC slot that they compete with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4767955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Also, Dreadnoughts take weapons from the "Dreadnought heavy weapons list". Where is that list, exactly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Also, Dreadnoughts take weapons from the "Dreadnought heavy weapons list". Where is that list, exactly? Page 11 of the Imperium 1 book(page 1, right hand side of the scan pdf everyone has been looking at) in the last part of the rightmost column. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendo Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I don't get why Crusaders in LRC wouldn't be doable in 8th? A Crusade squad will cost about the same with an Initiate costing 13pt (-1) and Neophyte 11pt (+1), the LRC it's slightly cheaper and seems way tougher. With everything having more wounds this time around except the marines i'd rather have them in a box and dish out the extra punishment in Combat. It also seems doable to have Grim+retinue in a rhino to follow up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 I don't get why Crusaders in LRC wouldn't be doable in 8th? A Crusade squad will cost about the same with an Initiate costing 13pt (-1) and Neophyte 11pt (+1), the LRC it's slightly cheaper and seems way tougher. With everything having more wounds this time around except the marines i'd rather have them in a box and dish out the extra punishment in Combat. It also seems doable to have Grim+retinue in a rhino to follow up. LRC is 244 plus the cost of it's Wargear (35 for the Twin Assault Cannon and 4 per Hurricane Bolter) for a total of 287 base before putting any other options on it. I'd have to check, but is that really cheaper? Biggest thing against the LRC though is that it's not a DT for anyone. So you lose a HS for each one you take. And with the change to how vehicles work, you may not even need it since you can Disembark 3" from a Rhino, then move 6", and then shoot and charge like normal. I'm not saying it's not handy if you want a squad of 16, but there are definite cons against taking them right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 So interesting note: someone on Dakka pointed out that the new tank might be based on the old RT era Grav Tank model, aka the "Deoderant Tank": Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendo Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I don't get why Crusaders in LRC wouldn't be doable in 8th? A Crusade squad will cost about the same with an Initiate costing 13pt (-1) and Neophyte 11pt (+1), the LRC it's slightly cheaper and seems way tougher. With everything having more wounds this time around except the marines i'd rather have them in a box and dish out the extra punishment in Combat. It also seems doable to have Grim+retinue in a rhino to follow up. LRC is 244 plus the cost of it's Wargear (35 for the Twin Assault Cannon and 4 per Hurricane Bolter) for a total of 287 base before putting any other options on it. I'd have to check, but is that really cheaper? Biggest thing against the LRC though is that it's not a DT for anyone. So you lose a HS for each one you take. And with the change to how vehicles work, you may not even need it since you can Disembark 3" from a Rhino, then move 6", and then shoot and charge like normal. I'm not saying it's not handy if you want a squad of 16, but there are definite cons against taking them right now. Thanks for the clarification brother, Didn't know the wargear was extra, yea not great...and IC would need their expensive transport to keep up with the assault. Maybe a LRC with 2 Rhinos and a Chaplain to jump in? I like the black tide idea but will we still get shot off the table? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Hard to tell how much shooting will hurt running the tide. I'm running an all foot list of Fists tomorrow to get a feel of the new edition, so I'll learn the best way: through experiance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I just wrote up a 2k list and you're able to get all 3 special characters, an LRC and two 20-man blobs with some points to spare for something like Dreadnoughts or smaller squads in Lazorbacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 How many LRCs can you fit with two 20 blobs, the big 3, and an Apothecary? I want them to draw fire and if they make it, used as battering rams. It's not fancy or diverse but man that is brute force at its finest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I think people are forgetting that while yes you can now use rhino's to advance the assault for cheaper, the LRC's brings a veritable torrent of fire now. I did some math in the other list but it's now throwing out well over double the amount of shots previously when in rapid fire range and because you now don't have to worry about snap shots the number of MEQ deaths per round of shooting to over double what it was previously(up to 5.3 now). That's a lot of firepower on a very durable platform. Not to mention the frag assault launchers :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334140-8th-edition-and-a-fist-full-of-zeal/#findComment-4768751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.