8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[Firepower]

Yeah, finally the LRC isn't just an expensive limo. It's an expensive limo with teeth

[Stemplar]

I'm a noob trying to get my head around it all. New restrictions look like it's gonna be chainswords and more chainswords... power axes etc only for one initiate per squad?? Our upgrade sprues might need an upgrade. Am I missing something important? Help from more battle hardened brothers Please?

 

Also ... I love that my Stormraven doesn't have to sit around waiting for me to roll a 3! Made it impossible to play. All those points sitting idle.

 

I can't wait to stick dreadnoughts in to drop pods and make it rain!

[Acebaur]

You've only ever been able to take one initiate with a power weapon. I think honestly that mixed squads are going to be useful this edition now that you can rapid fire and still charge.

 

Dreadnoughts can't go in drop pods anymore sadly :(

 

The stormraven is an absolute beast now, and hurricane bolters are so cheap there's no reason not to include them lol. Also stormstrike missiles are no longer single use!

[BitsHammer]

After getting some play time in (thanks to my FLGS's copy of the new edition's rules) and watching other armies I feel like I may have an idea of where to go finally and felt like doing a write up to share with everyone else here.

 

The Crusader Squad and 8th Edition

While I have always been a large fan of the look of a horde of bodies running at their foes with little more than bolt pistol, chainsword and enough zeal to teach the meaning of fear and regret to anyone they face, times have changes, and so has the way we run Templars. Long dead are the all foot lists of Yore, and in their wake came MSU squads of guns and a strange shooty build of Templar that many felt uncomfortable with.

 

Strangely enough, I have to say that both may be the answer going forward. No, not alone as seperate squads or lists, but together in a single unit. And he reason why comes from the core rules themselves:

 

There is no weapon that a Crusader Squad can take that we can't charge in afterwards and beat someone to death with.

 

This understanding today has actually lead me to consider a more...schitzophrenic approach to Crusader Squads. One where the unit takes a special and heavy weapon (or melee weapon option if you don't like shooting someone with a heavy bolter and then beating the dead man's friends to death with it), and largely fills out the rest with bolt pistols and chainswords. The exception I feel should be on the Neophytes. Since Rapid Fire no longer prevents charging, giving them a couple of Bolters is not a horrible idea, mostly as they can help plink off a couple extra models before the charge to allow our Crusader Squads inflict as much damage as possible each turn. And if you lose some models, then taking them off first isn't a real problem as you'll be in charge range (or potentially charging If Overwatch killed anyone first) and not need the extra range to potentially whittle down a unit. 

 

That said, the shotgun might be worth consideration if you olay in a meta with a large amount of T5 and/or T8-9 as the difference between wounding on 4s (compared to 5s) for the latter at half range, and 5s for the latter (compared to 6s) could help make a tougher to kill model (Gravis Armour models, big bugs, some tanks) a little easier. 

 

Personal preference and local metas will largely impact how people load out their models for the new edition, but as Neophytes are only worse on their save, when it comes to shooting and melee, kitting them out as barebones duelist models will go a fair distance towards keeping our melee potential as high as it can, without locking the unit into only a short range unit that people will skirt around while plinking outside of its max range,

 

Now Sword Brethren are basically an auto-include since they're currently free. Now while that may change in the future, load out for these guys will still be important now. With access to the Sergeant wargear list they have a fair number of toys but I want to talk about some personal recommendations:

 

Pistols should basically come down to Plasma or Grav. Grav works best in metas with a lot of vehicles, fortifications and power armour/terminator armour while Plasma works well just about everywhere now. Plus plasma pistols are eight points cheaper than they used to be, making a screaming deal for what they do now. Points will determine which is right for you, but when it comes to those little death dealers, the bolt pistol just doesn't hold up.

 

Alternatively combi-weapons are more viable than before and make for a strong way for you to bring the hurt. Play in an area with a lot of hordes and need extra flamers? Combi all day. Want a second melta, or plasma gun? Hello combi. Need grav but want extra bolter shots for weaker save models? Combi it is. Basically this is how you fit two special weapons into your Crusader Squads, and with the change to pistols and melee attacks, you're not losing melee damage as much as an additional shooting attack if you're locked in. Pistols will be cheaper for pretty much all your options, but needs and preferences will be key here. Don't be afraid of spending a few more points for something since nothing we take can keep us from charging, and will only improve our overall abilites.

 

Now melee weapons are always a big question. Swords are basically as cheap as chips, have -3 AP and do 1 damage. They don't increase the model's strength though and while they can force more wounds, they do only 1 wound at a time (a problem shared by all basic melee weapons). Axes make us stronger by +1, but drop to -2 AP meaning a few more saves will slip through. Maces give us the best strength buff at +2 while dropping to a -1 AP.

 

Basically, what do you play against the most in the game? Choose your options based that, or consider that there are other options:

 

Lighting Claws are Power Swords that re-roll wounds and give an extra attack in melee when paired. Not bad, but peraps we need to look at somthing with more oomph. Like the Power Fist. At double strength, -3 AP and D3 in exchange of a -1 to hit damage the classic fist has finally seen some love. Quite the option when paired with the synergy of a Captain Marshal, Helbreatch or Grimaldus where the rerolls can push the odds more ink your favor.

 

But what if you expect to fight a lot of big things and need to do more consistent damage when you deal wounds? Look no further than the Thunder Hammer. Available to a Sword Brother via the Sergeant Wargear for only a couple points more than a Power Fist this weapon is everything a Power Fist is, but at 3 Damage. This means that the humble Sword Brethren is capable of dealing out up to 6 wounds a turn more consistently than the Power Fist. Frankly this is my go to choice for a unit option if I have the points. Horus Heresy style hammers are just icing on the cake in my book as well.

 

Now, with a fully loaded squad* the question of how to field them comes to mind. Let me help make that answer clear: put them in a transport. MSUs love the extra firepower support of a Razorback, and larger squads can take a budget Rhino, or the Death Blossom powered Land Raider Crusader (now only in Heavy Support slot versions until further notice). 

 

The Rhino is definitely the best option for a Crusader Squad on a tight budget. Depending squad size the vehicle can house your Characters for extra protection, or act as a mobile shield to keep them from being as easy to target. While the firepower they bring isn't brag worthy, with them now moving 12" until they lost half of their wounds makes them better at ferrying things across the board, the key to usage of the Rhino is saturation: the more ou have, the higher your results are that things will get across the board. As a budget option to the Razorback, MSU Crusader squads can double up per transport, decreasing the number of units you place at deployment (as a transport plus transported units is a single placement), while also cutting down how many tanks you need to own to get your army moving.

 

For those who favor quality over quantity and want a tank that can beat up other tanks the LRC is the only real way to go. With Hurrican Bolters being Rapid Fire 6 each, the LRC is a proverbial death blossom on the table, even before adding in the Assault Cannon or the Multi-Melta.

 

Bascially if you don't want to build Rhinos or want to run the Black Templar version of a pimpmobile, take an LRC. In larger games, take two. Don,t expect to take too many since each on is a Scrooge McDuck's moneybin sized pile of points, but expect great things from them, or your opponent to point enough lascannons at it turn one to leave scorch marks on the table.

 

Now to support the Crusader squad we have characters, and while Helbretch and his reroll all misses is great (as is his bonus to strength on the charge) and Grimaldus helping much the same, generic Marshals and Castellans (aka Primaris LTs) will definitely have a place in your army at lower points levels. While they don't reroll all hits, generate extra attacks or give you a strength bonus,  they still support an army nicely thanks to rules like Rites of Battle.

 

Chaplains are your other source of synergy, and while the generic ones lack Grimaldus' level of zeal, they still do a fair job supporting your unit.

 

In fact, the only one who doesn't buff our Crusaders is the Emperor,s Champion. Though since he is to be aimed at the keyword monster and/or character models you want dead, then his lack of synergy isn't important.

 

tl;dr: 1. Crusader squads basically look to be best run with a mix of melee and ranged options to better capitalize on doing as many casualties a turn and prevent enemy units from escaping unscathed from our threat bubbles. 

 

2. Vehicles are important for protecting your guys but you can share so MSUs can mitigate the investment.

 

3. Synergy from characters is not only awesome, but manditory to making the army run well. And while the named characters bring it the best, the generic choices aren't bad choices either.

 

*Results may vary. See your nearest Crusade for details.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I thought that they haven't removed the age old rule of not being able to Assault when you fired a Heavy or Rapid Fire weapon... only removed the restriction of firing Heavy Weapons and rapid fire after moving... did they change the rules on that?

 

Also, Drop Pods... because I'm going to see a lot of Leman Russ and Predators in my area, and I don't care how many points Meltaguns or Combi-Meltas are... I'm taking Multiples of them...

[BitsHammer]

I thought that they haven't removed the age old rule of not being able to Assault when you fired a Heavy or Rapid Fire weapon... only removed the restriction of firing Heavy Weapons and rapid fire after moving... did they change the rules on that?

 

Also, Drop Pods... because I'm going to see a lot of Leman Russ and Predators in my area, and I don't care how many points Meltaguns or Combi-Meltas are... I'm taking Multiples of them...

There are no restrictions for firing weapons and assaulting that I've found. If I missed something then please share it so I can correct myself.

 

Drop Pods are definitely useful, but running over a hundred points makes me look elsewhere for transport options, at least in small games.

[Kilamandaros]

You've only ever been able to take one initiate with a power weapon. I think honestly that mixed squads are going to be useful this edition now that you can rapid fire and still charge.

Dreadnoughts can't go in drop pods anymore sadly

The stormraven is an absolute beast now, and hurricane bolters are so cheap there's no reason not to include them lol. Also stormstrike missiles are no longer single use!

Forgeworld Lucius drop pods my friend :) they don't have the actual model for sale any more but I just use a regular pod with no seats/weapons inside. In 7th they also gave cover for a turn so hoping for the same.

[gang_chong]

I played two games in 8th edition against Nids and Tau yesterday, and here's my impression.

 

1. Crusader squad

- Now we (and everyone else to be exact) lost sheer number of attack, almost like 1/3 in number, so I think Crusader squad is far weaker in close combat than before.

You can take power weapon for initiatives 4 pts each, surprisingly cheaper, but only one attack with power weapon is just meh. I'd rather take a lascannon or grav-cannon instead of power weaponry to get harder punch. Still, you can charge after you shot with those heavy weapons after all, and opponents won't be happy to see we shoot heavy weapons back when they falls back.

 

I don't like this idea for fluffy reason, but you can field more neophytes than initiates. 10 neophytes with bolter or shotgun is cheap, but nothing to sneeze at. Shotguns got better, now it's S5 when in 6".

 

If I feel like to make melee focused squad, then I will go for initiate with power fist and sword bro with thunder hammer combo.

 

2. Melee oriented units.

- I've always used to field a death star comprising either EC or Helbrecht, and enough number of Honour guards or TH/SS termies. Well, termies got so expensive, but with W2 and ability to charge after deep strike without mishap. Sounds awesome, but you should roll at least 8" or longer charge distance. Also you only can use Stratagems once per phase, so if you are going to throw terminator chaplain with Ass-termies altogether, you can only re-roll single dice for charge distance either for chaplain or termies. I actually failed to charge with freshly deep-strikes termies yesterday and the result was awful. I will crumble about Honour guard later on, but I think Vanguard vets with jump pack would be solid option, since they can charge on flyers ;)

 

3. Characters

 

- Chaplain is classic force multiplier as always, but IMHO now is time for apothecaries. They can revive slained W1 models on 4+, or they can heals d3 wounds for multi wound model automatically.

I'm very sad I can't field my honour guards in Templar Brethren model as many as I did before, but along with apothecary, they can soak up pretty much wounds towards Helbrecht, our true combat monster and auto-include-worthy character. Although GW limited maximum model of Honour guard with 2 models, but hey, you can then bring 2 or 3 units of HG, because Vanguard Detachment is for the heavy Elite slot list.

 

4. Vehicles

- Twin assault cannon is absolute beauty now, with 35 pts you can dish out 12 shots of S6 AP-1. That's huge. No need to speak of LRC, but also Razorback with Twin assault cannon is also point efficient option.

 

Well, I lost two games yesterday afterall, and I'm still grumbling about the number of attacks are seriously nurfed, but still I'm happy with the changes. I think there are plenty more things to try.

[Lysere]

Grimaldus can help with the number of attacks. I used him a lot in the past but with his new rule I'll probably use him even more than before.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

That actually sucks in regards to Power Weapons and Crusader Squads, but I ain't ripping arms off of my Crusaders yet... I'll try to make the most out of them and it's rather disappointing that Heavy Weapons can Assault even after shooting as now even Guard Heavy Weapons team can do it too... unpack Heavy Weapons set your sights on the enemy, then repack and assault all in a matter of seconds... yeah no...

 

I'm not sure how many points in comparison Heavy Weapons are against Power Weapons, but I hope that the gap is severely huge... as Power Weapons should remain as a key weapon for melee... and not Heavy Bolters which you can shoot into combat...

[BitsHammer]

You can't shoot into melee, unless you're using pistols on a unit you're engaged with during your shooting phase.

 

Frankly Marines are the kind of guys who should be lugging around big guns and shooting people with them before beating those people's friends to death with them. It also allos us to bring more punch to the table as to force Battleshock on enemy units you really need to be putting the hurt out in both the shooting and assault phases during a turn, not just one or the other. Basically this is the edition of the mixed Crusader Squad: a little shooty, a little punch and a bunch of bodies.

[BitsHammer]

Before I forget, Guard have radically changed the new edition to running in small units unless you run blobs of Conscripts. So no more units of thirty guys to tie us up in melee. This means that heavy weapons will be less protected than they were before, making them less likely to try and charge to engage us.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

You can't shoot into melee, unless you're using pistols on a unit you're engaged with during your shooting phase.

 

Frankly Marines are the kind of guys who should be lugging around big guns and shooting people with them before beating those people's friends to death with them. It also allos us to bring more punch to the table as to force Battleshock on enemy units you really need to be putting the hurt out in both the shooting and assault phases during a turn, not just one or the other. Basically this is the edition of the mixed Crusader Squad: a little shooty, a little punch and a bunch of bodies.

 

Yeah, but the lack of Swords, Axes and Mauls over the use of Heavy Bolters, Multi-Melta and other sorts of guns just reeks of Tactical Marines over Crusader Squads... or Primaris Marines in general once they get squads that have heavy weapons and what-not...

 

I mean, have you seen Black Templars art-works?

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/0Ihr42N.jpg

 

 

 

 

http://img.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/brother-brunar.jpg

 

 

http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/3/2055/thumb_620x2000/Love_is_a_battlefield...jpg

 

Power Weapons... Power Weapons everywhere... I guess the time of the traditional Templar is over as well... it's now time for Marshal Laeroth's rise...

 

as much to Firepower's chagrin...

 

welp boys, I'm sticking to modelling from now on... no point in playing a melee game, where the melee weapon of choice is the Lascannon...

[gang_chong]

Actually, I have some initiates with CCW, mundane swords, axes, small hammers from WHFB bits, count-as chainswords. Now technically it has different rules than chainswords, so I actually worried about if I should replace all those CCWs into chainsword bits. Well, I decided not to do that though ;)

 

I don't like the mixed setting personally. I mentioned the mixed setting because it is just useful for competitive game in this edition. I will try to use Grimaldus and melee setting crusader squad next time and will see.

[Kilamandaros]

The thing is crusader squads with chainswords only get 2 attacks each yes, however don't forget the bolt pistol shots on your turn, that's essentially another 0.5 attacks. Power swords do seem poor this edition, IMO they should have granted a second attack.

 

Personally I'm going to run a crusader squad or possibly 2 smaller squads in a LRC with Grimaldus and possibly an EC/Captain if I have the points. All with chainswords and the sword brother with power fist. I'll then coordinate the Deep Strike of my Assault Termies/Terminator-Chaplain and Lucius Drop Pod with Chaplain Dreadnought as the LRC reaches the enemy lines, hopefully turn 2. Gang chong I think your error was sending in the ATs turn 1 without support as you're right there is a huge risk of failing the charge and being left in the open.

 

As you can see from my composition I also think Chaplains are essential now with the reduced number of attacks we need to make sure we hit!

[Acebaur]

Some great analysis guys!

 

A couple of things. Thunder hammers are the same cost as PF so unless the unit doesn't have access to TH or is a character there's no reason to take a PF.

 

I'm not sure why folks think that our combat has gone down greatly, chainsword guys still get 2 attacks and when it's our turn you still get to fire your pistols in the shooting round. Plus with a chaplain nearby you now get to reroll attacks in every round like the old AAC rule.

 

Regarding all those power weapon Initiates we have now that might not be as useful we can still run them as veteran Initiates (aka sword brethren) ;)

[gang_chong]

Gang chong I think your error was sending in the ATs turn 1 without support as you're right there is a huge risk of failing the charge and being left in the open.

 

That's true. Actually I sent termies on turn 2, but my opponent spread out on the table well, so I couldn't point out good position to deep strike; 9" of denial zone is a thing, I think GW made it very clever.

[Acebaur]

Roujakis you are forgetting that yes those artworks have power swords, but power swords everywhere on initiates has never been in the fluff or rules. They are sparse. Anyway, taking a power weapon is still viable as they only cost a mere 4 points and with our increased chance to hit and a Chaplain you are looking at a 88% to hit

 

Edit: also forgot to mention that I think storm bolters are a great cheap option for extra dakka

[gang_chong]

Speaking of terminators, plain terminators or cataphractii can be viable option since they have storm bolters (up to 16 bolter shots within 12" range!) and decent power fists, or chain fists which is even better weapon.

 

Even though termies got W2 and AP system is changed, there are many multi-damage weapons these days, so invulnerable save is still very important. So I think terminator with 3++ is like gold, as they always were.

I think classic TH/SS termies in LRC might be better than charging after deep striking, ensuring the charge distance. This way, you can also get along them with apothecary or even Helbrecht for beefing up melee punch seriously.

[AlmightyWalrus]

How many LRCs can you fit with two 20 blobs, the big 3, and an Apothecary? I want them to draw fire and if they make it, used as battering rams. It's not fancy or diverse but man that is brute force at its finest.

 

2 easily, possibly 3 if you squeeze it a bit.

[BitsHammer]

I want to make it clear that I don,t hate the idea of melee centric builds, I just feel that without some kind of melee centric buff to the army (like extra attacks on the charge) Crusader Squads will preform more strongly with a mixed load out.

 

Remember, Templars take the right tool for the job. Only the fanatics that serve Khorne insist on using a blade when a gun is needed.

[Firepower]

The power weapon thing has me somewhat perturbed (that purple took ages to perfect!) but while they aren't useless, they are less useful. And now I gotta paint up some thunder hammer SB's as well, assuming I have some hammers floating around my bitz box somewhere. My lovely lovely mauls simply aren't the go-to choice and that is more than a touch irritating. They've gone from being the best choice to the economic choice, when you can't afford to field a bunch of hammers and fists.

There really does need to be greater emphasis put on characters in list building from now on. The force multiplication is pretty much mandatory. Helbrecht looks awesome as he should, but until point levels in games adapt to the new point levels on paper, Grim is more economic and still a great multiplier, just not as fierce himself.

But to steer back to the original point of this thread- Tide. Tide absolutely demands a big multiplier like Helbrecht or Grim. I'd recommend Grim first these days, because (surprisingly enough) of those Cenobytes. Near as I can tell, morale is a serious concern now, and the trio of slack jawed museum exhibits are a handy buffer against that.

But can Tide footslog like the glory days? Right now I don't see a reason to think so. Assault may be more balanced against shooting, but the issue is still one of mobility. Righteous Zeal made Tide viable because shooting Bob would send the whole squad hauling ass up the field. So we're left with the slightly watered down option of lots of boots in lots of trucks. Without Chapter Tactics that play on taking wounds, there's no significant reason to take a 20 man blob over a 10 man squad in a Rhino. While that will hopefully change down the road, right now it's the way of things.

Assaulting out of Pods is dandy, but like others have said, they're much more expensive now, and a clever opponent can deny a lot of ground with proper placement.

My eyes keep getting drawn back to the LRC with mixed emotion. The change to its sheer output of fire went from laughable to deadly, with a notable but relatively reasonable hike in price to match. They are more survivable now as well, allegedly. But can we really bet the farm on a list of 2 LRCs with 2 blobs inside, the mandatory character(s), and whatever we can fit into the list with them? It's a meatier approach than it used to be, but the point cost undercuts the notion of calling it "Tide" with the prohibitive pricing. And of course there's that whole non-DT status (hopefully just for now). In the same vein, Stormravens are ruthless gunships now as well, but with smaller transport capacity and their own ruthlessly expensive price. Still, those may be the only way to get a proper return on investing in Ironclads now

Remember, Templars take the right tool for the job. Only the fanatics that serve Khorne insist on using a blade when a gun is needed.

Templars take every tool along, and can be reluctantly talked into using the one that goes bang bang over the one that goes woosh splat

[BitsHammer]

Excellent points Firepower!

 

I think you summed up my own thoughts that have been rolling around since yesterday better than I could. Until we see some kind of CT love, Templars are definitely running a quasi-mech style to do anything. All foot lists just aren't cutting it for Marines at the moment, despite how appropiate the list style is for certain armies.

 

Well it looks like my first purchase after my EC and first two upgrade kits is an LRC.

[Acebaur]

One thing to keep in mind is that characters are a good bit cheaper these days and provide better and more buffs than before. 

 

Let's take a look at some common loadouts

 

Captain Marshal w/SS and TH

7th - 135 points

8th - 114 points

 

EC

7th - 140 points

8th - 108 points with better stats, and easily as good if not better rules. 

 

Chaplain bare bones 

7th - 90 points

8th - 72

 

Helbrecht

7th - 180 points

8th - 170 only a 10 point drop, but huge buffs to his stats and rules. 

 

Grimadlus and his museum exhibits

Grim 7th - 150

Grim 8th - 120 Also with much better rules

Cenos only 2 points each now and actually worth taking. 

 

Chaplain in TDA

7th - Why are you taking a chaplain in TDA?

8th - 115 points which includes an extra wound, better Litanies of HATE and charge after Teleport

[BitsHammer]

Indeed, our HQs got far better all around while not being broken. Most non-unique options have a single aura ability, while our named named ones tend to have two abilities, but are competetively priced with the generic ones.