8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[HenricusTyranicus]

FoC barely mean anything in 8th edition. It's ridiculously easy to get as many of any kind of slot as you want. One HQ, and boom, there you go.  

[Gendo]

Starting to get my spirits up regarding this new edition, forgot the pistol still counts as CCW and with the Chainsword we get 3 attacks (if i'm wrong don't tell me).

 

The heavy support and tanks are more reliable but more expensive which makes for a smaller army.

 

Seems like they went a "modular" approach with lone Elite models and lower point HQs, thought not sure how much an Apothecary is worth taking in a Crusader Squad (makes more sense on a bike).

 

A tide could work with all the buffs we can get from Characters, I don't see the point in transports at the moment unless we talking about a Razorback with heavy weapon and a heavy/special squad inside to support the Tide.

 

I'm leaning towards something like this:

 

-min/max Crusader Squads on foot and all the buffs we can get, take 3 ;)

-IG as a gun line, 10 man squad is 40pts and can take a Sniper Rifle for 2pts, take say 3-4 with voxcasters and Commander.

-An IG Heavy Weapon Support squad with 3 Lascannons shooting twice it's 72pts, take like 2.

-Add a Mortar squad for 27pts.

-Add some mobile anti-armour from Sisters of Battle or BT with the remainder of the points.

 

In my head looks epic :)

[balordazul]

Starting to get my spirits up regarding this new edition, forgot the pistol still counts as CCW and with the Chainsword we get 3 attacks (if i'm wrong don't tell me).

Sooooo I'm not telling you?

[Gendo]

Starting to get my spirits up regarding this new edition, forgot the pistol still counts as CCW and with the Chainsword we get 3 attacks (if i'm wrong don't tell me).

Sooooo I'm not telling you?

Alright, I can't live in ignorance.

[Firepower]

 

A tide could work with all the buffs we can get from Characters, I don't see the point in transports at the moment unless we talking about a Razorback with heavy weapon and a heavy/special squad inside to support the Tide.

 

The issue with Tide is mobility.  We don't have anything to help move us up the board at proper charging speed or chase down speedy enemies.  For now we are more or less ultramarines with great Characters and a stabby troop choice.  We won't be able to do anything significantly outside the box (like moving troops around outside of their boxes) until special attentions to Chapter rules come around.

 

But again, our Characters are indeed awesome.  Helbrecht's re-roll bubble affects all Templar units, including vehicles, and it affects shooting as well as melee.  Pop out of that LRC, stay within 6 inches, and turn every weapon on it into twin-linked :D

[Marshal_Roujakis]

A tide could work with all the buffs we can get from Characters, I don't see the point in transports at the moment unless we talking about a Razorback with heavy weapon and a heavy/special squad inside to support the Tide.

The issue with Tide is mobility. We don't have anything to help move us up the board at proper charging speed or chase down speedy enemies. For now we are more or less ultramarines with great Characters and a stabby troop choice. We won't be able to do anything significantly outside the box (like moving troops around outside of their boxes) until special attentions to Chapter rules come around.

But again, our Characters are indeed awesome. Helbrecht's re-roll bubble affects all Templar units, including vehicles, and it affects shooting as well as melee. Pop out of that LRC, stay within 6 inches, and turn every weapon on it into twin-linked

Isn't it already?

;)

Starting to get my spirits up regarding this new edition, forgot the pistol still counts as CCW and with the Chainsword we get 3 attacks (if i'm wrong don't tell me).

Sooooo I'm not telling you?

Alright, I can't live in ignorance.

Instead of an outright extra attack, you can shoot pistols while still engaged in melee, but you can only shoot at the closest target.

[Gendo]

Deploying closest to the enemy and hoping for a good Run roll could do it, the way i used to play my LRC, but now the lack of Assault Vehicle puts me off.

 

Every transport seems an expensive "pay do move" fee and still charging on turn 2, rather take my chances with an on foot squad and use the extra points in supporting the advance.

[Gendo]

 

Instead of an outright extra attack, you can shoot pistols while still engaged in melee, but you can only shoot at the closest target.

 

 

 

Alright not bad, do extra wounds spill over?

 

 

 

[Acebaur]

Trouble I've had is not blowing all my Elites on Helbrecht's one squad.  Apothecaries, Ancients, Veterans, Centurions and the like.  Assuming FOC is largely unchanged from 7th, I'll have to make a hard choice if I wanna take those Ironclads along too.

 

Vanguard Detachment is your friend here. 1-2 HQ and 3-6 Elites. Troops are 0-3 and everything else is 0-2. Great detachment for that really bloated Elites slot. 

 

 

 

Instead of an outright extra attack, you can shoot pistols while still engaged in melee, but you can only shoot at the closest target.

 

 

 

Alright not bad, do extra wounds spill over?

 

 

 

 

 

What do you mean? Multiple damage weapons do not spill wounds over, so if you do 6 damage from a lascannon to a 1 wound model, you only kill that one model. Also keep in mind that while you can shoot the pistol in combat, its only on your turn because its done in the shooting phase. 

 

 

Helbrecht's 6" for models isn't that big of a deal. It's going to be everyone in combat with him and depending on where he is maybe a few models from another unit. The re-rolls are really whats going to get the kills, the extra strength is just icing. 

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I have seen it quite a bit, but how do Invulnerable Saves work this edition?

 

Is it similar to FnP, where if a unit fails his Armor Sv. he can do an Invulnerable Save after?

Is it a counter-balance to the AP of the weapon similar to Cover Saves?

or is it just like the regular Invulnerable Save? where if the enemies AP is so high that you can't get an Armor Save anymore, you just do an Invulnerable Save instead

 

Also, Apothecary seems to be a great logical choice if you're running Centurions or Assault Terminators... they'd be an unstoppable wall as long as the Apothecary doesn't get sniped...

[Acebaur]

Invul saves are exactly the same as 7th except against mortal wounds. 

 

I'm not super worried about the apothecaries getting taken out, they have 4 wounds and power armor. You can even put them on a bike for 5 wounds and T5.  

[BitsHammer]

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult.

He also has a flamer.

 

I find Power easier for quick casual play list building and points better for something arranged out in advance.

[BitsHammer]

Small note about wounds: while wounds caused by normal weapons don't spill over, Mortal Wounds do.

[Firepower]

Are mortal wounds only those that are listed as "Causes X mortal wounds" or can you create them some other way?  I was confused as to how a Melta did D6 wounds before it was clarified that those wounds can only go into one target.  Though I did like the mental image of a Templar melting 6 baddies in a single sweep of his handheld nuclear reactor. :D

[Acebaur]

Yes mortal wounds are only caused if they say they are mortal wounds. 

 

As for the melta example, think about it this way. It's not wounds, it's damage. So you roll to wound, success! Do they save? No. Ok how much damage do they take? D6 in this case

[gang_chong]

One thing I worry is that we can't deny the witcheries by ourselves. We don't have Adamantium Will rule anymore, which is not applicable in 8th Ed anyway. But almost every psychic shenanigans can do Smite... that does d3 mortal wounds or d6 if they are lucky and it can wreck LRC quite quickly. I lost my LRC on turn 1 with Smite sorceries in my first 8th ed game.

One precious lessen I got is; Do not suffer the witches to live!

[Firepower]

Yes mortal wounds are only caused if they say they are mortal wounds. 

 

As for the melta example, think about it this way. It's not wounds, it's damage. So you roll to wound, success! Do they save? No. Ok how much damage do they take? D6 in this case

 

Yeah, makes perfect sense, just seemed odd to see D6 wounds in the profile without that context, which created a confusing but intriguing mental image- see above. :lol:

[Castellan Doren]

I was thinking on D6 damage, if you roll 6 for damage they roll for 6 saves. Not one save if failed take 6 damage.

 

But i haven't played 8th yet.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I just hoped though that there would be a simple rule regarding AP and Str v Toughness... like if the strength of the weapon exceeds the toughness, but not double the toughness, then AP-1 or something... just so that S6 and S7 has value against T8... or so that MEQ have an advantage in penetrating weak species armor...

[Firepower]

 

Trouble I've had is not blowing all my Elites on Helbrecht's one squad.  Apothecaries, Ancients, Veterans, Centurions and the like.  Assuming FOC is largely unchanged from 7th, I'll have to make a hard choice if I wanna take those Ironclads along too.

 

Vanguard Detachment is your friend here. 1-2 HQ and 3-6 Elites. Troops are 0-3 and everything else is 0-2. Great detachment for that really bloated Elites slot. 

 

 

I haven't seen any detachment rules, but I was under the impression that they were an obsolete idea in the brave new world of 8th edition.  Of course without DT LRC that presents its own serious limitation for my typical big tank-cannon tank-cannon tank trio. :teehee:

[SlasherHawk]

 

 

It's TFC 28(in Heavy) + Gunner 36 + TFC 30(in Ranged)= 94

Do you need to add the servo arms x2 and the plasma cutter on for the Gunner? Which brings it up another 31 points.

 

Making a list until they bring out an army builder is proving rather difficult.

He also has a flamer.

 

I find Power easier for quick casual play list building and points better for something arranged out in advance.

 

 

Ah yes, adds another 9 points on to my calculation.

 

Yeah I think that once the army builder is out I will be using points much more. I'm just working on my Templar's and Emperors Children lists to 1000pts for a test game at the moment. Will give you my thoughts once its been played at the weekend. (I play both armies, a friend of mine will be borrowing the Children)

[Kastor Krieg]

Trouble I've had is not blowing all my Elites on Helbrecht's one squad. Apothecaries, Ancients, Veterans, Centurions and the like. Assuming FOC is largely unchanged from 7th, I'll have to make a hard choice if I wanna take those Ironclads along too.

Vanguard Detachment is your friend here. 1-2 HQ and 3-6 Elites. Troops are 0-3 and everything else is 0-2. Great detachment for that really bloated Elites slot.

I haven't seen any detachment rules, but I was under the impression that they were an obsolete idea in the brave new world of 8th edition. Of course without DT LRC that presents its own serious limitation for my typical big tank-cannon tank-cannon tank trio.

Formations are not a thing anymore. Detachments are the ONLY thing now. There's 14 in the main rulebook. Possibly more will come in a codex for each faction, specifically. All they do is two things: They give you an "FOC" of a kind to field your army in one way or another. All of the guys in a detachment have to have a common Keyword (IMPERIAL / ASTARTES / <CHAPTER>, etc), this means your army is Battle Forged. If this happens, you get the +1, +3 or +whatever Command Points from the Detachment. That's the 2nd thing they do.

Now, how deep in the IMPERIAL > LOYALIST ASTARTES > <CHAPTER> structure your common denominator is, that shows what access to Stratagem tables you have. Remember Apocalypse Stratagems? Exactly like those, game changers from redeployment, through rerolls and other really useful stuff. You pay to use those with... Command Points! That's why it pays to have a Battle Forged army.

Now, if you field a unit of IG, a unit of Templars and a unit of Crimson Fists, their only common Keyword is IMPERIAL. This means that you get access only to the IMPERIAL stratagem table. If you ditch the IG in favour of all-Marines, your common Keywords are IMPERIAL and LOYALIST ASTARTES. Boom, two tables. You run pure Black Tide? IMPERIAL, LOYALIST ASTARTES and MOST ZEALOUS CHAPTER OF THEM ALL tables are yours to use ;)

[Acebaur]

I was thinking on D6 damage, if you roll 6 for damage they roll for 6 saves. Not one save if failed take 6 damage.

 

But i haven't played 8th yet.

That's not how it works. You roll to see if you wound just like before. If the model fails its save, then you see how much damage it takes. Most weapons are damage 1 but some are more or are random

[Castellan Doren]

 

I was thinking on D6 damage, if you roll 6 for damage they roll for 6 saves. Not one save if failed take 6 damage.

 

But i haven't played 8th yet.

That's not how it works. You roll to see if you wound just like before. If the model fails its save, then you see how much damage it takes. Most weapons are damage 1 but some are more or are random

That makes negative saves worth far more than d# after save.

 

Interesting.

[Lysere]

One thing I worry is that we can't deny the witcheries by ourselves. We don't have Adamantium Will rule anymore, which is not applicable in 8th Ed anyway. But almost every psychic shenanigans can do Smite... that does d3 mortal wounds or d6 if they are lucky and it can wreck LRC quite quickly. I lost my LRC on turn 1 with Smite sorceries in my first 8th ed game.

 

One precious lessen I got is; Do not suffer the witches to live!

Well smite can only target the closest unit and the spammable versions are only doing 1 to d3 mortal wounds rather than the d3 to d6. (Ie non hq psyker models)