8th Edition and A Fist Full of Zeal

[AndrewChristlieb]

LRC holds 16 not 20.

[AlmightyWalrus]

How are you squeezing 20-man Crusader Squads into 16-capacity LRCs?

[T-Rock]

Uhh. Clown car style? Lap sitting?

 

In all seriousness, I was conflating our max squad size with the LRC's capacity. I guess I've been running skyhammer longer than I thought...

[Acebaur]

I have been thinking about taking a couple of medium sized crusader squads (7-8) and stuffing them both into an LRC with a character. This does a few things, it allows me to include a few cheap bodies in the form of neophytes (also fluffy) but still take multiple power weapons and special/weapons.

 

Also it allows you to have multiple chances to charge in to make sure that you get stuck in. Or also to charge multiple units in different directions.

[T-Rock]

I think this is going to be the way to go for most units. The fact our character buffs are made via aura allows multille units to benefit, but also has more flexibility with engagement and access to special weapons. Combine that with the heavy/special ability of our crusader squads and that allows us a lot of options. The fact power weapons are so cheap helps as well. It'd make sense to vary up the builds of each squad so you can further specialize them.

 

There is one drawback though, due the whole "interrupt attack phase" strategem though. Let's say you engage a large unit 20+ orks. If your crusaders were in one squad, they'd get all their attacks in. Since they are in two though, your output would be halved because once he spends that command point all 20 of his orks get to attack before you can activate your second unit.

 

Just something to consider.

[Lysere]

Vanguard can take double chainswords. I only just realized this, and I'm already tempted to put together a ten man squad of them. That's 41 attacks, add in Grimaldus for re rolls and more attacks and that's a lot of dice.

 

Is it the best, no. It is however very inexpensive all things considered.

[Acebaur]

I think this is going to be the way to go for most units. The fact our character buffs are made via aura, it allows for smaller units to benefit, but also have more flexibility in terms of engagement and access to special weapons. Combine that with the heavy/special ability of our crusader squads and that allows us a lot of options. The fact power weapons are so cheap helps as well will help. It'd make sense to vary up the builds of each squad so you can further specialize them.

 

There is one drawback though, due the whole "interrupt attack phase" strategies though. Let's say you engage a large unit 20+ orks. If your crusaders were in one squad, they'd get all their attacks in. Since they are in two though, your output would be halved because once he spends that command point all 20 of his orks get to attack.

 

Just something to consider.

 

Good point, though I'd imagine that you are going to gun down a good many of those orks in the shooting phase prior to charging and also with your first swings.  Doing some quick math, a LRC with no buffs from characters will kill just over 12 ork boyz in a single round of shooting. 

 

Another thing I just though of, going along with this, is company vets(and HG) can be taken in units of 2. So you could take an 8 man crusader squad and pop in 2 CV's SB in a rhino for extra goodness. This actually fits the fluff pretty well. Most of the time when we read about SB they aren't fielding in units consisting of only SB they are scattered amongest the Initiates, leading by example from the front.  I also think that even though the Crusader squad lists the SB in place of a "Sgt" it could just as easily be a veteran Initiate who has not yet been inducted into the Marshal's household. 

[Castellan Doren]

Vanguard can take double chainswords. I only just realized this, and I'm already tempted to put together a ten man squad of them. That's 41 attacks, add in Grimaldus for re rolls and more attacks and that's a lot of dice.

 

Is it the best, no. It is however very inexpensive all things considered.

Duuuddee. Might be something to drop on some poor guy once or twice a year.

[Gendo]

I have been thinking about taking a couple of medium sized crusader squads (7-8) and stuffing them both into an LRC with a character. This does a few things, it allows me to include a few cheap bodies in the form of neophytes (also fluffy) but still take multiple power weapons and special/weapons.

 

Also it allows you to have multiple chances to charge in to make sure that you get stuck in. Or also to charge multiple units in different directions.

 

Been thinking that as well but is 7-8 man squad enough to take down one enemy unit? or you mean both attack the same?

 

And how do you give buffs to the LRC? Doesn't have the BT keyword.

 

Edit: is the <Chapter> keyword insert your own?

[BitsHammer]

<Chapter> is a "replace with your own" thing.

[Gendo]

<Chapter> is a "replace with your own" thing.

Thanks, but wait...Why do I need Strength on the LRC, is the strength buff only for CC then?

[BitsHammer]

 

<Chapter> is a "replace with your own" thing.

 

Thanks, but wait...Why do I need Strength on the LRC, is the strength buff only for CC then?

Yes, it's for CC only because you can make attacks and potentially run a heretic over, paste his foul corpse and drag what's left of it across the battlefield as an example for those who stand against the Emperor.

[Gendo]

I've just found out I'm confused about the Combat in 8th..

 

I make the charge move and then pile in 3" ?? And then after resolving CC attacks i consolidate 3" why, is it over after one round?

 

And what about "locked in combat", not a thing anymore?

[redmapa]

I've just found out I'm confused about the Combat in 8th..

 

I make the charge move and then pile in 3" ?? And then after resolving CC attacks i consolidate 3" why, is it over after one round?

 

And what about "locked in combat", not a thing anymore?

 

You consolidate simply because you are in combat and you are locked in combat with a unit as long as you are within 1'' of it though that unit can just fall back to get out of combat at the expense of being kind of useless for a turn.

 

Also remember that when you are locked in combat you can fire your pistols at the unit that you are locked with in your shooting phase.

[BitsHammer]

Pile ins occur when you activate a unit during the fight phase. At the end of that unit's activation it can consolidate another 3" to allow stragglers or models who killed their way out of engagement to get back into engagement (you can use this to drag in other units too, but they can fight you for doing so).

 

If you surround a unit that doesn't have the fly keyword in such a way it can't move out of combat then it's stuck in, otherwise it can break from combat in exchange for it's other actions (pending special rules). Units with fly have an easier time hopping out of combat so they get to still shoot and then there are units who have bespoke rules that let them charge after bailing out of combat.

 

Also of note, you can only target a unit you charge, not one you consolidate into when declaring attacks.

[Gendo]

Pile ins occur when you activate a unit during the fight phase. At the end of that unit's activation it can consolidate another 3" to allow stragglers or models who killed their way out of engagement to get back into engagement (you can use this to drag in other units too, but they can fight you for doing so).

 

If you surround a unit that doesn't have the fly keyword in such a way it can't move out of combat then it's stuck in, otherwise it can break from combat in exchange for it's other actions (pending special rules). Units with fly have an easier time hopping out of combat so they get to still shoot and then there are units who have bespoke rules that let them charge after bailing out of combat.

 

Also of note, you can only target a unit you charge, not one you consolidate into when declaring attacks.

 

Get it now, went through 7th to compare.

 

Before we had to be in unit coherency (2 inch) even in CC, now we need to be within 1" hence the 3" pile in?

 

What about the new rules, it says any model within 1" of the enemy and any model within 1" of that can attack, does it mean only the first 2 rows can attack and you pretty much need to surround the enemy to be able to attack with all the models?

[BitsHammer]

Pretty much. It's basically the same 2" bubble, buuuuuut models with larger bases have an easier time getting their attacks now (Marines, Terminators, ect).

 

Also since we don't have to reach b2b we can stop short of an enemy model, pile in an arc around the side to get models into range and then consolidate further around the enemy to try and trap them. Basically the defense to that is to go first and lock larger units up by pushing in to b2b to prevent them from arcing their stuff around as easilly.

 

Yes, position matters for LOS (can't shoot what you can't see for example), protecting charging units from Supporting Fire (blocking LOS with transports for example while you charge a flank unit), protecting your unit from being surrounded on a charge (putting other units nearby so that they can't consolidate in without dragging the oher units into combat giving you extra attacks, and even how we fight.

 

Wile vehicles facings went away movement in general because super important to use properly and effectively.

[Gendo]

Pretty much. It's basically the same 2" bubble, buuuuuut models with larger bases have an easier time getting their attacks now (Marines, Terminators, ect).

 

Also since we don't have to reach b2b we can stop short of an enemy model, pile in an arc around the side to get models into range and then consolidate further around the enemy to try and trap them. Basically the defense to that is to go first and lock larger units up by pushing in to b2b to prevent them from arcing their stuff around as easilly.

 

Yes, position matters for LOS (can't shoot what you can't see for example), protecting charging units from Supporting Fire (blocking LOS with transports for example while you charge a flank unit), protecting your unit from being surrounded on a charge (putting other units nearby so that they can't consolidate in without dragging the oher units into combat giving you extra attacks, and even how we fight.

 

Wile vehicles facings went away movement in general because super important to use properly and effectively.

 

I take it a 20 man squad would not be able to surround a unit effectively considering you have 3" to pile in and go around with so many bodies?

[BitsHammer]

 

Pretty much. It's basically the same 2" bubble, buuuuuut models with larger bases have an easier time getting their attacks now (Marines, Terminators, ect).

Also since we don't have to reach b2b we can stop short of an enemy model, pile in an arc around the side to get models into range and then consolidate further around the enemy to try and trap them. Basically the defense to that is to go first and lock larger units up by pushing in to b2b to prevent them from arcing their stuff around as easilly.

Yes, position matters for LOS (can't shoot what you can't see for example), protecting charging units from Supporting Fire (blocking LOS with transports for example while you charge a flank unit), protecting your unit from being surrounded on a charge (putting other units nearby so that they can't consolidate in without dragging the oher units into combat giving you extra attacks, and even how we fight.

Wile vehicles facings went away movement in general because super important to use properly and effectively.

 

I take it a 20 man squad would not be able to surround a unit effectively considering you have 3" to pile in and go around with so many bodies?

It's easier to surround when you have more models, harder than when you don't. Ideally you can use charge distance to end models within 1" of the enemy model while wrapping around the target unit and then usie consolidation moves to finish tightening the noose by ensuring your models are in base to base contact and leave less than 1" clearance between them when surrounding a unit so that the unit can't legally move through the gaps because they won't fit.

 

Wrapping vehicles is even easier than that and supports running the LRC, or running vehicles in groups so that they can't be wrapped as easilly.

[balordazul]

Here is some more fun math to take a little closer look at power weapons outside of Helbretch's buffs.  Also a link to the math I did when using the buffs. 

 

Power Weapon break down with rounded values for easy math.  My mind is not working correctly to do the math for % success, to point cost efficiency formula right now.  

 

 

Vs MEQ

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 28% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 33% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 29% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (75%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 37% to do a wound

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 36% to do damage

Siege Drill (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 55% to do 3 damage to a single model 

Relic Blade (honor guard) (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 33.55% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Eviscerator (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 42% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 42% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

 

Vs T3 w/5+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 44% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 44% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor medication 6+ (-16%) = 48% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (88%) -> Armor mitigated = 58% to do a wound

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 42% to do damage

Siege Drill (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 55% to do 3 damage to a single model 

Relic Blade (honor guard) (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 55% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Eviscerator (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 42% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (50%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 42% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T5 w/3+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 19% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 25% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 29% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (55%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 27% to do a wound

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (50%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 28% to do damage

Siege Drill (66%) -> To wound (84%) -> Armor mitigated = 55% to do 3 damage to a single model 

Relic Blade (honor guard) (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 33.55% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Eviscerator (50%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 33% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (50%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 33% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T8 w/3+ save

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (16%) -> Armor mitigation  6+ (-16%) = 9% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 16% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 14.52% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (29%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 14% to do a wound

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 21.55% to do damage

Siege Drill (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigated = 44% to do 3 damage to a single model 

Relic Blade (honor guard) (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 19% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Eviscerator (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigated = 25% to do d3 damage to a single model 

Chain Fist (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigated = 25% to do 2 damage to a single model 

 

Vs T8 w/2+ save (land raider)

Power Sword (66%) -> To wound (16%) -> Armor mitigation  5+ (-33%) = 8% to do a wound

Power Axe (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 14.5% to do a wound

Power Maul/Lance (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 3+ (-66%) = 13% to do a wound

Lightning Claw (66%) -> To wound (29%) -> Armor mitigation 4+ (-50%) = 13% to do a wound

Power Fist/Thunder Hammer (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 19% to do damage

Siege Drill (66%) -> To wound (66%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 37% to do 3 damage to a single model 

Relic Blade (honor guard) (66%) -> To wound (33%) -> Armor mitigation 5+ (-33%) = 16% to do D3 wounds to a single model

Eviscerator (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 21.55% to do d3 damage to a single model 

 

Chain Fist (50%) -> To wound (50%) -> Armor mitigation 6+ (-16%) = 21.55% to do 2 damage to a single model 

[BitsHammer]

I just wanted to point out that against everything except Quantum Shielding the Thunder Hammer will trumomthe Power Fist in final damage as it's a fixed 3 while the Power Fist is D3. The reason Quantum Shielding makes the difference is that the model gets to ignore the damage if it rolls under the damage being inflicted. So it has a 0/6 chance against a damage of 1, 1/6 against a damage of 2 and 2/6 against a damage of three while it always gets a 2/6 against the Thunderhammer's damage.

[Firepower]

Gaaah too many numbers! Just tell me which shiny purple thing to smash/stab/poke/cleave with!

[Gendo]

Gaaah too many numbers! Just tell me which shiny purple thing to smash/stab/poke/cleave with!

Lightning claws for MEQ and worst, Thunder Hammer for anything else. I guess I'll take a sword then.

[Firepower]

Is dual lightning claw still an extra attack?

[Gendo]

Is dual lightning claw still an extra attack?

 

Yes, and 2 are 13pts, about the same price per attack as a Sword but more effective and wounds rerolls.