8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[BitsHammer]

So I missed something earlier: you pay for the TFC twice. Once for the model, and a second time for the gun, despite it never mentioning that in the unit entry. The correct total cost is 134.

[Gendo]

You've only ever been able to take one initiate with a power weapon. I think honestly that mixed squads are going to be useful this edition now that you can rapid fire and still charge.

Dreadnoughts can't go in drop pods anymore sadly

The stormraven is an absolute beast now, and hurricane bolters are so cheap there's no reason not to include them lol. Also stormstrike missiles are no longer single use!

Now that gear is extra do i HAVE to take the assault cannon?

[Acebaur]

You've only ever been able to take one initiate with a power weapon. I think honestly that mixed squads are going to be useful this edition now that you can rapid fire and still charge.

Dreadnoughts can't go in drop pods anymore sadly

The stormraven is an absolute beast now, and hurricane bolters are so cheap there's no reason not to include them lol. Also stormstrike missiles are no longer single use!

Now that gear is extra do i HAVE to take the assault cannon?

Yes, but why wouldn't you? It doubled it's damage output since 7th ;)

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well... no, on a Stormraven you don't have to take the assault cannons. You can always take the heavy plasma cannons or las cannons instead ;)

[Firepower]

So is the Vindicator a point blank tank killer now?  Seems like it's equipped to put big holes in things, be it a squad or a chunk of metal.  I always loved Vindis partly because they synergize nicely with Tide, moving up the field along with the troops and making a scary fire magnet to take some heat off the footsloggers.  Worked just as well with drawing fire off the LRC before it became a major threat in itself, rather than a roaming box with squirt guns.   Part of the key to tide is making everything very scary and a very imminent threat.  Vindi always worked better than Predators and other long range threats in making that work.  The death of stun locking is a nice and dandy bonus to the Vindi as well.

[ThatOneMarshal]

I was debating between going tide or mech and I was leaning tide till I played some BF1 and got to ride around in a Mk 1( aka land raider).

 

How are people outfitting their crusader squads nowadays? I was thinking a power weapon on An intiate but with only one attack I might just shell out for a heavy weapon.

[Stemplar]

Okay. Weapons sorted on my Crusader squads and all set up to go. 4 initiates per squad, plus a Sword Brother, one squad all shooty and the rest CC with neophytes in tow set to ride in Rhinos.

Stormraven prepped, gassed up and ready to take the dreadnought.

 

I think that's it. Game time tomorrow.

[balordazul]

Yes Grim is the good budget HQ but Helbretch to me is still the go to guy.  

 

His re-roll to hit for both ranged and melee is a huge force multiplier.  Company vets with combi weapons and re-rolling the huge amount of shots on LRCs so great.  If lucky on the table you are going to be able to give your buff to two LRCs and two to three squads.  

 

I'm leaning we need a combo of CC and ranged support.  Other armies are going to be able to gun down the black tide as we have even more shooting in this edition.  Also I see Orks and Nids winning in CC as they have more CC focused units on the cheap.  

 

Right now I'm looking at a double LRC led by Helbretch build but I would love for the black tide to work again.  

[Acebaur]

Yeah, I'm feeling like I need to use Helbrecht despite the fact that I prefer to use my own Marshal just because he's sooo good.  I guess I need to pony up and buy the model. lol

[T-Rock]

I'm in the same boat. How has the model aged aesthetic and scale wise? I haven't seen one in person, unfortunately. 

[Firepower]

Oh hell, it didn't occur to me that Helbrecht's reroll buff affects nearby vehicles too, much less shooting. I got all starry eyed over melee rerolls

Pop out of the LRC and stay within 6 inches, maybe some combis on the escorts (they get expensive real fast, gotta pick between melee and shooty or break the bank), charge...yup, gonna need those new dice

Maybe for the company vet escort: 2 combi meltas, 3 melee guys with shields? 3 Melta shots with rerolls to hit and still enough punch to make the charge afterwards sting.

[balordazul]

Edit again I did the math wrong with the armor mitigation I had subtracted the mitigation vs what it should be. (Fixed)

 

Talking about a few more things and why I think Helbretch is the go to guy.

 

First and most important is that the highest Toughness value in the game outside possibly FW models is T8.  This means S5 attacks for both ranged and melee are key to taking on the T8 models with only needing a 5+ to wound.

 

Helbretch's auras buffs being re-rolls to hit and +1 S as a reminder.

 

Now lets look at some common values for Toughness and Strength and this is just basic recap stuff.

T3 = commonly cheap models found in abundance and now needs a S6 or higher to wound on a 2+ not a S5.

T4 = the most common Toughness value seen in the game and S6,7 only wound it on a 3+ now.

T8 = this covers the large models that are going to give people issues and you S4 and lower wounds on 6+ and S5 to S7 on a 5+.

 

S4 = the most common Strength value in the game but issues with T8 models.

S5 = In my opinion one of the best Strength value weapons for cost and something players need to keep an eye on.  The heavy bolter and heavy flamer are solid here as the heavy bolter is now double the cost of what it was but much better in 8th.  An axe for one more point than a sword is not a bad option.

S6 and S7 = The most important thing here is that you now wound T3 models on 2+ so assault cannons are going to be big here for points.  I also see a return of rifleman dread (double twin linked AC) that became popular in 5th with GKs.

S8 = Now we finally wound T4 on 2+ but a lot of these weapons are costly or have a -1 to hit in CC.  Not saying they are bad but do come with a price tag in points and usability.  

 

I know this is basic info but the To Wound system change is fundamentally the largest change for me in 8th as all the tools for the job has changed.  

 

Math might be off so please correct as I have a 6 month old doing a Waaagh around the living room.

 

Helbretch + Company Vets (with +1S buff) 

Power Sword vs Lighting Claw vs Thunder hammer

 

Power Sword 

MEQ

To is a (88%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 50% to do a wound

T3 model

To is a (88%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor ignored = 58% to kill the model

T8 w/3+

To is a (88%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 25% to get a wound through

 

Lighting Claw is slightly more than double the cost of a power sword

MEQ

To is a (88%) -> To wound (88%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 58% to do a wound

T3 model

To is a (88%) -> To wound (88%) -> Armor ignored = 77% to kill the model

T8 w/3+

To is a (88%) -> To wound (44%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) =  29% to get a wound through

 

Power Axe is only one point higher in cost than a power sword

MEQ

To is a (88%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 44% to do a wound

T3 model

To is a (88%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor ignored = 74% to kill the model

T8 w/3+

To is a (88%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) =  22% to get a wound through

 

Edit fixed the math here I had forgotten the -1 to hit.

Thunder hammer is slightly more than double the cost of a lightning claw

MEQ

To is a (75%) -> To wound (97%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 63% to do 3 wounds on a single model

T3 model

To is a (75%) -> To wound (97%) -> Armor ignored = 73% to kill the model

T8 w/3+

To is a (75%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) =  28% to do 3 wounds

 

My numbers are rounded to they will not be perfect but again if I did something wrong please correct it.

 

As of right now Company vets with a power sword paired with Helbretch seem to be the way to go for cost.  The thunder hammer will be good one the Company Vet Sgt. 

[Acebaur]

Keep in mind our Sword Brethren in a Crusader squad can now take a TH.

@FP I never thought about that either. Suddenly our LRC's are twin linked again and have a stupid number of shots!

Good analysis of benefits of Helbrecht. Having a perma S5 (and helbrecht is S6!) on a unit is pretty awesome. Also since a majority of tough vehicles and monsters are T8 having hammers and fists go to S9 is a pretty big buff.

[Metic]

Helbrecht and grimaldus are both so good now, I've always liked running multiple hq so I will likely run both.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I really like the idea of having many characters (including elite choices like apothecaries and standard bearers) in an army and especially having them stand out on crazy bases as they don't have to fit their unit anymore :)

Since the binary use of weapons (AV/T) is gone and there is no inherent benefit in bringing either the one or the other to neglect the according part of the enemies firepower, I feel like this edition might see the end of spammy lists, to an extent even in competitive environments. Sad thing i'll have to wake from that daydream sometime soon, come july :P

[balordazul]

Honor Guard is another option as it is a 2 man unit with 2 wound per and 2+ save.  They are melee character shields as you can't get an invul or a specialty ranged weapon.  They are also a good way to save Helbretch from Vin Assassin sniping him.

 

They are good for the points at 21 points but if you double the cost to add a relic blade lets see what they look like.  

 

 

Relic Blade with buff at S7

MEQ, T5, T6 or T7 w/3+

To is a (88%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 50% to do a wound

T3 model

To is a (88%) -> To wound (83%) -> Armor ignored = 73% to kill the model

T8 w/3+

To is a (88%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 25% to get a wound through

 

If only we had a way to get them to S8.  

 

Taking a moment to think of the Emperor's Champ next to Helbretch taking on an enemy character so S8.  Note when he is not within 1" of an enemy character it is the same as the relic blade.

 

MEQ w/3++

To is a (97%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor medication 3++ (-66%) = 27% chance per each of his 5 attacks to get through 

 

 

One last thing about Company Vet those combi weapons have a good chance hitting even when shooting both at the -1 to hit is a 75% hit chance or making for sure that you hit with that combi-melta.

 

Right now I'm thinking of Helbretch, EC, 4 man vets with goodies, Apothecary and 3 assault centurions inside a LRC.  

 

I know the models for centurions are not the best but I'm having high hopes for the assault version.  These guys are our new Dreads as we can't get CC dreads to combat via drop pods.

 

 

Wait how long until people get mad at BT for being OP?

[Firepower]

Trouble I've had is not blowing all my Elites on Helbrecht's one squad.  Apothecaries, Ancients, Veterans, Centurions and the like.  Assuming FOC is largely unchanged from 7th, I'll have to make a hard choice if I wanna take those Ironclads along too.

[Lysere]

Keep in mind Helbrechts bonus is models in 6 for the strength bonus, not units. Grimaldus allows units in six to get bonus attacks so it's quantity versus quality, both will have their uses just a matter of what you're running.

[Firepower]

Keep in mind Helbrechts bonus is models in 6 for the strength bonus, not units. Grimaldus allows units in six to get bonus attacks so it's quantity versus quality, both will have their uses just a matter of what you're running.

Grim's buff is pretty solid, and the Cenobytes are actually useful for the first time in ages, but while Helbrecht's Str boost is model by model, the re-rolls to hit are for adjacent units. Not gonna bother to do the math, but I would wager re-rolls result in more damage on average than the extra attacks on 6's. Not to mention Grim's bonus only applies during the Fight phase, where Helbrecht's is always on. That said, Helbrecht is also significantly more expensive than Grim. Both are surprisingly solid.

[balordazul]

Trouble I've had is not blowing all my Elites on Helbrecht's one squad.  Apothecaries, Ancients, Veterans, Centurions and the like.  Assuming FOC is largely unchanged from 7th, I'll have to make a hard choice if I wanna take those Ironclads along too.

Ya sometimes my eyes are bigger than my FOC and the points budget. :)

[Gendo]

So I missed something earlier: you pay for the TFC twice. Once for the model, and a second time for the gun, despite it never mentioning that in the unit entry. The correct total cost is 134.

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

[SlasherHawk]

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

 

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult. 

[Gendo]

 

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

 

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult. 

 

 

It's pretty confusing atm :( I rather pay a flat price as before. So the only models that include the gear in the price are the Characters right?

[JAG Templar]

 

 

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult.

It's pretty confusing atm :( I rather pay a flat price as before. So the only models that include the gear in the price are the Characters right?

Named Characters and bare bones Chaplains have wargear included in their costs, as do basic troops loadouts(boltpistol and chain sword etc).

 

Most other things seem to cost. There are exceptions like the Ironclad CC weapon which is included but they seem to be rare exceptions.

[AndrewChristlieb]

 

 

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult.

It's pretty confusing atm :( I rather pay a flat price as before. So the only models that include the gear in the price are the Characters right?

You're too kind, where I'm from we'd call it horse :cuss

 

Yes Characters are the only ones with equipment included.