8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[Firepower]

How much does a witch cost these days? Before it was a prime example of imbalance at 60 points compared to a 90 point chaplain, with way more effect on the table. Dropping the price and upping the bonuses of chaplains was long overdue.

 

I'm kicking myself more than ever for passing up a metal TDA chaplain on sale so many years back.

[Acebaur]

Witches run from 93 all the way up to 145 before wargear depending on what type of armor/movement assistance he defiles

I'm kicking myself more than ever for passing up a metal TDA chaplain on sale so many years back.

You mean like this one

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k48/Acebaur/Light%20Box%20Pictures/Terconnus%20front_zpso00cazso.jpg

[Lysere]

Witches run from 93 all the way up to 145 before wargear depending on what type of armor/movement assistance he defiles

I'm kicking myself more than ever for passing up a metal TDA chaplain on sale so many years back.

You mean like this one

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k48/Acebaur/Light%20Box%20Pictures/Terconnus%20front_zpso00cazso.jpg

I've had to swap out my power axe and storm bolter arm on mine several times as weapon options changed. At least now the storm bolter doesn't feel like a waste.

[Firepower]

Well after abandoning the Pods, I can get 43 Initiates/Neophytes, Grim and his crew, 3 Rhinos, 2 Vindis, an LRC (no MM), and 2 Hurricane Ironclads in a 2k list.  Comes with a total of 5 Hammers, 3 Power weapons, and 3 flamers among the regular stabby fellas.  And I have no idea if that's good or not now :teehee:

 

In 7th I would be lamenting the lack of long range anti armor pew pew.  Now...dunno.  I hate looking at the Ironclads and lamenting all the walking they have to do now, that's for certain. :P

 

I'm glad witches finally have to pay at least a somewhat appropriate price for their power.  Pre-immolation price, I mean.  

[Stemplar]

What a turkey!!! I've been reading it wrong. Our upgrade sprues come with power axes and swords and for some stupid reason I thought they counted as close combat weapons so have been putting them on all over the place!!

 

Do we still get Our BT chapter tactics?? Bonus attacks when one is shot etc?

[redmapa]

No chapter tactics for anyone, at least we got our characters to put some flavor!.

[Firepower]

Until a replacement for Tactics, Crusader Squads and Characters are our only defining traits

[Cap'm Heckus]

Played my first game tonight. 1000 or 3-way battle: my BT, nurgle marines (with Typhus), and Orks. Typhus and his crew hid at the far end of the table while the orks and I charged the one objective.

 

A 30 man ork mob mauled my 15 crusader squad and another 10 man bolter squad before chaplain, EC, and twin-flamer ironclad rolled in and mopped them up along with a weird boy, 3 bikes, a lone killer kan, and a painboy. My EC single handled killed the bike squad, pain boy, and 8 of the boyz. Chaplain re-rolls were a huge help. Ironclad was a beast.

 

All in all... ....it felt pretty good.

 

The crusaders dying was bad positioning on my part. I let the orks get the charge and didn't know about the command point trick to get the counter-charge. I was sure I was sunk until my characters got in and killed handfuls of guys.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Power Weapons... Power Weapons everywhere... I guess the time of the traditional Templar is over as well... it's now time for Marshal Laeroth's rise...

I resent that comment. :P

[Stemplar]

You've only ever been able to take one initiate with a power weapon. I think honestly that mixed squads are going to be useful this edition now that you can rapid fire and still charge.

 

Dreadnoughts can't go in drop pods anymore sadly :(

 

The stormraven is an absolute beast now, and hurricane bolters are so cheap there's no reason not to include them lol. Also stormstrike missiles are no longer single use!

I think so got it now. Thanks! A free sword brother makes a big difference Too, right!?

 

Also, is it right we can mix up units in a transport as long as it stays at capacity? So 5 man crusader squad and 5 sternguard, for example, could fit in a Rhino??

[Firepower]

Hmm...to pile on Laeroth or not...

Nah. Just so long as you recognize my benevolent restraint in doing so of course

But all the louder doomcryers that have been whinging about Templars as Ultramarines in black all the years post roll would actually have something close to a real point right now. Without Tactics changing army wide rules, a Templar army is just an Ultra army with an extra squad. An extra squad which is just as viable as a shooty unit as a stabby one. Only the Characters actually steer builds towards CC with promises of juicy melee buffs, but they aren't mandatory, only 2 buff the squads, and only in a limited area.

I'm not throwing my fancy hat in the Black Ultras vinegar ring mind you. Tactics or something similar are inevitable, good or bad as they may turn out to be, but as it stands the effort to make a "Templar" army lands rather squarely on the shoulders of the player. Looking at our current options and dreaming of Tides is such an exercise: not much is there to enable it, and it's far more driven by what we want our armies to be rather than what they can do.

To which I can ironically but gleefully reply after all these years "Welcome to my world!"

[Stemplar]

No chapter tactics for anyone, at least we got our characters to put some flavor!.

And they're good! Looks like Helbrecht adds some goodness. Happy about my EC and Chaplain too.

[Acebaur]

Firepower, another thing to consider is that now there is zero reason to ever take a tac squad over a crusader squad. Previously if you wanted a combi on the Sgt the tac was a cheap way to do so, because you didn't have pay extra powder the SB. Now the SB is free and crusaders have multiple other advantages over the tacs.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

The thing is that five man shooty crusaders will be even more effective with their 2nd special weapon added in. On the other hand power weapons are far cheaper than special weapons iirc. Can a Sword Brother take both, a combi weapon and a melee weapon? Can't remember from what leaks i saw...

[AndrewChristlieb]

Yes they can swap their weapons for combis and any of the typical melee weapons.

[BitsHammer]

I spent some time digging through the Astartes Index last night largely in part because I have a strong desire to condense as much as I can about the new edition into my head, and with that I felt it was worth sharing somethings of note:
 

✠ Sword Brethren are essentially back. Company Veterans are a wonderful source for a unit of up to 5 models (minimum of one vet and one sarge) who come with bolt pistols and chainswords. They can be kitted with a number of options, and are able to take storm shields to keep them from being AP'd out as easilly. Still only 1 wound, they are still a noteworthy option for people who want Sword Brethren without running Sternguard or Vanguard squads. And they have access to bikes where they get a bump to 2 wounds and T5. If you're taking them for melee, bikes are likely the best method in terms of crunch just because they gain both mobility and durability. Using them as a replacement for a squad of combis or special weapons in lieu of Sternguard (as Sternguard lose their 30" range -2 AP bolters for swapping) is likely the best choice, and they can even share a Drop Pod with another small unit (of more vets or a character like the Emperor's Champion who wants to get up close and personal with the enemy) to sow chaos as soon as turn 1 if needed.

✠ Find room for an Ancient in your lists. Not only do they buff your Ld, they give your models a chance to fight when killed. On a 4+ a model who is slain within 6" of a banner gets to punch or shoot (as appropiate) one last time before going down (Bonus points if you have an Apothecary to try and bring the guy back on a 4+ the next turn too). Basically if you want a big unit, you,ll probably want one of these banners near it (or wrapped protectively by said unit) as it will let your models go down swinging and potentially taking their killer with them.

✠ The Emperor's Champion is basically a special character version of the Chapter Champion. Same base stats and the Chapter Champ gets rerolls against characters as well. Perhaps a cheaper alternative for smaller games?

✠ Just a reminder, because I forgot about this before, but most of the Razorback's options are twin linked, meaning double the shots. Twin Assault Cannons on one are going to shoot 12 S6, -1AP, D1 shots. Plus the Stormbolter shots. While not the level of the LRC, it's a cheaper option for your MSU style squads (for example: If you're running Company Vets in a tank, this is probably the best way to go if you're trying to keep points costs down). TL Heavy Flamers might be the shortest range turret option, but with them being Assault enjoy advancing and burninating with no penalites. You won't be as fast as a Baal Rhino chassis,  but you will have to less problems with glitter mysteriously ending up on your armour.

✠ For those who like keeping Devastators in their lists, rejoice for mixed weapons no longer prevent you from being useful. Mix it up for a cheaper unit that can handle more threats. My preference is no more than 2 kinds of weapons,  but monobuilds are still good since you can split fire to prevent overkilling things. Plus Plasma cannons don't suck anymore.

✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.

✠ Vindicators are still beastly weapons with S10, -3AP and D6 damage, but they only fire D3 shots against units of 4 or less and D6 against units of 5 or more. While I understand the change as a means to keep players from running it as our dedicated tank killer, frankly with that profile it feels like it works better against tanks and MCs than it does flushing out hordes like it used to. Due to points and FOC changes, I expect less of these to end up on the table at a time and instead be supported by other options.

[Schlitzaf]

So I played a single game of this new edition I got to say I am loving it overall. And while we lack some flavor given no tactics, I am content. The strength of our army has never been melee (well atleast compared to melee based armies), it's always been our the versatility of our Crusader Squads vs Tactical Marines (or Equivalent for other armies). I even like to describe Templars as more like "Plague Marines" than "Khorne Berzerkers", our strategy has always been attrition based not a one round kill. (I.e in 4th our two Melee Vows, lasted pass the first round of combat).* I forget the passage but we are just willing to take up the Bolter when necessary.

 

And if I had one complaint it's we can only take 1 Unit of Cenos. As Cenos enable us to field tide units and ignore Battle Shock. But that is neither here nor there. And the game just has a cleaner flow to it. I cannot exactly describe it but the game feels smoother and much nicer. And the change to how blasts work, is amazing. It speeds up the game several times compared to past editions. Especially vs template heavy armies. And finally the removal of the vehicle damage chart is very nice as it removes the hassel of trying to remember the damage chart. Ever sense the new chart of 6th-7th I could never remember what was what.

 

*Replace Feel No Pain with a Neophyte. And the comparison becomes more apparent.

[BitsHammer]

Frankly we should be limited to only one unit of Cenobyte servitors since there are only those three relics from Helsreach to bring into battle. Yes, it would be nice to have more, but all good things should be in moderation.

[Firepower]

If memory serves, in our 4th edition dex any Chaplain could take cenobytes to boost RZ. It was only later that Grim's particular entourage became the only ones.

 

But at least this way I only have to find and paint 3 proxies. Never had the cenobyte models, and getting them in metal these days is ludicrously pricey

[BitsHammer]

If memory serves, in our 4th edition dex any Chaplain could take cenobytes to boost RZ. It was only later that Grim's particular entourage became the only ones.

Ah, that's fair. I didn't play the 4th Ed Codex (I'm pretty sure I own a copy in a box though, but I own a good chunk of the older books), so I likely just forgot about it.

[d3m01iti0n]

Technically the Cenobytes should only affect Steel Legion lol. And Grimaldus hates them and left em in Helsreach.

[BitsHammer]

Technically the Cenobytes should only affect Steel Legion lol. And Grimaldus hates them and left em in Helsreach.

I was pretty sure he wanted to leave them, but the survivors insisted he take them anyways.

[Firepower]

"We lost 100 brothers and all we got were these lousy relics." Got brought up in the thread on Chapter Tactics possibilities, that consolidation into CC is once more a rule, which was the foundation of Righteous Zeal because the reaction movement was a consolidation move, which was the foundation of Tide. I wager it's extremely unlikely that we get that old rule back, but if we did, Tide would live again!

On the same topic, armor was a bit easier to deal with back then, and now it's much tougher. How much heavy firepower should be in a list now, because that determines how big of a tide we can put on the board.

[Stemplar]

Okay. Just had first game. Small, but still.

 

Loves it. Fast, fun, more intuitive than 7th. We still get big squads when you include neophytes. Rhinos get up good and close, and then you get to charge!! And the pistols in close combat? Hell yeah. Also ... Helbrecht gives us a LOT of re rolls. I'm New to all of this but man am I excited about it!

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm getting the resin ones local, buying the bendy finecast versions because I feel like I'll be getting a lot of use out of them and I don't want to worry about drops or chipping. If they don't look absolutely pristinely amazing that's okay, they're not there to be golden daemon winners just pieces that will see a lot of abuse.